Why does it take so long....

dc99

I think I finally figured it out - why it seems to (usually) take so long to get a license for a Firearm in Ireland.

It’s beacuse of technology.....or rather the lack of technology in the firearms license process.

We are so used to pressing a button - instant application...or instant payment...or instant reaction. Email instead of snail mail. Text instead of call. Social media - instant comes. Like this morning we woke up to live pictures of the atrocity in NZ.

Pulse was never intended to process applications (record the info and store it as a database entry...but never to process applications.

So as I understand it. The process is like this....

Decision to buy a gun is made- want/need/like/fancy a new Gun go to PAPER application.
Firearm selected (Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun/50cal...well maybe not the 50cal.
Drop application into Garda Station or post (how many of us post one in??? Zero I bet)
Ask for receipt for application.
Obtain receipt - or be refused a receipt (as happened to me on at least two occasions - both to do with no receipt book being available......or like last time - we don’t give receipts...but I digress).
It’s (paper application remember) placed somewhere in the Station.......and waits and waits.... finally forwarded to the FA officer.....
Entered into Pulse (I’m guesing on this due to verbal feed back from speaking to ASG) THIS IS THE START DATE FOR APPLICATION - from anicdotal info :-)
May or may not be assigned to a Garda to inspect Security arrangements....
While it is entered on PULSE it is not assigned for further enquiry’s to a specific Member or AGS it is assigned by Paper? (Hey you - you don’t look busy (I’m being facetious here lol)
Pottering about - “making enquiries”- blaming the Super/someone else for additional questions blockages, etc.
Anywhere from 2 weeks to more than 3 months for a decision.
License refused - appeal
Licence Granted - wait for the grant letter VIA SNAILMAIL. (Mine never arrive - had to ring and get a resend - add 4 WEEKS!!)
Pay for licence in the Post office (NOT ONLINE)
Wait for yellow card (license) to arrive - what 5 working days?
Done - collect firearm....no wait if its a Pistol your RFD can’t import it (if its New) without the yellow card.
So RFD applies via email, for import license.
Up to 3 weeks later import certificate issued. Sent to exporting country.
Up to 4 weeks later export cert issued.
1-2 weeks shipping.
Finally rounds on target.
My last took 120 to Yellow card...now awaiting import license and then a source country export license, then shipping.....

In this day and age ......
Just Saying....

kay 9

I'm the same boat myself atm.
Was out of the shooting game for a couple of years due to family member being terminally ill and after applying for new firearm again.

Have everything else purchased and ready to go which cost a substantial amount of money.
No guarantee I'll get grant letter but I'd hate to get it and have a new firearm without the necessary gear to use it, gun safe, scope, rings, bipod, lights etc etc

Benny mcc

Every application I ever made took for ever but the last one took 5 days.second last one was lost!!! Go figure

Benny mcc

At time of my second last application getting lost two of my friends and my brothers were lost aswell wtf

PSXDupe

Doesn't really have anything to do with technology, look up north, they have an online application process, RFD can do it all in store but still there are guys I know waiting 12+ months for a licence, even to be amended.

There is a lot to take into consideration

1. Firearms Officer is not an official position and is part of the job for the Garda, part of, so depending on their workload, firearms applications may be second priority.
2. The details you provide also play a big part on the speed of applications, you provide all the info, they wont ask questions

I give you an example. I applied for my licence 32 days ago, and I'll be picking up my new pistol next week. That is down to a number of things.

1. The Firearms Officer in the area in brilliant, extremely helpful (always), will ring me when she gets the applications, most times will tell me exactly when she will be speaking with the Super regarding the application.
2. I always provide every possible detail needed, I have a 2 page cover letter which details everything related to mediacal and security. I have a another page with details how all my firearms are broken down across a number of safes. And what I use each firearm for.

You have to understand they need to have confidence in the decision they are making and if you show that you are a responsible gun owner who takes into account every aspect of gun safety and ownership, then it makes their decision a lot easier.

Another example, before I applied for this licence I rang the local crime prevention office, again a very nice Garda, got him to review my security. That way when I submitted my application I could state that I had requested the CPO to review my security and he found everything to be to a high standard. Again, showing a reponsible gun owner.

