Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121540374#Comment_121540374

Fantastic poetic irony that, after him successfully lobbying to halt the Green Line link in, the underground terminus for Metrolink is now directly under his family home I believe.

https://x.com/transportdublin/status/1740065698083131482?s=20

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121542059#Comment_121542059

I always thought that was a rental property, "family" may mean its the kids there. Either way, that property has been an obvious reason for some of his campaigning and the media never, ever mention it.

That he's funding The Currency (the loan note) needs to be made more obvious too.

gjim

Regarding the O'Connell St ML/Luas interconnection, the original "preferred route" for the Green Luas "cross-city" extension was much simpler and nearly 80m cheaper in the option estimates - and was to run both directions down Westmoreland St and both sides of the O'Connell St median - a completely sane and reasonable set-up compared to the needless complexity of splitting the directions along two separate paths. DCC had wanted a new bridge for buses - what is now the Rosie Hackett - but didn't want to pay for it so fought tooth and nail for a more complex option and the RPA - as it was then known - for expediency came up with "Option F" which is what was delivered and bundled the cost of the bridge into the Luas cross-city budget in order to get DCC on-side. One result is that the Red stop has to be where it is on lower abbey st to allow access to Marlborough and O'Connell stops. If the original preferred option had been built then a much simpler and better connection between red and green lines could have been provided and there would have been more flexibility - the Red stop could be moved west to improve ML interchange without making the Green Luas connection much worse.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121542145#Comment_121542145

Option F allows turnback @ Parnell for South -> North services though which is a decent plurality of services.

gjim

Modern tram systems don't need loops for turn-back. Old-style trams only had doors one side - so loops were required at the end of lines. Modern trams (like Luas) have doors on both so do not have to go around in a loop to change direction - a simple cross switch works. Before the cross-city extension, we had turn-back at Stephens Green without any loops.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121542293#Comment_121542293

Plenty of modern systems are still single-sided - Amsterdam has actually moved towards single-sided trams in recent decades, bar one line, but they also do lots of other inexplicable things (on-board ticket offices).

gjim

By "modern", I mean built from scratch in the last 40 or 50 years. But yeah, if the tracks and loops are already there, then there isn't much point in paying for extra doors on newer rolling stock which will never be used because of the route topology.

But in any case, Luas trams are bidirectional so don't require a loop to turn-back.

bk

You know it is funny, only earlier today I was thinking that a solution to all of this, would be if they simply ran a second south bound Green line Luas track down O’Connell Street and move the Red Luas line stop to the West side of OCS, behind Arnotts.

• South bound Luas stop at GPO, so now the Red Luas stop at Arnotts is only 50 meters from both Green line stops at GPO
• Second south bound Luas stop at OCS Upper across from the Metrolink station, so only 20 meters away, rather then 220 meters away at Parnell Square
• Red Luas stop at Arnotts now slightly closer to the Metrolink station (350m versus 450m), but more importantly, no need to cross OCS and no pedestrian crossings between the two.
• Red Luas stop closer to Henry Street, with no pedestrian crossings, which let’s be honest, is where the majority of the users of the Abbey St Luas stop are going too.

On the last point it is a pity that the Arnotts Northern Quarter development never happened, the plan included a new pedestrian retail street between this location of Middle Abbey Street and Henry street, which would have been perfect for connectivity. Instead it looks like they are going to build a **** hotel there now. On the upside, it seems they are going to remove 150 car parking spaces from the Arnotts car park, which should reduce the number of cars using Prince’s Street.

This would all greatly improve the connectivity between the red, green Luas lines and Metrolink.

This would put the Red Luas stop just 350 meters from the Metrolink stop.

BTW the distance between the current Red Luas stop on abbey street and the Metrolink station is 450 meters.

Interestingly that isn’t even a usual connection distance for the Red Luas line. At the next stop at Busaras, the distance between the Luas at Busaras and the DART platforms in Connolly Station is also about 450 meters and slightly further along at Docklands Station, the distance to the Luas stop is 500 meters. People make these connections every day.

