Mayo GAA Discussion - Part 4

km79

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Jayus, you are not really selling Horan's sideline strength's much!
I was thinking surely he learnt a trick or two from his time at SKY - transitions, offloads and all that jazz?

He didn’t
It is what it is with him
He drives me daft at times but I’m on board for this years ride !

TommyDe

gormdubhgorm wrote:

I was wondering if Mayo people can think up likely 'left field' plans Horan might come up with?

Nice try Dessie.

seligehgit

km79 wrote: »

He didn’t
It is what it is with him
He drives me daft at times but I’m on board for this years ride !

Ah km79 you should patent that Horanball term.:D

It will go down in folklore.

I chuckle every time I hear or speak it.

TBH I don't know whither to laugh or cry.

As posters have so eloquently stated James Horan knows only way,to play on the front foot.

It's admirable but a disaster potentially waiting to happen.

Next Saturday will be the truest indicator in terms of how much he has developed his game management acumen.

TBF to him his sideline management could be impeccable but it will likely still not suffice if Dublin play to their potential.

muddle84 wrote: »

There is nobody in the country close to Fenton in terms of what he does for Dublin and how good he is. That's not the point, he doesn't have to be a third of the footballer. He is everybit the athlete that Fenton is. Sure Fenton might catch it over his head but is he going to be as effective when Coen is tackling him and following him the full length of the field.

Coen's best games are when he is given a specific role like this. He tends to get a bit lost when running up the field. When he gets into the other half he usually looks to off load. I think this is why he is underrated so much.

Bandmember's point is well made nonetheless.

Does Stephen Coen possess of the mobility to stick with Fenton?

Doubtful.

Then again Jack Barry has a history of doing a relatively good job on him and I don't recall him possessing of any great pace.

PressRun

Well, if nothing else, Horan's brand of football is exciting to watch and I get the sense that the players do enjoy playing that way. I still believe it's a disaster waiting to happen and we are in very dodgy territory. But like km is saying, we might as well enjoy the ride nonetheless!

wirelessdude01

PressRun wrote: »

Well, if nothing else, Horan's brand of football is exciting to watch and I get the sense that the players do enjoy playing that way. I still believe it's a disaster waiting to happen and we are in very dodgy territory. But like km is saying, we might as well enjoy the ride nonetheless!

We started back training tonight with our underage team. One of the other managers said he expects Dublin to open an almighty can of whoopass on us. Was adamant it will happen due to Horans lack of ability to react "in game". This man and his family are big Mayo supporters but said Rochie always tailored games to the opposition which is very true.

Blackjack

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

We started back training tonight with our underage team. One of the other managers said he expects Dublin to open an almighty can of whoopass on us. Was adamant it will happen due to Horans lack of ability to react "in game". This man and his family are big Mayo supporters but said Rochie always tailored games to the opposition which is very true.

Yeah I’d be of the view that if you could choose a manager for games then up to now Horan would be the man, but for the one coming next weekend Rockford would be first choice.

“Sure lookit” we are where we are now. No one gives us a prayer anyway so unless we win whatever decisions are made will be irrelevant.

PressRun

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

We started back training tonight with our underage team. One of the other managers said he expects Dublin to open an almighty can of whoopass on us. Was adamant it will happen due to Horans lack of ability to react "in game". This man and his family are big Mayo supporters but said Rochie always tailored games to the opposition which is very true.

I suspect it will be a bit of a pasting too tbh, but sure I'd rather be in the final than not. Though I suspect this is all happening a year or two earlier than Horan was expecting, but we are where we are now.

The differences between Horan and Rochford are fairly stark. Horan just has a football philosophy that he subscribes to and doesn't seem to believe in tailoring games to suit opposition. Rochford was more tactically minded for sure. I always think back on the Tyrone game in 2016. Was a cagey game that probably wasn't particularly entertaining for the neutral and we did nearly blow it (of course), but Rochford got so much right that day. I'm sure Tony McEntee had a big input on that game too. It was a great overall management performance.

gormdubhgorm

PressRun wrote: »

I suspect it will be a bit of a pasting too tbh, but sure I'd rather be in the final than not. Though I suspect this is all happening a year or two earlier than Horan was expecting, but we are where we are now.

