Deaths of passengers in cases of careless and dangerous driving.

political analyst

https://www.rte.ie/news/munster/2019/0326/1038735-waterford-court/

A 19-year-old man from Waterford has been sentenced to 14 months in prison for careless driving causing the death of a 16-year-old girl and for careless driving causing serious harm of two friends.

This is one of many cases in which people died in crashes caused by careless or dangerous drivers of cars in which the victims were passengers but the offending drivers survived.



What are the reasons for the drivers surviving while at least one of the passengers die? If the car being driven by the offending driver crashes into a wall or into another vehicle, one would assume that both the driver and the front-seat passenger would be more likely to die in the crash than the back-seat passengers (if there are any in the car).

Dial Hard

Not wearing a seatbelt in a lot of cases.

Fr_Dougal

If the driver had died they’d be talking about how great a guy he was, just like how the talked about that scumbag who crashed into and killed that poor man in Drumcondra last week.

Thoie

political analyst wrote: »

If the car being driven by the offending driver crashes into a wall or into another vehicle, one would assume that both the driver and the front-seat passenger would be more likely to die in the crash than the back-seat passengers (if there are any in the car).

Front seat passengers have airbags that back seat passengers rarely have. Back seat passengers (particularly older teens) may be more likely not to be wearing a belt. If you crash into a wall on your own side of the road, it's the passenger side that will hit the wall first.

Benny Biscotti

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

If the driver had died they’d be talking about how great a guy he was, just like how the talked about that scumbag who crashed into and killed that poor man in Drumcondra last week.

What's the story there?

Gonad

I always though this was because the driver instinctively direct himself/herself away from the impact ?

Fr_Dougal

Benny Biscotti wrote: »

What's the story there?

Allegedly the female driver had been at an all night party, speeding on the way home, hit one car, then ran into another car and killed a pensioner who was on his way to a hospital appointment.

Edgware

If passengers have no seat belt it's often injuries from hitting heads or the pillars of the car that cause death

Atlantic Dawn

I think the majority of the car collided on the left side with the wall...


Perfectly good laws in place for this to not have happened but driver couldn't give a flying fook. His boss/Dad should be joining him in jail.

political analyst

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Allegedly the female driver had been at an all night party, speeding on the way home, hit one car, then ran into another car and killed a pensioner who was on his way to a hospital appointment.

I'm just posting a link to that story her for the benefit of others.


https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/greatgrandad-and-young-mum-killed-in-horror-headon-crash-37943119.html

political analyst

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

If the driver had died they’d be talking about how great a guy he was, just like how the talked about that scumbag who crashed into and killed that poor man in Drumcondra last week.

Well, the woman who killed the elderly man in the crash in Drumcondra did pay the ultimate price by also getting herself killed in the process. Her two young sons are also victims because, whatever she did wrong, she was still their mother.

amcalester

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

I think the majority of the car collided on the left side with the wall...


Perfectly good laws in place for this to not have happened but driver couldn't give a flying fook. His boss/Dad should be joining him in jail.

Thought the same. The car was insured under a garage policy, I wonder why?

Far too many of these boy racer díckheads and their invincibility - usually facilitated, as in this case and the one in Cork, by self-centred, couldn't-give-a-fúck parents.

Listening to that poor, poor girl's mother on Drivetime this evening speak about how every morning she tentatively puts her hand on her daughter's bedroom door to open it hoping against hope.... Jesus!

14 months for a life, and these gurriers and their souped-up weapons on our roads continue with their culture of speed, unsafe cars and unsafe driving. Far too many excuses made for these people, when the vast majority of Irish males could get through that stage in life without embracing that boy racer culture.

Atlantic Dawn

amcalester wrote: »

Thought the same. The car was insured under a garage policy, I wonder why?

Yes and I also thought most garage policies were 25 as minimum age and certainly would not cover a provisional driver at any level?

Roger Hassenforder

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Far too many of these boy racer díckheads and their invincibility - usually facilitated, as in this case and the one in Cork, by self-centred, couldn't-give-a-fúck parents
.

"He was on a learner permit and was not accompanied by a qualified driver.

His car was a high-powered, modified, Japanese import owned by the O'Shea garage. It was alleged he was driving at an excessive speed".

I dont know how, but parents should be held responsible in some way.

jimbis

Pretty sure that was my old car. Which I owned for 10 years without putting a scratch on it.

NoBread

jimbis wrote: »

Pretty sure that was my old car. Which I owned for 10 years without putting a scratch on it.

You must be one of the few who owned one and was responsible with it. Lets face it, Levin's attract knuckle draggers.