Though I do think we should try and make reasonable changes to improve connectivity.

Testcard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121542080#Comment_121542080

And of course the Currency features Colm McCarthy as a writer…

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121542145#Comment_121542145

How much of this is based in fact? Given that the Luas red line Abbey Street stop was conceived before plans for Luas cross city were finalised.

gjim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121542799#Comment_121542799

Why would the prior existence of the Abbey St stop suggest anything I wrote was made up?

I've said that the Abbey stop has to be where it is - it cannot be moved - because of the Green line cross-city route, not that it was constructed after BX. During the consultation phase for the cross-city route selection - we were presented with options A to E - none of which involved splitting the line. Option F - the selected option - was added later and immediately selected without consultation - effectively a back-room deal between the RPA and DCC. It was literally the worst of all the options - from the cheapest, shortest and most logical/simple direct extension down Westmoreland/O'Connell to the longest, most expensive option which involved swinging around the back of Trinity via Westland Row but at least offered DART integration.

Unfortunately the original options document seems to have disappeared from web but even at the time, on this very forum, people were complaining that the selected route was a dog's dinner: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/66541176/#Comment_66541176

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121542882#Comment_121542882

You said that the result of the cross city routing is that the Abbey Street stop on Red luas is located where it is. But that's not the case because the stop was built before cross city route was chosen.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121542959#Comment_121542959

Which frankly makes the choose location even more stupid.

gjim

No I didn't say that - read it again. Literally I said "One result is that the Red stop has to be where it is on lower abbey st to allow access to Marlborough and O'Connell stops." - and this was in the context of a discussion of how to improve ML and Luas integration and the possibility of rearranging Luas stops.

I.e. that there is NO option to move the Red line stop - because of the BX/D routing choice.

You're reading of this sentence is that I'm claiming that the Abbey St stop was build where it is because of the BX/D routing - which we can both agree would be patent nonsense given the timelines involved.

bk

I.e. that there is NO option to move the Red line stop - because of the BX/D routing choice.

I wouldn’t actually say that, you could move the Red Luas stop to outside Arnotts and the Marlborough stop while further would still be within a reasonable distance.

The Marlborough stop would then be 200 meters from a possible Abbey Street stop.

To put that in context, the Metrolink to Arnotts stop would then be 350 meters rather than 450 meters. And the Metrolink to Parnell street south bound would be 230 meters.

You would be trading a slightly worse red/green line integration for a better red line/Metrolink integration. I assume much more folks would use the latter than the former. So it might be a trade worth make.

Of course ideally also move the Southern green line to OCS for the best option.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121542713#Comment_121542713

The Currency are probably the most pro infrastructure and residential media org in the country.

Have a read of Sean Keyes stuff, or Ronan Lyons. Or Stephen Kinsella.

https://thecurrency.news/articles/126454/sean-keyes-on-investing-the-investments-we-dont-make/

https://thecurrency.news/articles/102736/stephen-kinsella-how-to-fix-irelands-infrastructure-deficit/

Tell me any other media organisation that has this level of detailed discussion on these topics.

The Currency has lots of mini investors because it needed start up financing. One of those was going to be a certain other media investor but they were smart enough to reject that. McDowell deserves criticism for the quality of that piece but he is a democratic and does like good quality debate. I can disagree with McCarthy too but it doesn’t mean it is a conspiracy.

Brightlights66

From about 2:14 into this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KOOuh7e6r4&t=180s

4 sets of lights, between the LUAS and the proposed metro entrance, that I can see.

ArmaniJeanss

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121543784#Comment_121543784

But pedestrians going Red Line to/from Metro won't have to use all 4 - they will only have to cross the road once at their single chosen set of traffic lights.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121543784#Comment_121543784

I've heard this before

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121543784#Comment_121543784

Wow! LMAO

You claimed the following:

There is a set of lights at Upper/Middle Abbey Street, a set of lights at Henry St/North Earl St., a set of lights at Cathedral Street, and a set of lights around the proposed metrolink entrance.