That is why I got my application processed quickly, not because or technology or lack of it.

freddieot

PSXDupe wrote: »

Doesn't really have anything to do with technology, look up north, they have an online application process, RFD can do it all in store but still there are guys I know waiting 12+ months for a licence, even to be amended.

There is a lot to take into consideration

1. Firearms Officer is not an official position and is part of the job for the Garda, part of, so depending on their workload, firearms applications may be second priority.
2. The details you provide also play a big part on the speed of applications, you provide all the info, they wont ask questions

I give you an example. I applied for my licence 32 days ago, and I'll be picking up my new pistol next week. That is down to a number of things.

1. The Firearms Officer in the area in brilliant, extremely helpful (always), will ring me when she gets the applications, most times will tell me exactly when she will be speaking with the Super regarding the application.
2. I always provide every possible detail needed, I have a 2 page cover letter which details everything related to mediacal and security. I have a another page with details how all my firearms are broken down across a number of safes. And what I use each firearm for.

You have to understand they need to have confidence in the decision they are making and if you show that you are a responsible gun owner who takes into account every aspect of gun safety and ownership, then it makes their decision a lot easier.

Another example, before I applied for this licence I rang the local crime prevention office, again a very nice Garda, got him to review my security. That way when I submitted my application I could state that I had requested the CPO to review my security and he found everything to be to a high standard. Again, showing a reponsible gun owner.

That is why I got my application processed quickly, not because or technology or lack of it.

I agree with every word you say. the only caveat is that this is totally dependant on where you reside \ your station. Like myself, I know lots of guys with no negative history, no bizarre requirements who have submitted anywhere from a few page of relevant information to actual professionally bound submissions to support their applications. It also does not seem to matter whether you have been shooting for 20 years or a new entrant to the game.

Personally I find my local FO to be a very decent guy who would not deliberately delay or mess about with an application. However, he is part of a unit that does other varied police wok and has limited time to work on applications (not his fault - the State's fault).

Then some areas have regular movement of Supers. This is a problem as their opinion vary, requirements and peculiarities vary - little chance to build a long term understanding or relationship.

Add this to a ridiculously out of date manual and computer system, the potential to come up against a new Super or other officer who thinks a red dot is a night vision scope or a spare barrel of same calibre constitutes another rifle and it is a pick and mix. In the past, I received a 9mm cert in about 5 days after applying and have also waited 5 months for a .22 10/22 rifle. Substituting a .40 handgun took 10 days while substituting a rifle took 2 months.

Go figure.

Don't move house

Cass

Over the years i have found the following to add to the delays in processing applications:

1. "Firearms Officer" out sick, on holidays, etc. IOW absent.
2. Utter lack of knowledge on behalf of the "FO" regarding firearms, and in too many cases the actual process.
3. "FO" acting like Supers/over zealous and demanding unneeded and baseless (in law) details or permission forms.
4. Superintendent slow in signing off on them. Some stations the Super will dedicate two days per month to doing this.
5. Paperwork sitting for days to weeks before even being processed (as a result of points 1, 2 and 3)
6. Local stations having no "FO"
7. Local stations having to send applications to the district station which meaning all the above with the added delay of sitting in the local station for varying amount of time (in one case with me, two months

Now other problems which i'm not privvy to but have been told about, read about, surmised, and guessed at are:

1. PULSE being completely unsuitable for task. Even the Garda inspectorate said it's grossly outdated and not fit for task.
2. Applications only being processed, as said above by dc99, when AGS start with the 3 month clock starting from that moment and not the date of submission. This means the AGS can stand by their assertion they do the majority of applications on time.
3. Lack of Superintendents per district. I've gone through 4 in the last ten years.
4. Lack of "FOs" in a district. I've gone through 7 in the last 12 years.
5. No one from AGS wanting the position. It was told to me by one member of AGS that it's a poison chalice.
6. The other duties involving the AGS member responsible for firearms meaning that of all the time per week they spend on duty perhaps only a fraction is dedicated to processing firearm application.

What are the resolutions to this?

Who can say for definite. I know some things i'd like to see happening but whether they will, can be or are even possible is above my understandings as i'm not AGS or DoJ.

