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Abortion Discussion, Part the Fourth

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    #482
    aloyisious
    Registered Users Posts: 11,587 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    The only solution I have so far come up with is giving men the right to forgo their rights and responsibilities as parents up until the 12th week of pregnancy. The problem with this is that the state will have to pick up the tab. It is bad enough that we tax payers pay for the terrible decisions of all the single mothers out there. Also, what if the woman decided to tell the guy she was pregnant at 13 weeks, how would it work then?

    I reckon in future that I'll have to consider the content of your posts very carefully before deciding on whether to [deleted] reply as your position on abortion seems to be shifting away from being OK with it to being slanted against women being [edited] allowed freedom to make the choice for themselves. Your mention of the costs to the [Irish?] state and the [Irish?] taxpayer is surprising given how it seemed you were coming at the issue of abortion from that of rights of the woman, her male partner and the foetus in her womb. Presumably, given how you seemed agreeable for pregnant women to have the right to choose yea or nay on abortion for themselves, you voted yes in the referendum to delete the 8th. EDIT: I see you posted in reply to an O/P that you voted to repeal the 8th.

    I see you have also decided to introduce the social "being single" issue as well where it comes to pregnant woman into the debate as something you feel is important. I don't know how that may bear on a woman's right to choose for you to be in accord with her right to have an abortion, as outlined in your previous "I'M OK with abortion" position. The issue of pregnant women being single and wanting abortions is something from the anti-abortion handbook on how to get people turn away from being in agreement to letting women have any right to decide on the future of their pregnancies. Its their way to debase women's rights and status in society back to that promoted by established "No sex outside marriage" enthusiasts.


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    #483
    Charles Ingles
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,181 ✭✭✭Charles Ingles


    Abortion should not be used as a form of birth control.
    Abortion results in the death of a baby no matter what type of language that you use.
    Sex within marriage only would stop all this, life is precious and shouldn't be snuffed out on a whim


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    #484
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,488 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Charles Ingles wrote: »
    Abortion should not be used as a form of birth control.

    Ah sweet jesus it's as if we have been transported back to before the referendum.
    Abortion results in the death of a baby no matter what type of language that you use.

    This is your opinion, you are entitledto this opinion but it's also my right to say your opinion is wrong.
    Sex within marriage only would stop all this, life is precious and shouldn't be snuffed out on a whim

    So what would be your solution? Ban sex before marraige? How would you police that? What about abortion in the case of rape or when the life of the mother is at risk?


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    #485
    Calina
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    Also recorded rapes for Ireland 2017 was 655. CEO release is here https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-rc/recordedcrimeq42017/ although I believe they come from An Garda Síochána. The question of data quality I cannot comment on as I do not know what the CSO’s concerns are. I might have added the figures for domestic violence which is also significantly higher than misattributed paternity is. I believe that figure is ca 20% of women in a relationship. However I don’t Have the figure for men. Those figures are for Ireland.

    Apparently SAVI research suggests about 8% of women and 1% of men in Ireland report their rapes although I would like to hope that that has improved. I need to look up a reference for that as though and time has elapsed since that research was done. However even if half all rapes were reported, rather than less than 10 per cent, it is still a higher figure than the 22 babies per week you cited as being likely to be be the subject of paternity fraud.


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    #486
    Calina
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    Charles Ingles wrote: »
    Abortion should not be used as a form of birth control.
    Abortion results in the death of a baby no matter what type of language that you use.
    Sex within marriage only would stop all this, life is precious and shouldn't be snuffed out on a whim

    Knock yourself out then and live that way. But you cannot compel others to do so.

    Your second bullet point I already dealt with before breakfast.


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    #487
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    aloyisious wrote: »
    However I'll readily acknowledge you did not provide details on how you voted

    You clearly have not read my posts.


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    #488
    Charles Ingles
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,181 ✭✭✭Charles Ingles


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    Ah sweet jesus it's as if we have been transported back to before the referendum.



    This is your opinion, you are entitledto this opinion but it's also my right to say your opinion is wrong.



    So what would be your solution? Ban sex before marraige? How would you police that? What about abortion in the case of rape or when the life of the mother is at risk?

    It not my opinion that abortion results in the death of a baby that's a fact.!!!

    Of course we can't ban sex before marriage but we can encourage it, teach our children morals.
    Abortion for extreme examples you quoted I'd agree with for the health of the mother.
    Just not abortion on demand as a form of birth control


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    #489
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,488 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Charles Ingles wrote: »
    It not my opinion that abortion results in the death of a baby that's a fact.!!!


    It's really not, no matter how many exclamation marks you use.
    Of course we can't ban sex before marriage but we can encourage it, teach our children morals.
    Abortion for extreme examples you quoted I'd agree with for the health of the mother.
    Just not abortion on demand as a form of birth control

    This may come as a surprise to you but sex is very pleasurable and people will have sex for pleasure, you want everyone to stay a virgin until they are married?