The differences between Horan and Rochford are fairly stark. Horan just has a football philosophy that he subscribes to and doesn't seem to believe in tailoring games to suit opposition. Rochford was more tactically minded for sure. I always think back on the Tyrone game in 2016. Was a cagey game that probably wasn't particularly entertaining for the neutral and we did nearly blow it (of course), but Rochford got so much right that day. I'm sure Tony McEntee had a big input on that game too. It was a great overall management performance.

I am curious now. Which manager do you think could get more out of the players available? Either from Mayo currently or fellas that would have expressed interest in the past? Because I think the Mayo job would be a dream job for any intercounty manager.
Low expectation, but seems to be talent coming through. Mixed with the old heads.
I think Horan has the hard part done for any future manager, and blooded the younger lads.

030802

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I am curious now. Which manager do you think could get more out of the players available? Either from Mayo currently or fellas that would have expressed interest in the past? Because I think the Mayo job would be a dream job for any intercounty manager.
Low expectation, but seems to be talent coming through. Mixed with the old heads.
I think Horan has the hard part done for any future manager, and blooded the younger lads.

That's the dichotomy of Horan - he's created the attack attack attack mindset that has made Mayo so successful and great to watch, but not quite enough for the big prize. We, the fans, all feel we could tweak it a bit here and there and it would get us over the line. JH believes in all or nothing. TBH, it's because of his philosophy that we all love this team. No tweaks, front foot, do or die.

wirelessdude01

I still think a Horan/Rochford ticket would be the dream team. Horan is a total football type manager whereas Rochford would study and analyse the opposition to the tiniest detail and then adapt the team to negate their strengths but also exploit their weak points. Rochford very much was a horses for courses type manager.

charlie14

PressRun wrote: »

I suspect it will be a bit of a pasting too tbh, but sure I'd rather be in the final than not. Though I suspect this is all happening a year or two earlier than Horan was expecting, but we are where we are now.

The differences between Horan and Rochford are fairly stark. Horan just has a football philosophy that he subscribes to and doesn't seem to believe in tailoring games to suit opposition. Rochford was more tactically minded for sure. I always think back on the Tyrone game in 2016. Was a cagey game that probably wasn't particularly entertaining for the neutral and we did nearly blow it (of course), but Rochford got so much right that day. I'm sure Tony McEntee had a big input on that game too. It was a great overall management performance.

That Cavan would take a bit of a pasting in the Ulster Final was the general consensus as well.
Final can take on a life of their own where past form and results go out the window.

RedDevil55

Rochford did like tweaking the team around but against Dublin it was always man on man pretty much. No different to Horan.

I always felt some of Rochford's innovations put a straight jacket on the team. Like against Tipperary in 2016 playing Barry Moran as sweeper. We won so you can say it worked, but I think it would have been a bigger win if we just played our natural style. Arguably our best 2 games under Rochford were the replay against Roscommon and the all Ireland final in 2017. On both occasions we went out and played our natural high tempo attacking game with no extravagant sweepers or midfielders playing full back!

PressRun

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I am curious now. Which manager do you think could get more out of the players available? Either from Mayo currently or fellas that would have expressed interest in the past? Because I think the Mayo job would be a dream job for any intercounty manager.
Low expectation, but seems to be talent coming through. Mixed with the old heads.
I think Horan has the hard part done for any future manager, and blooded the younger lads.

I think Horan is great at building teams and bringing talent through. Cillian, the O'Sheas, Jason Doherty and a few others were all brought on under Horan. He recalled Colm Boyle to the panel after he'd been dropped by O'Mahony and brought Lee Keegan back into the intercounty fold too when it was really touch and go on whether he would have a proper Gaelic football career. He has an eye for talent, for sure. And he seems to inspire great loyalty and buy-in from players who make it onto his team.