Some of things i'd like to see include:

• Centralised processing centre with dedicated civilian members of staff for admin and AGS members for the background checks, security, etc.
• Online renewals and substitutions. First time applicants may go the paper route, but for those already with firearms and applying for a new firearm may be able to use the online process too.
• Receipts issued at the station (if no online process is coming) when the applications is submitted. This record will shine a light on the actual processing time and not the one AGS claim.
• Firearm training for "FOs" and Superintendents. If a person going for a firearm must have a basic understanding of them to show competence then those issuing or processing the licenses must be competent too. This should include training to eliminate the rampant firearm bias prevalent within AGS that causes so much hostility.
• Update of PULSE or the removal of firearms from it to a dedicated, and separate, system. Not accessible by every AGS member as is currently possible, but only by those involved in firearms.

cookimonster

I would agree with the last two posts, the system itself is not a bad one (bracing for a back lash) it is in fact the human element in it that effects the process.
If you remove any 'anti gun sentiment' of any form and the possiblity of the applicant being unsuitable from the equation then it's down to individuals processing the paper work.

I started off my gun ownership over 34 years, back when it was a the green yearly licence ( I remember white aswell). For the marjority of this time (28+ years) myself and my father had no issues what so ever with paper work.
The reason been, that it was the same Guard processing the paper work. When he retired it went to sh1t for the duration of the new 'FO' ..... a utterly useless lazy man, who couldn't be arsed to do his job. At the time of my interaction with him I gave him the benefit of the doubt as the GS were in upheaval with shift changes etc etc... but since his departure I revoke any of that...
The new person dealing with the process is professional and competent, (I have delt with him face to face with a European Firearms Licence) and punctual. So much so catching me off the hop with two new licences processed with in weeks of handing in the paper work.
My local station is the district HQ, this IMO has nought to do with the speed of the processing, but highlights my recent positive experiences as lads I know who must process through their local station in order to have it signed off at the district HQ are not so lucky with their FO, running into the same problems (not turning up after wanting to meet you, losing paper work, being un-contactable, not knowing the process, running over time processing simple paper work) I did prior to the arrival of the new guy.

dodderangler

Applied for a new .22 near a month ago. Still waiting. Got my .223 licence in 3 weeks. Don’t know why it’s taking longer for the .22

BattleCorp

The human element is the problem here.

Stuff can be sitting in trays for months on end without being entered onto the system.

dc99

PSXDupe wrote: »

There is a lot to take into consideration

I was going to post a big long redress to your post :-)

But decided that the only real reply boils down to the following:

You got lucky!

Grizzly 45

Add onto this the peculiar happening, but now less so,of license applications becoming "lost" in the Garda paperwork system.

I say peculiar, as it only seems to be firearms license applications that get "lost",in an organisation that deals with countless forms, documents, warrants, etc on a daily if not hourly basis. You don't hear of peoples arrest warrants,or speeding ticket fines, or passport or bail applications, getting lost in the station paperwork.

One would think that an organisation that has a propensity for losing a certain kind of paperwork, would put a procedure in place to make sure this doesn't happen all the time, and not to mind,it does fall foul of data protection legislation as well. Leaving AGS well open to a lawsuit.
Annoying then that you would have to start the whole process off again.

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Leaving AGS well open to a lawsuit.

Not to mention fines as outlined in the "new" GDPR regulations.

Makes me wonder how many instances of "lost" paperwork has been recorded/cited since the inception of GDPR.

Grizzly 45

Going to type replies to points.
[QUOTE= Cass

• Centralised processing centre with dedicated civilian members of staff for admin and AGS members for the background checks, security, etc.

[/quote]
The problem is simply an over paranoia of who accesses the sacred PULSE system.If you use non-Garda personnel, they consider this too great a security risk that the system could be compromised by "criminals and terrorists,[and creatures from Mars no doubt:rolleyes:] Hence, only Gardai can use this system and they log on with their Garda number, so the system is not fit for purpose in the fact it cant security clear civilian workers to do mundane paperwork tasks.

• Online renewals and substitutions. First-time applicants may go the paper route, but for those already with firearms and applying for a new firearm may be able to use the online process too.