There are no lights at any of these junctions, here are screenshots from Google maps:

First The Abbey Street Luas Stop, note you can cross the street by the Luas stop without pedestrian lights just at the Luas platform. Note the sort of zebra crossing on the right hand side and the white lines on left .

Next up Sackville Place, note no pedestrian lights:

Next up North Earl street, no pedestrian lights (walking North): BTW this one is particularly funny as North Earl street is a pedestrian street, so I’ve no idea how you thought there would be pedestrian lights crossing here:

Finally Cathedral Street, no pedestrian lights walking North :

And for bonus points, on the West side of OCS, Prince Street North, again no pedestrian lights:

So again to be clear, there is only one set of pedestrian lights a person walking between the red Luas stop on Abbey Street and the Metrolink station would need to cross. Basically the only lights are where ever you decide to cross OCS, either at Abbey Street, across by the spire or further up by the Metrolink.

Don’t get me wrong, I think this connection can definitely be improved, but it isn’t as bad as you are claiming.

spacetweek

Are we looking at the same video? It’s 1 set of lights. The rest of the road junctions are with pedestrianised streets where pedestrians don’t have to wait at a light.

Sam Russell

Mod: Can we stop the lights. By the time Metrolink is carrying passengers, the whole OCS might be pedestrianised.

We should await ABP.

gjim

Utilities prep work for ML?

Road Reinstatement/Resurfacing works scheduled to begin Monday the 8th of January 2024 by KLM Utilities on behalf of TII Metrolink.

Can't wait until this thread is full of such links.

L1011

Might be ground conditions/ground penetrating radar work, as ML is going to be in an open cutting alongside the bypass in places as far as I remember (and can't be arsed checking)

Strumms

11 years away…… it’s a wonderful country it really is… politicians sticking it to the citizens…

and the word used today by that Eamonn Ryan… “ hope to be “…. Hope… not after everything will, or should or shall…

‘hope’….

That’s as much as he is willing to give, a bit more tokenism…

this the same character that wants us all out of our cars or paying congestion charges…. When asked about what we can do instead to get around Dublin ? He ‘hopes’ the metro will be up and running in 2034….

this.. is our Minister for Transport… 😒

KrisW1001

Yes, but he's only the Minister for Transport, not an absolute monarch*

These delays infuriate me, but on balance I'd rather live in a county where citizens are able to challenge government plans than in one with great infrastructure but fewer civic freedoms.

__

*in fairness, some posters on the Roads forum do think he has a kind of malevolent omnipotence.. for them, there is no setback to any project that isn't somehow directly caused by E. Ryan. Give him a white fluffy cat and a scar, and you get the picture...

gjim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121545392#Comment_121545392

Could you please give this political ranting a rest? If that's not possible, could you and the rest of the "ML will never happen/Ireland is the worst country in the world/Eamon Ryan is useless" crew open a separate thread - so you can enjoy your circle jerk without forcing the rest of us to watch? It adds absolutely nothing to this thread. It's not news, it's not analysis, it contains no interesting information.

Qrt

Has there been any statement made on the preferred seating arrangements of the rolling stock? i.e. longitudinal or transverse?

I think given the limited acceleration and deceleration and sharp turns the former would probably work out better.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121545774#Comment_121545774

I don’t think there has been any official indication, but if it helps, Metrolink seems to be closely modelled off the Copenhagen Metro and in Copenhagen they actually use both directions on the same vehicle, some seats are traverse, while others are flip down longitudinal:

https://www.dreamstime.com/copenhagen-metro-train-interior-copenhagen-denmark-september-interior-view-driverless-rapid-transit-metro-train-image157993969

Brightlights66

My post answering the posters bk and spacetweek seems to have been mislaid by this board.

I think I understand the misunderstanding here re traffic lights.

I fully agree that there are no obstacles to walking along O'Connell Street, on either side. In the relevant section, as has been pointed out above, there is only a crossing at Abbey Street.

And there is no problem crossing O'Connell Street in the relevant section at any given set of lights, as they change regularly. A commuter only needs to cross at one.