That said, his approach to the game is definitely based around a philosophy that I think you're actually more likely to find in the underage game - very free, expressive, swashbuckling etc. It can be fun to watch and fun to play. But it can also be very naive.

Rochford was probably more cautious, while also having a flair for unpredictability with player roles etc. While Horan's attitude is that you don't set up for the opposition, let them set up for you, Rochford I think recognised a need to play the opposition sometimes, especially with the strengths and weaknesses of our squad being as they were. I think we were more solid defensively under Rochford & co. I think Rochford understood that there were limitations to the squad that sometimes required a level of caution in how we played, and sometimes nullifying an opponent instead of inviting a wild shoot out can actually work and players can be used in versatile ways to make this happen. I think he made great use of our defensive units and got the very best out of them. Could be argued that he maybe over-thought things at times, but I think we were in many ways more solid under him and he was a lot less predictable in how he viewed the game than Horan. If we had an extra forward like a Tommy Conroy in 2016 or 2017, we might have even gotten over the line.

PressRun

charlie14 wrote: »

That Cavan would take a bit of a pasting in the Ulster Final was the general consensus as well.
Final can take on a life of their own where past form and results go out the window.

Of course. Anything can happen on any day. No one would be happier than me to be wrong. It's just how I feel.

seligehgit

Yikes Big Bird should write a book!

Article regaling the skulduggery and lifetime friendships built amongst the band of brothers.

I can vouch for The Gingerman,years of experience.:D

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40149311.html

Green&Red

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I am curious now. Which manager do you think could get more out of the players available? Either from Mayo currently or fellas that would have expressed interest in the past? Because I think the Mayo job would be a dream job for any intercounty manager.
Low expectation, but seems to be talent coming through. Mixed with the old heads.
I think Horan has the hard part done for any future manager, and blooded the younger lads.

I’m not sure how much more any manager could have gotten out of this county for the last 10 years. We’ve over achieved in a lot of ways. Fifth all- Ireland final in 10 years but up against the greatest football team we’ve ever seen.

Rochford gets the a lot of stick for the goalie swap. He spoke about it in the examiner podcast last week, still sounds like he thinks it was the right idea, just the wrong outcome. Clarke has the massive saves but he’s probably the main reason we’ll lose next week, midfield will be a bloodbath and we have no plan B (at least not yet). Hennelly has great kick outs but has zero big game temperament, the list is huge, minor final, last two county finals, that ‘17 final. Limerick if you were being harsh.

But he got so much right, O’Shea full back was so ballsy, twice. Dillon against Tyrone, Keegan on Smith

I don’t think Mayo would be suitable to McGuinness. Maybe before Horan came in day 1 but definitely not now. And probably not for Mayo supporters, we like our football, it’s why we love this team, they’re beautiful to watch. It’s why we looked down or noses at Walsh in Galway.

I’d love to see what Gavin could do with us, other than that I don’t think there’s a current or past manager out there that could do the job or that I’d like to see get the job.

seligehgit

Can't agree that David Clarke will be the main reason we lose next Saturday.

A possible contributory factor but simply man on man Dublin have a superior 15/21 than we have ATM if both sides play to their potential.

We're a team in transition with a lot of potentially great albeit inexperienced newcomers.

I'll eat my hat but I don't believe those current Horan incarnation is as good as the golden era team of the 2013-2017 era at the present time and it's arguable Dublin are now quite a bit superior to their team of that time.


Offensively we may possibly be more threatening.Conroy is a gem who will flourish for many years even if he's shackled in the final,hopefully not.It's many a long year since Cillian was in such good nick.No league football for him going forward.I am of course mindful that Andy Moran is an immense loss ditto Doc but defensively thus far we are nowhere near our previous standards.

David Clarke's kickouts are a weakness but one can't make him shoulder all the responsibility.We truly miss the Seamie O Shea's and Tom Parsons's physicality and aerial ability.