2Mad2BeMad

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Allegedly the female driver had been at an all night party, speeding on the way home, hit one car, then ran into another car and killed a pensioner who was on his way to a hospital appointment.

What made it worse for the family of the fella was both were buried at the same time in glasnevin cemetery. There was a lot of stares thankfully nothing kicked off.

Feel sorry for her kids couldn't imagine what it would be like growing up without a mother.

jimbis

NoBread wrote: »

You must be one of the few who owned one and was responsible with it. Lets face it, Levin's attract knuckle draggers.

I done my hard driving on track, I never had a point to prove or a need to show off when driving it on the road either.
But, I see knuckle draggers driving all sorts of cars. I suppose levins and similar cars stand out more than a Passat or golf.

V8 Interceptor

"Kate 'Katie' Murphy (16) died when the 1.6-litre Japanese car with a specially lowered suspension and low-profile tyres, being driven by Edward O'Shea, spun out of control and crashed"


Is there any particular reason the author of that article says the car was a 1.6?


https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/newsireland/i-pretty-much-knew-she-was-gone-heartbroken-dad-on-seeing-daughter-katie-16-at-scene-of-fatal-crash/ar-BBVhGUZ?ocid=spartandhp

Paddy@CIRL

V8 Interceptor wrote: »

"Kate 'Katie' Murphy (16) died when the 1.6-litre Japanese car with a specially lowered suspension and low-profile tyres, being driven by Edward O'Shea, spun out of control and crashed"


Is there any particular reason the author of that article says the car was a 1.6?


https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/newsireland/i-pretty-much-knew-she-was-gone-heartbroken-dad-on-seeing-daughter-katie-16-at-scene-of-fatal-crash/ar-BBVhGUZ?ocid=spartandhp

Well, it was a 1.6-litre but it just feels like unnecessary fluff to make the author look like they know what they're talking about. Engine size in this case is irrelevant, the actions & poor decision making of the driver and his parents are what caused the death of that poor girl. The car didn't drive itself into a wall.

rivegauche

political analyst wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/munster/2019/0326/1038735-waterford-court/





This is one of many cases in which people died in crashes caused by careless or dangerous drivers of cars in which the victims were passengers but the offending drivers survived.



What are the reasons for the drivers surviving while at least one of the passengers die? If the car being driven by the offending driver crashes into a wall or into another vehicle, one would assume that both the driver and the front-seat passenger would be more likely to die in the crash than the back-seat passengers (if there are any in the car).

https://www.focus.de/panorama/welt/berlin-kudamm-raser-zwei-prozesse-ein-urteil-moerderische-heimtuecke-mit-604-ps_id_10508035.html
German text

Street Racers jailed for life for causing the death of a 69 year old man while racing on public streets. This is the judgement after appeal.

Different country, different standards.

monkeybutter

rivegauche wrote: »

https://www.focus.de/panorama/welt/berlin-kudamm-raser-zwei-prozesse-ein-urteil-moerderische-heimtuecke-mit-604-ps_id_10508035.html
German text

Street Racers jailed for life for causing the death of a 69 year old man while racing on public streets. This is the judgement after appeal.

Different country, different standards.

different country, totally different story


Now why anyone would let their 16 year old out in a car is beyond me

granturismo

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

"He was on a learner permit and was not accompanied by a qualified driver.

His car was a high-powered, modified, Japanese import owned by the O'Shea garage. It was alleged he was driving at an excessive speed".

I dont know how, but parents should be held responsible in some way.

The car was registered to his family's car sales business.

keyboard_cat

Reading reviews for the garage 6 months ago someone said
“Eddie really saved us yesterday when we had a flat tire in a rental car...”
Surely Eddie was put off the road and would be incapable of helping anyone stranded with a flat tyre?

rivegauche

monkeybutter wrote: »

different country, totally different story


Now why anyone would let their 16 year old out in a car is beyond me

I'm not seeing much of a difference...reckless disregard for the safety of others
https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/father-of-girl-16-killed-in-road-accident-describes-absolutely-sickening-snapchat-videos-made-before-crash-913613.html

NoBread

granturismo wrote: »

The car was registered to his family's car sales business.

So that he could get insured in it no doubt.

mooseknunkle

keyboard_cat wrote: »

Reading reviews for the garage 6 months ago someone said
“Eddie really saved us yesterday when we had a flat tire in a rental car...”
Surely Eddie was put off the road and would be incapable of helping anyone stranded with a flat tyre?

His fathers name is Eddie

Roger Hassenforder

granturismo wrote: »

The car was registered to his family's car sales business.