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    #490
    Charles Ingles
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,181 ✭✭✭Charles Ingles


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    It's really not, no matter how many exclamation marks you use.



    This may come as a surprise to you but sex is very pleasurable and people will have sex for pleasure, you want everyone to stay a virgin until they are married?

    So what is the result of abortion??
    Please answer this question nobody ever Will..

    Also I think sex should be kept within the confines of a loving relationship ideally marriage makes it even more special.


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    #491
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,488 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Charles Ingles wrote: »
    So what is the result of abortion??
    Please answer this question nobody ever Will..

    Its the termination of a clump of cells, cells that have no sentient or feelings.
    Also I think sex should be kept within the confines of a loving relationship ideally marriage makes it even more special.

    Yeah good luck with that, its 2019 not 1919


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    #492
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,217 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Charles Ingles wrote: »
    So what is the result of abortion??
    Please answer this question nobody ever Will..

    Also I think sex should be kept within the confines of a loving relationship ideally marriage makes it even more special.

    The result is that there is no baby, same as having sex when using contraception such as the pill.

    By the way, a significant number of women who have abortions are married or in a couple. Why do you think it's only single girls? Numbers of children per family have fallen drastically, and while contraception is by far the easiest way couples can achieve this, abortion is also used by stable couples faced with a crisis pregnancy.


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    #493
    aloyisious
    Registered Users Posts: 11,587 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    You clearly have not read my posts.

    If you scroll back to my previous, You will see that I did and edited it to show that fact before you posted the above.


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    #494
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Charles Ingles wrote: »
    Abortion should not be used as a form of birth control.
    Abortion results in the death of a baby no matter what type of language that you use.
    Sex within marriage only would stop all this, life is precious and shouldn't be snuffed out on a whim

    Believe it or not Charles a lot of married women have abortions too.


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    #495
    Charles Ingles
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,181 ✭✭✭Charles Ingles


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    Its the termination of a clump of cells, cells that have no sentient or feelings.



    Yeah good luck with that, its 2019 not 1919

    A clump of cells...
    Wow is all I can say a beautiful life wiped out for convenience.
    I actually don't know if you are serious life is far more precious than that


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    #496
    uptherebels
    Registered Users Posts: 1,588 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    Charles Ingles wrote: »
    Sex within marriage only would stop all this, life is precious and shouldn't be snuffed out on a whim

    Wow, so married women don't have abortions?
    How many women do you think have an abortion on a whim?


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    #497
    Charles Ingles
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,181 ✭✭✭Charles Ingles


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Believe it or not Charles a lot of married women have abortions too.

    Well says a lot about the state of their marriage.
    Abortion should only be allowed in cases of rape and FFA


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    #498
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,488 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Charles Ingles wrote: »
    A clump of cells...
    Wow is all I can say a beautiful life wiped out for convenience.
    I actually don't know if you are serious life is far more precious than that

    Up to 12 weeks thats all it is, you may not like my description but it's a true description non the less.


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    #499
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,488 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Charles Ingles wrote: »
    Well says a lot about the state of their marriage.
    Abortion should only be allowed in cases of rape and FFA

    Please elaborate on the bolded part.


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    #500
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Charles Ingles wrote: »
    Well says a lot about the state of their marriage.
    Abortion should only be allowed in cases of rape and FFA

    What does it say about their marriage Charles?


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    #501
    aloyisious
    Registered Users Posts: 11,587 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    Charles Ingles wrote: »
    Well says a lot about the state of their marriage.
    Abortion should only be allowed in cases of rape and FFA

    I'll readily state that, from my POV on abortion, that yours above is an advancement on what I supposed your position on abortion was, that it was an all out NO. As for what is growing within a pregnant woman's womb, it's not just a technical description up to a certain stage to say it's a group of cells and that is certified by examination of medical textbooks and published images of early pregnancies.


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    #502
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,407 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    Ah sweet jesus it's as if we have been transported back to before the referendum.
    Your tone is not helpful.
    Calina wrote: »
    Knock yourself out then and live that way. But you cannot compel others to do so.
    Your tone is unhelpful.
    Charles Ingles wrote: »
    It not my opinion that abortion results in the death of a baby that's a fact.!!!
    I've asked that disputed opinions are not stated as fact.
    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    Its the termination of a clump of cells, cells that have no sentient or feelings.
    I've asked that disputed opinions are not stated as fact.

    Any more borderline incivility, stating opinions as facts or anything else deemed incompatible with a peaceful discussion might be edited or deleted and the poster moderated.


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    #503
    aloyisious
    Registered Users Posts: 11,587 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    On an aside but pertinent part of the debate here in Ireland, the NO campaign has not gone away. The Pro-life Campaign Ireland has a sponsored Ad on Facebook looking for canvassers for pro-life Candidates for the local and European elections, so its safe to reckon one might meet canvassers on the doorstep or on the street.