It may sound like clutching at straws, but the only positive aspect I can see from this proposed lengthy interchange, is that not every interchanger will be crossing O'Connell Street at the same point. (It should work out at 25% at each crossing, as I said above).

The point of the video was to illustrate the remoteness of the LUAS Red line from the metrolink station, and vice versa. It seems it's about 450 metres, and that's before you even take into account the time to get up from or down to the metro platforms.

The entire length of the 'Ryanair' terminal in Dublin Airport. Twice a day. In this allegedly 'easy' connection.

Mod: My post #4473 suggested that discussion about lights has been done to death. Yet immediately following, you continue the discussion. Leave it or sanctions will follow.

Brightlights66

<Deleted much of this post. Mod>

I felt I had to reply, to clear up the misunderstanding.

Mod: Read the charter. Do not reply to Mod instructions on thread. This is the second time.

If you need to reply, use DM or Report post.

With just 9 posts, you appear to have got off to a bad start.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121546200#Comment_121546200

I kind of took it as read that the metro used in the various videos would be the model used but will there be different rolling stock ordered?

Also a slightly more banal point but, will Metrolink be the final name for the line? Or will it be changed much like Crossrail. Just wondering is the existing Metrolink livery going to be used or is it going to become TFI Rail or something.

KrisW1001

My guess is "Metro" or "Meitreo". I actually prefer the Irish version for the coincidence that it happens to end in "treo", which means "direction of travel" or "way".

tinytobe

Wouldn't it be faster to build a LUAS to the airport and / or also connect the DART to the airport? Possibly cheaper and more options to take, and quicker implemented?

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121547500#Comment_121547500

The Airport is just one stop on the Metro.

There's multiple benefits to the Metro line, only one of which is the airport connection.

Based on Dublin's population size and density and also growth projections, we should really have 2 Metro lines already.

We're way behind.

We should've built one line in the Celtic Tiger years and the 2nd line should be under construction now and we should be planning a circle line to begin construction.

Instead we've people like McDowell even questioning the viability of the first line.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121547500#Comment_121547500

Sure. You wouldn't like the service that you'd get from it though. The capacity for the Luas wouldn't be enough to serve both the airport and all the stations in between, so it'd effectively be a waste of money. On the Dart, the northern line is already at capacity, in order to add an Airport route, you'd be reducing services north of Clongriffin, services which are already at capacity. In order to fix that capacity issue, you're looking at a project that'll cost billions and take years.

Note that these projects won't do anything for Swords, but biggest town in Ireland without a train service.

These proposals have been looked at in depth, and found very wanting in comparison to Metrolink.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121547500#Comment_121547500

This has been discussed a couple times here. The core reasoning behind why neither of those options were pursued and Metrolink was selected are in the Fingal/North Dublin Transport Strategy Report. I have attached said report and the salient points on both of those options.

LR3 is the Luas extension as you mentioned. C1 is the DART spur. LR7 is what Metrolink is. As you can see above, LR7 has a 1.56 CBA ratio, whereas C1 has 0.43.

Fingal_North_Dublin_Transport_Study_Final_June_2015.pdf

prunudo

I really wish NTA, Tii, Rpa or whatever they call themselves these days were far more procative in their pr spin for Metrolink. It would put to bed these 'Luas to the airport' posts that appear every few weeks.

Again, its not helped by the likes of McDowell or McCarthy getting free reign in the media to spout their opinions.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121547528#Comment_121547528

I don't know. I wouldn't extend the existing LUAS line, but completely build another one? Also the frequency of trains on the DART is not that high, it would surprise me if not more trains can't be run.

But then again, I am no expert. And then there is always a reason for finding excuses and saying no.

I just don't see the Metrolink as a tube / underground to be running before 2030. It'll be more likely 2035, and that is if we're all lucky.

That's a long wait, having to rely on number 16 bus or those airport coaches via the port tunnel.