I'd wager €3.60 his auld man was well aware.

V8 Interceptor

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

His car was a high-powered, modified, Japanese import.

Not sure if I'd call a 1.6 Corolla high powered. But it was obviously too much for him.

Eric Cartman

sure there was yer wan dayna kearney who was an unacompanied L driver killed 3 of her mates when she lost control driving on a flat tyre in a car with no nct.

no justice at all for the families and she didnt even admit she had any fault to bare in the accident.

Roger Hassenforder

V8 Interceptor wrote: »

Not sure if I'd call a 1.6 Corolla high powered. But it was obviously too much for him.

Its plenty if you cant drive!

JustARandomGuy

"...the car finally hit a stone wall side-on while travelling at around 32kmh."

Everyone would've probably been fine if the car was something like a 2010 5 Series. Pedestrians have gotten away with scratches being hit by a cars travelling at speeds like that.

RHJ

Kids who want to go fast on Irish roads should have the decency to ride motorbikes instead that way when they feel like putting themselves forward for a Darwin Award the only person likely to be killed is them.

Tacitus Kilgore

V8 Interceptor wrote: »

Not sure if I'd call a 1.6 Corolla high powered. But it was obviously too much for him.

Except it isn't a 1.6 corolla, it's a sports car that's loosely based on a corolla.

165bhp and 1050kg, that's a quick car in any mans book.

gobo99

JustARandomGuy wrote: »

"...the car finally hit a stone wall side-on while travelling at around 32kmh."

Everyone would've probably been fine if the car was something like a 2010 5 Series. Pedestrians have gotten away with scratches being hit by a cars travelling at speeds like that.

If the car is going 32kph sideways then the driver has lost control and is at fault.

Isambard

a car might stop from 32km/h but your body and in particular your organs don't. Hitting your head on the B pillar (for instance) at 32km would be a bit like being whacked with a baseball bat.

bennya

Eric Cartman wrote: »

sure there was yer wan dayna kearney who was an unacompanied L driver killed 3 of her mates when she lost control driving on a flat tyre in a car with no nct.

no justice at all for the families and she didnt even admit she had any fault to bare in the accident.

Some 'slight' differences between that girl's case and this:

- She was stung by a fake NCT cert, even the gardai believed it looked to be valid
- She was not driving at excess speed
- Apart from the tyres, the car was otherwise in sound mechanical condition
- The flat tyre that caused the loss of control happened during the final journey

Link to report

Not even remotely fair to draw parallels between these two cases, I feel.

Eric Cartman

bennya wrote: »

Some 'slight' differences between that girl's case and this:

- She was stung by a fake NCT cert, even the gardai believed it looked to be valid
- She was not driving at excess speed
- Apart from the tyres, the car was otherwise in sound mechanical condition
- The flat tyre that caused the loss of control happened during the final journey

Link to report

Not even remotely fair to draw parallels between these two cases, I feel.

Yet again , the tyre was flat before she hit the cats eye in the road which contributed to the car losing control, the largest factor was her inexperience in not recognising how a car behaves with a flat tyre and not being accompanied by an experienced driver who would.

The tyre did not suddenly deflate immediately before the accident. Obviously not completely the same, but in other similar incidents, many take the blame for the accidents they have caused, the amount of investigation, reports comissioned and other resources thrown at this case in order to absolve dayna of blame, plus her innocent plea and no statement accepting any responsibility are the damning parts here.

If it was a young lad from a poor family in dublin the media would have condemned the crap out of him, half of that investigative work wouldnt have been done and in all honesty the chances of him accepting responsibility for his own actions would have been a lot higher.

Instead we have a girl who killed 3 of her mates due in part to a vehicle malfunction and in a larger part due to her driving illegally without a qualified driver and not posessing the experience to deal with the vehicle issue , who walked out of court smiling after she denied any responsibility and used every trick to absolve herself of any blame from this.

bennya

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Yet again , the tyre was flat before she hit the cats eye in the road which contributed to the car losing control, the largest factor was her inexperience in not recognising how a car behaves with a flat tyre and not being accompanied by an experienced driver who would.

Let me quote some of that article:

“Even someone who had done an advanced driving course would have been unlikely to correct” the car once control was lost, he said.