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    #504
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,217 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Charles Ingles wrote: »
    A clump of cells...
    Wow is all I can say a beautiful life wiped out for convenience.
    I actually don't know if you are serious life is far more precious than that
    If people really thought life was precious, children wouldn't be dying every single day from easily preventable things like dirty water and malnutrition. Children would all be cared for and educated, instead of being abused and exploited as so many of them are.

    Meanwhile yet another person randomly bringing yet another unwanted baby into the world that they won't be able to care for properly is "respecting life" in your view, is it?

    Why is life only precious to you inside the womb, but once it's born it can go hang, apparently?


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    #505
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    Charles Ingles wrote: »
    Well says a lot about the state of their marriage.
    Abortion should only be allowed in cases of rape and FFA

    If “abortion results in the death of a baby” and abortion is the ending of a “beautiful little life for convenience” - why do you, yourself, conveniently devalue that “baby” and it’s “beautiful little life” if it was conceived due to rape?

    Is it only a “baby” and a “beautiful little life” if it was conceived consensually, Charles?


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    #506
    Charles Ingles
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,181 ✭✭✭Charles Ingles


    volchitsa wrote: »
    If people really thought life was precious, children wouldn't be dying every single day from easily preventable things like dirty water and malnutrition. Children would all be cared for and educated, instead of being abused and exploited as so many of them are.

    Meanwhile yet another person randomly bringing yet another unwanted baby into the world that they won't be able to care for properly is "respecting life" in your view, is it?

    Why is life only precious to you inside the womb, but once it's born it can go hang, apparently?

    I'll respectively disagree, seems debate is going to be shut down


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    #507
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Charles Ingles wrote: »
    I'll respectively disagree, seems debate is going to be shut down

    It's a fair question. What are people who are anti abortion doing to help the children who are actually here?


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    #508
    Charles Ingles
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,181 ✭✭✭Charles Ingles


    robarmstrong wrote: »
    If “abortion results in the death of a baby” and abortion is the ending of a “beautiful little life for convenience” - why do you, yourself, conveniently devalue that “baby” and it’s “beautiful little life” if it was conceived due to rape?

    Is it only a “baby” and a “beautiful little life” if it was conceived consensually, Charles?

    I don't devalue the life of any baby.
    A child born through rape is still a beautiful life.
    But I wouldn't for a minute think a woman raped should be forced to have a child conceived through rape.
    Anyway I'll leave you all to pat each other on the back in agreement.
    I'm off to mass


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    #509
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    robindch wrote: »
    Mod:While the above clearly wasn't clear enough, discussion concerning, and using, the term "murder" continues unabated - but unlike previously, one inch on the right side of descending into incivility. Keep it that way and there'll be no moderation requiredUsing the term "politically correct" in that witless fashion amounts to trolling in this forum - cut it out or you will be moderated.You perhaps missed the several thousand posts in this thread where this exact point has been discussed. Please do not call something "a fact" when it is clearly disputed on the grounds that neither side has made any significant effort to find common ground from which an agreed definition can arise.Neither of these posts contributes positively to the forum. Timberrrrrrrr - you will recall that implying that another poster is a liar is against the forum charter. Your next allegation to that effect will see you moderated too.

    Robin could I just make an insert here - the discussion itself is irrelevant as an abortion is not performed with “pills” at 8 months in that hypothetical scenario, abortion after 6 months is performed with an injection of different chemicals.

    So abortion pills “crushed up” and given to a heavily pregnant won’t work, as the pills are designed for pregnancy far less developed. In pill form, or “spiking” a pregnant woman’s drink, it would pretty much follow a normal attempt at overdosing or poisoning, as the fetus is far too developed for the methods mentioned above (ground cyanide, etc, you’d basically have to overdose the mother to overdose the fetus).


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    #510
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    Charles Ingles wrote: »
    I don't devalue the life of any baby.
    A child born through rape is still a beautiful life.
    But I wouldn't for a minute think a woman raped should be forced to have a child conceived through rape.
    Anyway I'll leave you all to pat each other on the back in agreement.
    I'm off to mass

    But you are devaluing the life of that “baby” by saying that the matter of conception is justifiable to terminate the pregnancy (ending its life).

    So you don’t devalue the life of any “baby”, but by stating you think abortion should be allowed in the case of rape, you are indirectly devaluing that “life”.

    Enjoy mass.


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    #511
    Charles Ingles
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,181 ✭✭✭Charles Ingles


    robarmstrong wrote: »
    But you are devaluing the life of that “baby” by saying that the matter of conception is justifiable to terminate the pregnancy (ending its life).

    So you don’t devalue the life of any “baby”, but by stating you think abortion should be allowed in the case of rape, you are indirectly devaluing that “life”.

    Enjoy mass.

    I personally wouldn't encourage any member of my family to have an abortion under any circumstances.
    But I wouldn't expect everyone to live by the Catholic ethos that I do


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