Matthew Ruane and Conor Loftus bring a different set of skill sets: mobility, ability to pick a pass and keep the scoreboard ticking over.

But Fenton lies in their way and probably Howard.

We'll mix up the kickouts,quick short high percentage ones and set plays going long out towards the sideline away from Fenton and endeavour to swarm and win possession.

Perplexed as the reasons Farrell isn't starting Howard and Mannion.

They must be injured,those quality of players don't turn bad overnight.

Hardly saving them to blow us away in the final 20 minutes.Only my opinion but I've never been a fan of some managers tendency to finish with their strongest 15.

Who knows Dublin could have an off day and we could pick a day to be on fire.

To dream.

wirelessdude01

seligehgit wrote: »

Perplexed as the reasons Farrell isn't starting Howard and Mannion.
.

Who do you drop from thr 15 that has been starting?

Paddy Small more 5hsn deserves his place going on club form during the summer and also what he has done since he got the 13 jersey.

From what I've heard Mannion was injured earlier in the year, rushed his comeback for Crokes and suffered further injury and has had form since he came back.

Howard is someone that for me didn't work hard enough during the enforced break. Saw him twice for Raheny and he wouldn't have caught the eye and was carrying timber.

gormdubhgorm

I know some people will probably laugh, and I know we have been very lucky with a fairly weather for this Winter Championship.

If the weather is really windy, hailstones and the like, could really make Dec 19th a bit of leveller. The last league game Dublin played (with a crowd) was in torrential wind and rain. A low scoring game. And Tyrone won by 3 points in Omagh.

When Dublin beat Kerry in 2015 and it was on a dirty day in the lashings of rain. It was a very low scoring game as a result.

Plus any time I have been to the West of Ireland 'a nice soft day', is almost classed as nice weather. Plenty of practice for the Mayo lads. So I think Mayo would love a manky, very cold, windy, rainy, day in Dublin next week.

wirelessdude01

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I know some people will probably laugh, and I know we have been very lucky with a fairly weather for this Winter Championship.

If the weather is really windy, hailstones and the like, could really make Dec 19th a bit of leveller. The last league game Dublin played (with a crowd) was in torrential wind and rain. A low scoring game. And Tyrone won by 3 points in Omagh.

When Dublin beat Kerry in 2015 and it was on a dirty day in the lashings of rain. It was a very low scoring game as a result.

Plus any time I have been to the West of Ireland 'a nice soft day', is almost classed as nice weather. Plenty of practice for the Mayo lads. So I think Mayo would love a manky, very cold, windy, rainy, day in Dublin next week.

Personally always think Mayo play better when it is dry. The game they are built to play and the team its self isn't built for slobbering.

km79

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Personally always think Mayo play better when it is dry. The game they are built to play and the team its self isn't built for slobbering.

I agree
We need dry ball

RedDevil55

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Personally always think Mayo play better when it is dry. The game they are built to play and the team its self isn't built for slobbering.

A bit of rain would be no harm. A greasy ball should mean less high fielding from kickouts and more breaking ball. Should also make it easier for our forwards to win turnovers.

Torrential rain and gale force winds wouldn't be any addition of course.

wirelessdude01

RedDevil55 wrote: »

A bit of rain would be no harm. A greasy ball should mean less high fielding from kickouts and more breaking ball. Should also make it easier for our forwards to win turnovers.

Torrential rain and gale force winds wouldn't be any addition of course.

We aren't the best for slobbery, breaking ball when our two best breaking ball winners in Boyle and Jason aren't there.

RedDevil55

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

We aren't the best for slobbery, breaking ball when our two best breaking ball winners in Boyle and Jason aren't there.

Roscommon and Tipperary had a much taller midfield and we cleaned both of them on breaking ball. We'll have to do similar against Dublin to have any chance.