Very doable,if you can guarantee a system that is very hard to compromise by hacking and is encrypted.But like a lot of electronic projects here in Ireland[Think voting machine, and jail phone jamming fiascos,or rural broadband.I wouldn't say it would be too feasible to be delivered on time,or within a budget

• Receipts issued at the station (if no online process is coming) when the applications is submitted. This record will shine a light on the actual processing time and not the one AGS claim

.

VERY Doable and very easily done.

• Firearm training for "FOs" and Superintendents. If a person going for a firearm must have a basic understanding of them to show competence then those issuing or processing the licenses must be competent too. This should include training to eliminate the rampant firearm bias prevalent within AGS that causes so much hostility

Should be mandatory, but the problem is deeper than just training.It is an inbuilt hatred/paranoia of civilians owning firearms in the state where the police force is routinely unarmed,[and frankly consider themselves outgunned if they consider IPSC a threat to them]. Witness IRL, UK and now sadly, NZ This is enforced by an EU Govt policy of "as few "weapons" as possible in the EU citizenry's hands" So you are going to be fighting to have to change hearts and minds on this.I reckon it would be treated the way sex ed was treated in school when I was going.A box ticking exercise for the school, and nothing more informative than a biology lesson on reproduction.

• Update of PULSE or the removal of firearms from it to a dedicated, and separate, system. Not accessible by every AGS member as is currently possible, but only by those involved in firearms.

Would be the way to go,but justify it to the Govt bean counters, and then find techno heads that can deliver a workable, adaptable, encrypted system within their budget and more or less a time frame.

Cass

I've edited your post above to clarify the quotes as you had me down for your comments and other small errors. In case you wonder why it's marked as edited, but i did not change the wording.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

The problem is simply an over paranoia of who accesses the sacred PULSE system.If you use non-Garda personnel, they consider this too great a security risk that the system could be compromised by "criminals and terrorists,[and creatures from Mars no doubt:rolleyes:] Hence, only Gardai can use this system and they log on with their Garda number, so the system is not fit for purpose in the fact it cant security clear civilian workers to do mundane paperwork tasks.

Well considering everyone from Gardaí, to the Garda Inspectorate/Commission, to the previous Minister has slammed AGS for using PULSE like a social media platform, snooping, etc. the question of civilians using it seems like a fuss about nothing.

However i'm not advocating for civilians to use PULSE, but as listed above, a new system with access to only this system of firearms. If a new system is not used then as i said have AGS there (they have to be involved legally) to do that part as well as other AGS involved duties. Then civilians for the processing/paperwork and other admin aspects.

To be blunt who has access to PULSE or similar system is a tiny fault in an otherwise perfectly legitimate and workable proposal.

Very doable,if you can guarantee a system that is very hard to compromise by hacking and is encrypted.But like a lot of electronic projects here in Ireland[Think voting machine, and jail phone jamming fiascos,or rural broadband.I wouldn't say it would be too feasible to be delivered on time,or within a budget

Again the threat of "what ifs" should not be a cause to not try or do it.

Every system is susceptible to attack, and if a new system is not used and they continue to use the (albeit upgraded) PULSE system then it's as much at risk as any other system.

Again something that should be considered, but a poor excuse not to try/do it.

VERY Doable and very easily done.

And a requirement, but not done. Well at least not correctly.

How many times have the receipt letters come:

1. A day before the grant
2. Same day as a grant
3. After the grant
4. Not at all

I have asked for receipts for every application, sub, renewal i submit and never once received one with excuses ranging from no receipt book, can't do it, or being told outright i'm not getting one.

Should be mandatory, but the problem is deeper than just training.It is an inbuilt hatred/paranoia of civilians owning firearms in the state where the police force is routinely unarmed..........

Agreed, hence my comment about training to include this attitude. It won't be stamped out overnight, or at all in some cases, but as long as applications are dealt with professionally without the added "i wouldn't allow any person to own a catapult if i had my way" remarks that have been said to me even very recently.

So you are going to be fighting to have to change hearts and minds on this.I reckon it would be treated the way sex ed was treated in school when I was going

That took a long time, but it has changed. So this can too.

Would be the way to go,but justify it to the Govt bean counters, and then find techno heads that can deliver a workable, adaptable, encrypted system within their budget and more or less a time frame.