A train connection to the Airport, that should have been done, way sooner, during the Celtic Tiger years, at the latest.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121547587#Comment_121547587

You will be waiting far longer for a luas or DART spur. ML is going through the railway order process, whereas a Luas extension would need to go back to the drawing board. As things stand, we could have shovels in ground before the end of 2024 optimistically. I challenge you to find a project who could begin as quickly as that.

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121547587#Comment_121547587

If you scrapped everything that has been achieved so far by Metrolink in the morning and started again with a Luas to airport plan you'd still be looking at 2035+ before it was completed.

Its just a no, a big fat NO, and the idea needs to be put to bed.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121547595#Comment_121547595

If you're correct, you're correct. It's just that a rail connection to the airport is a much needed piece of infrastructure in Dublin.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121547606#Comment_121547606

It is needed but buses are fine until the Metro. 30 minutes by bus ain't bad.

The Metrolink is hopefully just the start of a full network with Dart+, more Luas lines, Bus connects etc.

By the time the first Metro line is up and running, our population will be over 6 million.

Dublin County will have grown another 200,000 maybe.

Assuming our economy remains stable during this time, the Metro isn't even that expensive and we should start planning the next line immediately.

Copenhagen is a similar city to us and has built 4 lines since 2002. That's the benchmark really.

Sam Russell

McDowell and McCarthy both favour buses or coaches to serve the airport.

Anyone who has used either knows that the bus/coach just getting out of the airport take ten/fifteen or more minutes. The Metrolink will be at the Mater by then. Add in the capacity, and the passengers might still be queueing for a seat on the bus before the Metro has arrived at OCS.

Car is a great alternative to Metrolink as well. Parking is currently at a premium with DAA advising users to book places well ahead.

I wonder if seats will have to be reserved on the Metrolink in the same way - or will it just be a turn up and go service like all metros?

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121547653#Comment_121547653

Not a hope you'll need to book seats.

It'll have a very high capacity.

I think it's interesting to imagine what affect it'll have on Ballymun.

I'm guessing once it starts construction, you'll see an explosion of apartment building there.

Living 15 minutes from town would be so attractive to people. Also so close to the Airport and DCU.

Completely transformative for Ballymun which has barely a cafe or pub for locals. I think the SuperValu just closed.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121547587#Comment_121547587

The cost of a brand new line would mean billions in cost as well, and you'd have all the same problems with the Luas, namely on street running. They looked at where future Luas lines were viable, and I think there was only one or two other routes that were suitable, neither of which went anywhere near the airport.

As others have said, it'd take a lot of time to design, consult on, get legal and planning permission, etc.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121547677#Comment_121547677

Definitely forsee a property bubble in both Swords and Ballymun. Swords will be 35 min from OCS, as opposed to an hour 15 by current public transport. I know where I would want to be buying my house right now... (though realistically, TII should be buying up land near the station and riding that bubble created by the line, much like the Japanese did with their railways)

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121547804#Comment_121547804

I think once it gets through planning next year, you'll see an immediate impact in terms of house prices, developments etc.

No offense to anyone from Ballymun but it's not a desirable place to live but that could change quickly. Likewise Northwood.

If you look at Ballymun and Northwood on Google maps, it's a black hole in terms of pubs, cafes, restaurants, shops, supermarkets. That will all change in a few years.

I think it doesn't have a pub and only recently did a cafe open. It doesn't have a proper supermarket either, only a Lidl.

I don't think it has a sit down restaurant.

But 1000s of young professionals moving to the area would change all that quickly.

jd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121547886#Comment_121547886

Eastern side of Northwood has 2 restaurants, one just outside the entrance of the estate. It also has a hotel, and the locals use it to an extent to meet for a drink/food. It does need a decent pub, though.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121548012#Comment_121548012

Which restaurant do you mean?

It's still a huge black hole. The whole area.

It can change quickly though. Loads of apartments going up in Santry at the moment also.

Whatevers built at the old shopping centre site will be vital as that's where the Metro station will be and is the "town centre" really.

Hopefully it will be a supermarket and retail and pub/cafes/restaurants and then loads of apartments on top.