Electric, Hydrogen & Hybrid Electric Buses in Ireland

john boye

Was the heating working? Or on but not very effective? The one I was on the other week was like an ice box.

AX636

That's one of a long list of issues the drivers have given to the unions, the cab and saloon are like ice blocks

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121631737#Comment_121631737

On and sufficient for the temperatures but I could easily see it being cold in the drivers cabin.

AX636

The NTA and dept of transport where in Summerhill the other day, talking about issues with the electric buses, the NTA said to DB to ground the buses on the weekend because wait for it , they are using to much electricity when charging them. Now they have told DB only 10 can be charged at a time,

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121681379#Comment_121681379

I’d guess ESB networks sent word that they were racing too much power. Obviously the ESB will need to pull their finger out and fix that.

john boye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121681379#Comment_121681379

Summerhill must be getting pretty crowded if they're taking in new electrics all the time but can't risk withdrawing/transferring older buses out if the electrics can't be used.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121682140#Comment_121682140

It's complete crap planning in typical Irish fashion they shouldn't have placed an order for electrics until the charging infrastructure was in place. But no the NTA in their infinite wisdom know better.

AX636

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121682140#Comment_121682140

They have stopped taking any until issues are resolved

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121682237#Comment_121682237

Why blame the NTA, if the ESB built a substation without enough power to support it, that is very much on them.

That is why substations take so long to build, the ESB is supposed to do detailed planning to make sure that the local area can handle the planned output of the substation and make upgrades if it doesn’t.

The NTA would have no way of knowing what the local network is capable off, that is the ESB’s area of expertise.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121632203#Comment_121632203

Sat upstairs on one on Friday morning, it was not sufficiently warm. Probably a few spots nearest heater outlets that aren't a little chilly.

Electric double deckers are still a pretty new technology, not sure we really should have jumped so early but someone has to.

Burt Renaults

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121684683#Comment_121684683

Based on their previous impulsive purchases (a good example would be the Wrightbus Streetlite, which were very obviously bought without being driven beforehand), I'd be cynical about whether or not they even asked the ESB before splashing out on them.

john boye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121685332#Comment_121685332

That's it exactly. The ESB may be at fault in this instance but if the NTA had considered that charging a lot of buses might need a lot of power right at the start then this problem could have been identified a lot earlier. It should be said that DB themselves aren't completely blameless either as they screwed up the first PP submission which further delayed things.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121685332#Comment_121685332

That isn’t how this works, the ESB are the ones who authorise the building and connection of a substation. It is their responsibility. I’m not saying that the NTA haven't made mistakes along the way, but the substation and ensuring that it doesn’t overload the network is 100% the ESB’s job.

It would simply be impossible for the NTA to know anything about the capacity of the ESB network.

Trouwe Ier

We don't know the full details of what the problem is in Summerhill.

However, to be fair to DB and the NTA, as bk implies, if there is a capacity issue with the local electricity distribution/transmission network then that is for ESB Networks to address.

DB/NTA would have applied in good faith for a connection and substation.

To the best of my knowledge ESB Networks would then have had to undertake a network capacity assessment, based obviously on the information provided to them.

If they deemed that the capacity was available and then agreed to the connection, then subject to what the contract states, they will have to take the financial hit to upgrade the local network if it is incapable of providing the power UNLESS they were basing their calculations on faulty information supplied to them by DB/NTA (unlikely), in which case it could be over to the barristers.

I know in the case of Roxboro that a dedicated feed was laid from the large and recently modernised substation at Singland (for a distance of about 1.2 km) to the substation at the depot so the power being drawn by the EWDs should have no impact at all on any of the MV network near the depot and (hopefully, anway) lightning won't strike twice.

Summerhill will be sorted. There are bound to be bump and hiccups along the way.

StreetLight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121685797#Comment_121685797

Thinking they knew about how to run a transport system never stopped them.

devnull

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121685332#Comment_121685332

State bodies don't get to choose who they buy vehicles from, they have to issue a tender and whoever gets the highest score gets the order. It's not like a private company where you just approach a company and buy what you want.