As i said if no new system is coming, and everyone and their Mother is calling for PULSE to be updated/scrapped and replaced, then use the new PULSE system.

It cannot cost that much if done right (won't hold my breath), but it needs doing.

As i said we were meant to have so much more when the last act was brought in (2009) such as picture licenses but it was rushed, half arsed and pushed through and then the attitude was it's there, it's working, leave it.

dc99

On the subject of Civilians having access to PULSE-

Its my understanding that they do have access (Civilians as in Dept Justice Clerical staff based in AGS stations/offices).

I say this cause when I have phoned the Supt. Office I usually get a civilian staff member - and they are able to look up to see if my application was approved (or not as would be a different case)

How much access I don't know....But most systems can have individual restrictions placed on them.
Its also my understanding that is the civilian clerical staff that enter the applications info into PULSE not the FO.

PSXDupe

dc99 wrote: »

I was going to post a big long redress to your post :-)

But decided that the only real reply boils down to the following:

You got lucky!

Luck is a small part of it, and when I say luck, I mean I am lucky the FO is billiant at what she does. But that is the extent of it.


The longest I have ever had to wait for a licence in 6 weeks and that was for a restricted licence, and that was only becuase they had changed Chief Super and he was a bit behind in appointments (playing catchup)

I have always made a point of making myself known to the Firearms Office, Super and Chief Super before putting the application in.


I also know people in the area which are waiting long periods of time for their licences, now to me that has to be to do with how they present themselves, the details the submit. Security also has a huge part to play in it, I know this for speaking with them.

I have all my firearms broken down and split across multiple safe, each safe is alarmed 24x7 and the house is alarm and monitor. Security lighting is also connected to the alarm so my whole property lights up if the alarm is triggered. The FO, Super and Chief Super know that if my property is attacked, they would need to find all safes to be able to assemble a firearm, that give them great confidence that my firearms are secure and that is why (i think) my applications are process quickly and efficiently everytime, not luck.

freddieot

I also know people in the area which are waiting long periods of time for their licences, now to me that has to be to do with how they present themselves, the details the submit. Security also has a huge part to play in it, I know this for speaking with them.

I have all my firearms broken down and split across multiple safe, each safe is alarmed 24x7 and the house is alarm and monitor. Security lighting is also connected to the alarm so my whole property lights up if the alarm is triggered. The FO, Super and Chief Super know that if my property is attacked, they would need to find all safes to be able to assemble a firearm, that give them great confidence that my firearms are secure and that is why (i think) my applications are process quickly and efficiently everytime, not luck.

Again, as per my last post, not arguing with what you say in principle. However, your lucky situation (yes- lucky) is not shared by everyone.

In my case for example, my security precautions exceed yours and I'm not going to compromise them by giving any details on an on-line forum. I've also requested and received visits on three occasions from the FO \ CPO and my security is one of the best he has ever seen. I've also been a licensed shooter for over 25 years with no security or character related issues. Yet as I've said my own experience on applications has been good and bad.

As someone who has represented this country at UN and various other forums and worked in State \ Semi-State roles for nearly 40 years, I also know how to properly present and support a firearms application. I know of numerous other individuals with similar backgrounds (including members of AGS itself), that have faced similar difficulties, regardless of the relationships \ security or efforts involved.

You are lucky - move house \ district or get a new Super or CS and your good run with applications could turn into an overnight nightmare. That is the product of the inconsistency in our application\ licensing system and /I've seen it happen several times.

Enjoy your current good relationship and the cooperation you obviously have received to date. I've no doubt you are a decent guy who deserves it and I genuinely hope that it lasts. However, don't be fooled that most others are doing something wrong or just too stupid to realise they need to win hearts and minds as well as presenting properly. In most cases (with the usual few exceptions) that is definitely not the case.

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote:

To be blunt who has access to PULSE or similar system is a tiny fault in an otherwise perfectly legitimate and workable proposal.

Absolutely,every other Govt in the world seemingly can add civillians to do certain tasks in its police and milataries...Why is Ireland so different??

Again the threat of "what ifs" should not be a cause to not try or do it.

Not so much that,as more "From the previous bitter learned experience of such projects..."