I always feel a sunny dry day is better for the favourites which isn't us on this occasion.

seligehgit

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Who do you drop from thr 15 that has been starting?

Paddy Small more 5hsn deserves his place going on club form during the summer and also what he has done since he got the 13 jersey.

From what I've heard Mannion was injured earlier in the year, rushed his comeback for Crokes and suffered further injury and has had form since he came back.

Howard is someone that for me didn't work hard enough during the enforced break. Saw him twice for Raheny and he wouldn't have caught the eye and was carrying timber.

You've pretty much answered your own question re whom to drop Small for Mannion.

I'd agreed from watching Dublin and Ballymun Kickhams Small has performed well but IMO he isn't quite there yet vis a vis Paul Mannion.

Fair play re your familiarity with the Dublin club scene.

All now makes sense re Howard.

Definitely to our advantage he appears to have not been willing to put in the whole nine yards.He has been without a doubt one of their truly outstanding players in recent years.

I've seen much speculation Sean Bugler might make way for him.

wirelessdude01

seligehgit wrote: »

You've pretty much answered your own question re whom to drop Small for Mannion.

I'd agreed from watching Dublin and Ballymun Kickhams Small has performed well but IMO he isn't quite there yet vis a vis Paul Mannion.

Fair play re your familiarity with the Dublin club scene.

All now makes sense re Howard.

Definitely to our advantage he appears to have not been willing to put in the whole nine yards.He has been without a doubt one of their truly outstanding players in recent years.

I've seen much speculation Sean Bugler might make way for him.

Wouldn't say I've much familiarity but I went to a good few club games this summer when I could as I'm quite close. Most senior club team setups would rival county teams outside of the top six. The amount of money floating about is phenomenal.

Coillte_Bhoy

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I know some people will probably laugh, and I know we have been very lucky with a fairly weather for this Winter Championship.

If the weather is really windy, hailstones and the like, could really make Dec 19th a bit of leveller. The last league game Dublin played (with a crowd) was in torrential wind and rain. A low scoring game. And Tyrone won by 3 points in Omagh.

When Dublin beat Kerry in 2015 and it was on a dirty day in the lashings of rain. It was a very low scoring game as a result.

Plus any time I have been to the West of Ireland 'a nice soft day', is almost classed as nice weather. Plenty of practice for the Mayo lads. So I think Mayo would love a manky, very cold, windy, rainy, day in Dublin next week.

I dunno, i remember a couple of NFL games with the Dubs in Castlebar over these past few years and us getting destroyed on the pitch and pelted with sleety rain on the terraces and thinking 'why the **** did we leave Mick Byrnes'

wirelessdude01

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

We started back training tonight with our underage team. One of the other managers said he expects Dublin to open an almighty can of whoopass on us. Was adamant it will happen due to Horans lack of ability to react "in game". This man and his family are big Mayo supporters but said Rochie always tailored games to the opposition which is very true.

I think that’s less the case than during his previous term. As another poster said his time as a sky analyst seems to have developed that side of his skills.

Saying that we need to be ready for this tactic, we’ve started the last few games well and the opposition didn’t bounce back. We need to think back to the Tyrone league game for the last slow start when we gave ourselves a mountain to climb. We need to learn from that game, key to steady the ship early on. My biggest fear would be Dublin putting an early big score up.

On another note. I hope the extended squad are being super sensible on isolating. Looking at latest reported cases on 10th Dec, we are #2 after Dublin for that days reported cases which seems bad considering our population. We are a bit better on the 14day average but cases are on the rise in the county.

Hope people are sensible with their gatherings for next Sunday. it’s making me think twice

irishgeo

Mayo_fan wrote: »

On another note. I hope the extended squad are being super sensible on isolating. Looking at latest reported cases on 10th Dec, we are #2 after Dublin for that days reported cases which seems bad considering our population. We are a bit better on the 14day average but cases are on the rise in the county.

Hope people are sensible with their gatherings for next Sunday. it’s making me think twice

That's related to the outbreak in Claremorris.