Also, it's entirely possible that a driver can pass their test and gain many years of driving experience without ever having driven on a flat tyre.

ohnonotgmail

bennya wrote: »

Let me quote some of that article:

correct if i'm wrong but "once control was lost," was the point that she hit the cats eyes. The tyre was flat was before this. If she has stopped when the tyre was flat the crash would never have happened. The problem is that she did not know that her tyre was flat because of her inexperience. A qualified driver in the car with her would have noticed. It was her driving without a qualified driver in the car that led to the crash.

gctest50

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Yet again , the tyre was flat before she hit the cats eye in the road which contributed to the car losing control, the largest factor was her inexperience in not recognising how a car behaves with a flat tyre and not being accompanied by an experienced driver who would.

The tyre did not suddenly deflate immediately before the accident. Obviously not completely the same, but in other similar incidents, many take the blame for the accidents they have caused, the amount of investigation, reports comissioned and other resources thrown at this case in order to absolve dayna of blame, plus her innocent plea and no statement accepting any responsibility are the damning parts here.

If it was a young lad from a poor family in dublin the media would have condemned the crap out of him, half of that investigative work wouldnt have been done and in all honesty the chances of him accepting responsibility for his own actions would have been a lot higher.

Instead we have a girl who killed 3 of her mates due in part to a vehicle malfunction and in a larger part due to her driving illegally without a qualified driver and not posessing the experience to deal with the vehicle issue , who walked out of court smiling after she denied any responsibility and used every trick to absolve herself of any blame from this.

Which part of found not guilty do you not understand ?

Just looking for points in the men vs. women singledadsЯus justice argument ?

Eric Cartman

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

correct if i'm wrong but "once control was lost," was the point that she hit the cats eyes. The tyre was flat was before this. If she has stopped when the tyre was flat the crash would never have happened. The problem is that she did not know that her tyre was flat because of her inexperience. A qualified driver in the car with her would have noticed. It was her driving without a qualified driver in the car that led to the crash.

It also i dicated that the tyre had been damaged for an extended period of time, a qualified driver and some would even say a learner driver should have realised how to do a very basic safety check and see that the tyre was visibly damaged before the journey even started.

Eric Cartman

gctest50 wrote: »

Which part of found not guilty do you not understand ?

Just looking for points in the men vs. women singledadsЯus justice argument ?

Where is any of this present in the argument ? Ive mentioned nothing in any way to do with this

ohnonotgmail

Eric Cartman wrote: »

It also i dicated that the tyre had been damaged for an extended period of time, a qualified driver and some would even say a learner driver should have realised how to do a very basic safety check and see that the tyre was visibly damaged before the journey even started.

I still cant understand why the jury were not given the option of returning a verdict of careless driving if they could not find her guilty of dangerous driving.

gctest50

JustARandomGuy wrote: »

"...the car finally hit a stone wall side-on while travelling at around 32kmh."

Everyone would've probably been fine if the car was something like a 2010 5 Series. Pedestrians have gotten away with scratches being hit by a cars travelling at speeds like that.

These ncap side-on pole tests are done at 32km/h, the airbags help

bennya

My overall point was against the attempt to equate these two cases with a similar amount of personal responsibility, despite the clear differences.

punisher5112

My wife was driving every day for months on a near flat tyre. 9psi is the spot it would go to.... It was on a Yaris and the rear so the car didn't weigh it down so looked ok but when o drove it it handled like a boat.

Then another car the front tyre actually tore and she drove for 10km without noticing apart from she thought it was harder to steer(no air at all)

JC01

bennya wrote: »

My overall point was against the attempt to equate these two cases with a similar amount of personal responsibility, despite the clear differences.

To be fair, plenty of posters have used some horrible language and are practically gleeful that this lad is going to prison because lost control of a car. It does seem a bit odd that the same people who demand he be held accountable don’t seem nearly as concerned with driver accountability in the other case.

Also the level of reporting in the articles in this case is atrocious and extremely inaccurate, bordering on outright false and it does appear to push a very accusatory tone against the young man, one not present in the reporting on the crash involving the young women.

bennya

I agree there totally, the use of emotive language in that lad's case paints things in a worse light than it already is. However there was a clear case of acting the b0llox in his that was absent in hers that does differentiate the two.

In both cases, people died and nobody should be taking any kind of delight from the judicial outcome - it won't turn back the clock.

tretorn

I think there is an element of personal responsibility too especially when all the young people are the same age. He was only seventeen and presumably everyone who got into the car went willingly with him.

Its time now to bring in a system where young drivers cannot have passengers in the car with them when driver and passengers are under twenty three. Most of these accidents happen when the cars have two, three and four passengers so there is an element of showing off by some drivers. These accidents are happening whether the driver is a learner, a novice or a driver with a full licence but the whole focus now seems to be on learner drivers who drive unaccompanied.