Agreed, hence my comment about training to include this attitude. It won't be stamped out overnight, or at all in some cases, but as long as applications are dealt with professionally without the added "i wouldn't allow any person to own a catapult if i had my way" remarks that have been said to me even very recently.

I had the same experience once in Germany, dealing with our licensing dept in our county council offices over there. The bureaucrat who made Herr Flick of "Allo, Allo" look like a raving paragon of friendliness, expressed some similar sentiments about hunting and gun ownership to me. However, he qualified it immediately with saying that is his own personal opinion and not in anyway his policy or the depts' policy,as otherwise it would be considered an abuse of office and he could be sacked for letting his personal biases influence his work and decisions. Compare that to attitudes here, where anybody in any govt authority gets a tiny bit of authority or a uniform they consider themselves the next Stalin.So its going to take a looonnnggg time for that mindset to change.

As i said we were meant to have so much more when the last act was brought in (2009) such as picture licenses but it was rushed, half arsed and pushed through and then the attitude was it's there, it's working, leave it.

It was also dumped, because of a bad design fault, if you add your pic to your yellow card, with the AGS crest in the background. It could pass as a warrant card to the unknowing. Since few people of the law-abiding sector will ever see one....
For Ref, the few I've seen are usually are Green in colour,about 1.5 times the size of a FAC and enclosed in a very tatty cheap leather wallet from being "customised" in Garda back pockets:)

Grizzly 45

dc99 wrote: »

On the subject of Civilians having access to PULSE-

Its my understanding that they do have access (Civilians as in Dept Justice Clerical staff based in AGS stations/offices).

I say this cause when I have phoned the Supt. Office I usually get a civilian staff member - and they are able to look up to see if my application was approved (or not as would be a different case)

If you are talking to the Supers or Chiefs office, you are talking to a"staff" Sargent pulling clerical/secretarial detail for either and both rank. All the ones I've dealt with, and I'm on first name terms with them at this stage:) are wearing 3 stripes. It's unfortunate, that no one answers here in Ireland with their name or rank, in whatever capacity they are in,and not necessarily the Guards are at fault on this.Big companies,Govt depts,phone companies are a little better at this here than most. But in general the Irish phone manner in Govt depts is horrible. A grumpy "Front desk Yeah?" Followed by in one Govt dept I had to deal with[motor tax] a nice long Yawn down the phone really does sound inviting courteous and professional of any organisation.

cookimonster

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

...If you are talking to the Supers or Chiefs office, you are talking to a"staff" Sargent pulling clerical/secretarial detail for either and both rank. All the ones I've dealt with, and I'm on first name terms with them at this stage:) are wearing 3 stripes....

This is very common, usually Gurads about to go on maternity leave or some such arrangement. I was dealing with the Supers 'Secretary' when I had run into difficulties with my previous FO, I was told to ask for her by first name, only ring on particular days as she worked a short week.
I was quite surprised to find out that she was indeed a Garda Sergeant as I had her pegged as a civilian employee, possibily on job sharing.

slavetothegrind

Can't wait for the tender for PULSE replacement, i am going in hard with ****e tech but good bull****ability and a RELATIVELY cheap price. Some choice civil servants will enjoy a nice holiday and the nation will be stuck with an ancient barely functioning software more suited to polling station work.

slavetothegrind

I am on a rant....why can't your mygovid contain your driving licence, your firearm licence and any other details all in one place?

How many pieces of plastic do i have to have?

Grizzly 45

Data protection accesibility and security issues most likely. This is the start argument of the universal citizen's ID, accessible to all govt bodies and corporations, and accountable to no one, card. I'd rather not have my dentist know how many rounds of ammo I have, or the tax collector know about my ingrown toenail removal...Thanks all the same.:)

cookimonster

Paid for two licences in the post office Monday afternoon, both licences arrived in the morning post the Friday of the same week, ....Dublin area, happy days.

dc99

cookimonster wrote: »

Paid for two licences in the post office Monday afternoon, both licences arrived in the morning post the Friday of the same week, ....Dublin area, happy days.

LOL - congrats.


Mine took about 5 working days to come as well after paying the €80. It wss the time before that that killed me....and I'm still waiting for the import document to be completed and then shipping (all done by my RFD).


Just have to put it out of my mind till it comes.