Munster Team Talk Thread - Snymans are(n't) Forever

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119692552#Comment_119692552

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119694169#Comment_119694169

I'm sure he's a nice guy and everything, but it's bang average (at best) players like him who've amassed a huge amount of caps in a pivotal position that is the key reason why Munster haven't had any success in 11 years or so.

Red Silurian

A few bits that were overheard from the terrace in Musgrave Park on Saturday

Stop pointing at the ball and play it

This isn't a game of Hot Potatoe

You need to go forwards with the ball, not backwards when you have posession

Throw the ball in straight

Don't knock on... Ah for F###, just as I say it

And the men were worse... It's good to be back for sure

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119694698#Comment_119694698

What other players, out of interest? The only other player I can think of might be Billy Holland, and he was really valuable to Munster.

I’d agree to a point RE: Archer in recent years, but for a large part of that 11 year period, Archer wasn’t 1st choice. Ryan was ahead of him for a good while, and BJ Botha was 1st choice for his entire spell. (A player who’d be worth his weight in gold to Munster at the moment).

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119694621#Comment_119694621

I’m not sure he wasn’t offered a contract. I think he was but the money wasn’t near what Leicester were offering. All provinces had their budgets reduced.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119694788#Comment_119694788

Billy Holland was the other guy in the head tbh, but I think the squad has generally carried some deadweight. The first XV has generally been good over the period, but the depth hasn't always been.

I'd be lumping guys like Dan Goggin, Neil Cronin, Rory Scannell, Rhys Marshall, Arno Botha, Dave O'Callaghan, Duncan Williams etc into that group. They aren't bad players but they're poor Pro12 standard at best.

I do think they've some exciting young talent now though. I really like Patrick Campbell, think he has a real spark about him, really talented footballer. Saturday was my first time seeing Conor Philips but thought he looked pretty good. Obviously Kendellen looks like a 50 cap international, and Edogbo looked really physical when he came on. I watched the game the other night specifically to see Ruadhan Quinn, after reading about his pre-season. He didn't disappoint. Looks absolutely the real deal.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119694847#Comment_119694847

he wasnt offered a contract, hes said so himself.

“I was gutted,” says loosehead prop Cronin. “It’s my home club. I was willing to take a pay cut to play for my province but even with a pay cut, they still couldn’t give me an offer.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119694908#Comment_119694908

But the important point there is “says the loosehead prop”, while he was mentioned in a discussion about Archer and Ryan.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119694893#Comment_119694893

I think that’s incredibly harsh on Billy Holland tbh; he’s absolutely the kind of guy you’d want in your wider squad, particularly when some of the first choice guys are away.

But I agree to different degrees with the other players, tho poor Pro12 standard is definitely harsh. For example, Dave O’Callaghan was perennially injured. And Arno Botha was a decent signing, imo.

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119694711#Comment_119694711

Surely somebody mentioned the necessity of the linesman to visit an opticians?

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119694918#Comment_119694918

im not sure IOs argument was an erroneous one thinking that cronin was a tighthead.

i think they were responding to ciarans suggestion that archer (perhaps) was playing to a higher standard than Ryan, and therefore retained, with IOs suggestion that munster have form for letting better players go while retaining 'lesser' players (for want of a better word) and using cronin as the example.... and showing that the decision not to retain cronin was not a monetary decision, as he wasnt offered a contract.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119694953#Comment_119694953

They do that in every match, I was talking about specifically for this one

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119694941#Comment_119694941

I remember a league game last season and billy was on the bench, we couldn't win a line out even by accident and it was reflected on the scoreboard.

He came on and we won every lineout from then on, and the game.

He was a great player and his ability and skill got him onto the bench when ireland beat NZ for the first time, but he was probably 15-20kg away from being a regular international or a more dominant player.

Billy is a class guy on and off the field, i dont know him but i have a feeling he could do very well as a professional coach if he decides down that route.

What strikes me is that he retired at the right time, where some players already mentioned here recently are probably involved one season to many.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119694955#Comment_119694955

Perhaps, but I’m not sure this logic makes sense?

showing that the decision not to retain cronin was not a monetary decision, as he wasnt offered a contract.

Just because they didn’t offer him a smaller contract doesn’t mean it wasn’t a monetary decision.

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119694990#Comment_119694990

It was totally a monetary situation. It was the end of the behind closed doors covid season and all the provinces had to make cuts. There were 2 senior loose heads with himself and Kilcoyne. Kilcoyne was a current international and had a year left on his contract. Cronin hadn't seen an Irish camp in a few years and was out of contract. It was a simple decision from a financial point of view. Especially when you had Loughman and Josh Wycherley coming up.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119694990#Comment_119694990

its completely logical to equate 'no contract offered' with a 'player culled from squad' and considered surplus to requirements.

its completely illogical to suggest that the coaches wanted to retain the player, but no offer at all was made to retain them, and then for that to be considered a monetary decision. in order to analysis something you need to measure it, and according to Cronin himself no measure was made of his worth, as no contract was offered. Hell, he even said himself that he would have taken a pay cut, so obviously no contract negotiations were made.

are you suggesting Munster wanted to retin him, but simply assumed they couldnt afford him so they decided to let him go as there was no point make him an offer? is that actually what you are suggesting?

Former Former Former

Didn't Munster subsequently offer Cronin a contract when Connacht wanted to do so? Or was that just a rumour?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119694941#Comment_119694941

I really don't think it is harsh. He always came across as a very decent guy, and I know he went through some horrible times in his private life, I'm not trying to do him down here. Unquestionably he brought some leadership and ethos to the team that was important. But purely as a player, was he at the level Munster needed him to be? No.