Burt Renaults

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121686488#Comment_121686488

The quality of the actual product itself is included in that score. When those things were bought, someone wasn't doing their job properly.

dfx-

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121686488#Comment_121686488

It would be great to know how this was scored. The ability to power them and use them was hopefully a factor above price and 'greenness'.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121685848#Comment_121685848

The charging infrastructure should've been put in place before any electric buses were ordered. Don't the PAs have a plug in facility has this been utilised at all yet wasn't this the original plan for the PAs to act a litmus test for fully electric buses.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121686183#Comment_121686183

Well they have done a much better job at it then CIE or any of their subsidiaries have ever done!

dublinman1990

Would this issue of voltage for chargers between ESB Networks and the NTA become a big problem with the other Dublin Bus depots trying to apply for planning permission to access sufficient voltage requirements for each charging station in the near future. Most of the Dublin Bus depots are located in places within a certain radius away from the City Centre. The only exception in this case is Harristown being located out on a site near the slip road to Dublin Airport.

The same question about having access to the correct voltage requirements for charging buses in Go Ahead Ireland's depot in Ballymount should be asked as well. Although with Go Ahead Ireland's depot being built right inside an industrial estate just off the M50. Go Ahead Ireland shouldn't really have any issues with charging their buses because there are other sites located around them that are feeding their electricity supply from the same chain that is being provided by either ESB Networks/Eirgrid.

Would Bus Eireann encounter similar issues with their depots in Athenry, Capwell and in Waterford in the near future?

The depots in Athlone and Roxboro in Limerick would appear to seem largely issue free to date.

KildareP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121689217#Comment_121689217

Ballymount was built for industrial purposes and has a relatively modern high capacity grid network in place, the vast majority of it being overhead, and was designed for heavy industry requiring high power flows.

Summerhill's grid by comparison will be significantly older, is most likely largely underground, and designed in an era where the idea that a single customer feeding off it - never mind a bus depot - would require a multiple MW import capacity was an utterly ridiculous concept to even consider allowing for.

Quite possibly it's a case that from an operational point of view they need to start charging busses from early afternoon to be able to rotate the fleet through the number of available chargers in time for them all to be ready for the following day's service?

The capacity most likely isn't there to have all charging units going full pelt until later on into the evening and overnight hours. Eirgrid do already have arrangements with other large energy users to back off from the grid during peak times.

bk

ESB Networks have a project called Powering Up Dublin, which involves upgrading 5 of their substations across Dublin and building new underground power cables across Dublin. It is going to be a major project.

There say there are a couple of reasons for it, to replace 50+ year old power lines that are starting to fail and to also prepare the network for more renewables and the electrification of transport. Unfortunately it won't be complete until 2029!

I'm just surprised the ESB gave the go ahead for the depot upgrades if the local network couldn't take it. If it is true, then they definitely mucked up!

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121689751#Comment_121689751

Speaking of, ESB just announced the routes and substation locations for this upgrade.

https://twitter.com/thejournal_ie/status/1752215062838726704

dublinman1990

I'd imagine the roads will have to be dug up to allow the ESB install these cables. How would they do it when going underwater from Poolbeg to Rock Road in Booterstown? It's going to be a very hard job to get them installed underneath the Dart line between Booterstown and Blackrock.

KildareP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121689751#Comment_121689751

I would imagine it's a case of damned if they did and damned if they didn't.

Had they outright refused the import capacity requested because of grid constraints (which may only be at certain times of the day) then everyone would be up in arms that ESB Networks were hindering progress.

Trouwe Ier

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121693402#Comment_121693402

A very good question but that should be no problem at all as the feeder line from Singland Substation to Roxboro Substation was "moled" in November under the railway tracks to the south-east of Colbert Station where there are about six parallel tracks.

Obviously a launch pit and reception pit were required and the work was reportedly done during the graveyard shift but moling has been around for decades and I had some involvement in my previous life.

It might also be possible to recycle old ducting in places.

There are sure to be constraints in inner-suburban areas given the age of the infrastructure and the historical lack of heavy industrial demand so maybe they were factors in Roxboro's case..

halfpastneverr

The electric buses not being in service, & the outdated single-door buses like EV & AX class having to be resurrected are making life even more miserable for commuters. Was on one on the 51D the other morning which was rammed as usual, but the driver was insisting/shouting repeatedly that nobody stands in the aisle because it slows down people getting on/off via the front door. The problem is that the service is over capacity already & there is nowhere else to bloody stand. At least on the double-door vehicles, you can have a few people standing in the aisle as people use the middle door to exit. Another job well done by the NTA.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121696550#Comment_121696550

Well from what others have said, this is only impacting their use at the weekend, I’ve certainly seen them out this week. There are less buses out on the weekend due to lower frequency, so even without the Ew’s out there should still be enough double door buses to cover weekend services.

The old single door buses are mostly used on the weekday peak services.