He was undersized and lacked power. He didn't have the athleticism to justify his lack of height and weight, wasn't seen as a big hitter or enforcer type, wasn't known as a meaningful ball carrier, no real jackal threat, not deemed a great set piece forward either. He was okay at most of these things but elite at none of them.

This is the point I'm making in the initial post on this - he wasn't the standard required to win trophies.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119695006#Comment_119695006

??

but thats not a monetary decision, thats a squad development decision

what you have described is quite literally the definition of "surplus to requirements"

'we do not need this 2nd string loosehead as we have a comparable 3rd string in Loughman and a promising up and coming in Wycherley'

Its not a case that Munster couldnt afford Cronin, its a case that they considered that they didnt need him.

im mean, we have a perfect example of a monastery decision in Ryan moving and Archer retained.

there is absolutely no way you can possibly think that the reason Ryan and Cronin moved on are the same.

phog

Another game where we don't score in the second half but thankfully we won this one. I was very happy with some aspects of the game but my god when we were poor we were brutal. After Carbery came on I thought this is it, BP win here and he started great but then he just fired balls out and they landing on the ground, you won't win many games like that. Aside from POM knock-on and his reaction afterwards I though he had a horse of a game, he destroyed Zebre's lineout.

I thought both Philips and Campbell showed up well and should get more game-time as will Edogbo and Quinn.

October could be a bad month for us, we have Connacht and Leinster away and Bulls in Thomond Park, errors like we've seen in the first 3 games will really cost us against those teams.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119695028#Comment_119695028

They matched Connacht’s offer, as far as I recall.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119695037#Comment_119695037

but thats not a monetary decision, thats a squad development decision

You seem to be suggesting that these decisions happen independently. They don’t. It was both a monetary decision AND a development decision based on the other resources they had at LH, and the pay they were on.

It’s entirely reasonably to suggest that Cronin would’ve commanded more than either Wycherley or Loughman, even after a pay cut.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119695015#Comment_119695015

are you suggesting Munster wanted to retin him, but simply assumed they couldnt afford him so they decided to let him go as there was no point make him an offer? is that actually what you are suggesting?

I’m suggesting that Munster may have wanted to retain him, but given he would likely commanded more than Wycherley and Loughman, and their age profiles, opted not to.

It’s ridiculous to suggest a senior player not retained post-Covid had no monetary aspect to it tbh.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119695083#Comment_119695083

im not suggesting these decision happen outside of the reality of a squad budget etc. All decisions have to be based on the reality of a limited budget, no one is suggesting otherwise.

It’s entirely reasonably to suggest that Cronin would’ve commanded more than either Wycherley or Loughman, even after a pay cut.

so again, are you saying munster assumed they couldnt afford cronin, therefore made no attempt to negotiate with him and offered him no contract, while at the same time actually wanting to retain him as a player. If thats what youre actually suggesting then id highly question the protocols those making these decisions are employing.

personally i think its highly more reasonable to suggest that Munster looked at their loosehead depth, and in the context of a declining budget, simply decided to cut cronin and put their resources into loughman and Wycherley.

as an aside, im not saying it was an incorrect decision, in fact i think it was the right decision regardless of how Cronins getting on at Leicester. I just think its disingenuous to call it anything more than what it was. He was cut from the squad with no contract offer.

Henry Ford III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119695068#Comment_119695068

IRFU control all this stuff. Provinces can't do a thing without Nucifora's approval.

It's micro managed.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119695110#Comment_119695110

Your moving the goalposts, Syd:

…and in the context of a declining budget, simply decided to cut cronin and put their resources into loughman and Wycherley.

This is pretty much the definition of a monetary decision.

And I’m not at all saying the following:

are you saying munster assumed they couldnt afford cronin, therefore made no attempt to negotiate with him and offered him no contract

Not being offered a contract does not imply no attempt to negotiate. In fact, the Cronin quote you posted above suggests they did negotiate. It suggests Munster couldn’t match the paycut Cronin was willing to accept.

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119695032#Comment_119695032

Billy was an elite lineout operator.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119695133#Comment_119695133

You're free to take whoever you like, but if you keep taking players who have lots of heart and not enough ability, you shouldn't be surprised if you have another trophy-less decade.

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119695037#Comment_119695037

there is absolutely no way you can possibly think that the reason Ryan and Cronin moved on are the same.

What? Both were out of contract. Neither was offered a contract. One senior prop was kept with two up and coming props getting more game time. It's exactly the same situation.

Munster have a limited budget and a huge debt. It makes financial sense to move on older players on larger salaries to make way for cheaper up and coming players.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119695178#Comment_119695178

No, he wasn't. A good lineout operator, yeah sure. Elite? No.

He had a solid career, but Munster were better at the beginning of his career when they had better options ahead of him (Paul O'Connell, Donncha O'Callaghan, Donncha Ryan) and Munster then consistently tried themselves to upgrade to better than Holland, with guys like Grobler, Snyman, Kleyn etc. A decent player but not a difference maker.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119695032#Comment_119695032

Whatever about the rest of the post this:

not deemed a great set piece forward either.

is absolutely inaccurate.

And on this:

This is the point I'm making in the initial post on this - he wasn't the standard required to win trophies.

I’m agreeing with you with regards the starting 15. But you absolutely need quality squad guys around to win trophies. Billy Holland is absolutely of that ilk.

It’s akin to someone like Michael Bent at Leinster.