Munster Team Talk Thread - Snymans are(n't) Forever

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120013630#Comment_120013630

Yeah, I guess on second viewing he is fortunate that the guy doesn't land on his head and therefore a yellow.

It is a strange scenario where the outcome is influencing the punishment more than the offending player's actions.

You've scenarios where players are genuinely looking at the ball or attempting to compete, and they take out the opposition player and the guy lands on his head and it's a red, or situations like this where a player just tackles a guy in the air, which is blatant foul play, but gets off with a yellow because (thankfully) the outcome wasn't as bad as it could have been.

aloooof

Ya, it's one aspect of that law I've never really liked, tbh. If part of the disciplinary process is to disincentivise illegal actions of varying degrees, this approach seems far from perfect in that regard.

theVersatile

https://twitter.com/OptaJonny/status/1604799346393993216?t=-uZ-pPbrJWeU3dFRwY4GrA&s=19

Twenty-five tackles from Coombes, alongside his two tries and other strong carries. Breakdown work and a touch of lock scrummaging to boot

Immense.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120013883#Comment_120013883

He was MOTM for me. I think we're nearly becoming immune to his try-scoring exploits at this point, but he put in a serious shift beyond that as well.

Beirne continues his excellent form tho, and seems to have assumed the mantle for CJ Stander's MOTM Award.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120013883#Comment_120013883

He needed a game like that, hopefully he'll continue it now.

Immense is a very accurate description of his game yesterday

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120013630#Comment_120013630

Serious pearl clutching with some of the responses to the scrap.

If the Northampton player is getting a yellow for his clearout Earls should be getting a similar punishment having himself only ended up on the pile by coming at pace and tackling a Northampton player on top of the guys on the ground.

I understand it all happened in quick succession but a lot of the other stuff happens pretty frequently in games and rarely gets picked up, forget about red carded.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120014550#Comment_120014550

Earls (and Haley) didn't launch themselves into it to anywhere near the same degree as Proctor did; they're not really comparable.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120014550#Comment_120014550

I didn't think the clearout was a red; probably a yellow in my opinion. A number of players arrived and launched themselves into it, but Proctor's was the most noticeable for the force and the absolute disregard for players around him.

Haley's was positively polite, in that he literally just comes in and clears the guys (one of whom has his hands in his teammate's face, and the other a forearm across his teammates throat). If Haley had come in kicking I wouldn't have had a problem with it tbh.

The two actions that I said were red card worthy both happen at the beginning of the incident, before it becomes a full blown melee; it's Ludlam's hands in Ryan's face (on a number of occasions) and Ribbans pushing Ryan into the ground with a forearm across his throat. Neither of these things happen multiple times a game and these were , in addition to being dangerous foul play, the incidents that sparked the whole thing.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120014565#Comment_120014565

Never mentioned Haley, that was completely different.

Strongly disagree on Earls, he tackled a player at pace who was moving towards the pile right on top of it, with no idea the situation below.

That is far more reckless than a direct pretty clean clearout of a single player at a faster pace - in this situation the player Earls tackles actually looks like he smacked his head off one of those in the pile and it could have been worse.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120014648#Comment_120014648

You're talking about "tackles" and "clearouts" as if this happened in normal phase play; it didn't.

Proctor's was by far the most forceful and reckless entry to the whole thing.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120014641#Comment_120014641

Not sure why people keep bringing Haley up, I never mentioned him. Have responded why Earls showed more disregard if you're claiming the other clearout should be a yellow (or some have said a red).

Holding someone down with a forearms around the upper chest area happens regularly in games and you rarely see them called even for a penalty, forget about a red. I haven't seen an angle that shows it was directly on the throat for a sustained period - which I agree would be a red.

Hate to tell you but hands do go near players faces during games. Ryan was holding him and he was trying to push himself off. Stupid and could be seen as a red if the officials wanted to go that way but it isn't some massive miss. As pointed out, I didn't see Ryan or one Munster player call for it - they are quick to shout for a lot of things so I'd take it from them that it wasn't as clear and obvious as some are claiming.

As for sparking the whole situation, Ryan was the one who escalated things by firing himself into the middle of handbags with JOD. He could have got on with the game or tried to pull one of the players off JOD, not smash straight into them.

OldRio

I must have watched a different incident.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120014690#Comment_120014690

Forceful doesn't equal reckless.

I'm using rugby terms because it was on a rugby pitch and they are the easiest and clearest terms to use, generally rugby actions in those scraps are treated differently than actions not allowed in the game - like kicking or punching. If you'd rather, I can switch to your original term and very technical term of 'storm'.

Proctor 'stormed' Earls onto the grass while Earls 'stormed' the unsuspecting Northampton player into a pile of prone and unsuspecting players. It is far less dangerous and reckless to knock someone onto grass than knocking them onto a pile of bodies on the ground.

Not saying either deserve a yellow, just pointing out the inconsistency.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120014732#Comment_120014732

Hate to tell you but hands do go near players faces during games. 

They do, and every time it happens, that player risks a card. And rightly so.

Ryan was the one who escalated things by firing himself into the middle of handbags with JOD

So Ryan "fired " himself into things, but Proctor's entry was fine? I think you have this exactly backwards tbh...

Brief_Lives

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120013536#Comment_120013536

You could probably just watch the first half. the second half was a joke and the ref lost control.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120014835#Comment_120014835

Forceful doesn't equal reckless.

It doesn't; but this was both forceful and reckless.

It's rare that pretty much everyone universally thinks the ref got this wrong and there should have been more cards. Your the first person I've heard suggesting otherwise tbh.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120014732#Comment_120014732

Here are two specific stills of very clear foul play from Ribbans and Ludlam, the two who I think should have gotten red cards. You cannot say this behaviour is fine and acceptable.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120014837#Comment_120014837

I said that he risked a red card where his hands went.

I never said Proctor's entry was fine, I said that Earls' was as bad, if not worse than his. To me neither deserve a yellow but if you're going to claim a yellow for one they should both be

Keep building those strawmen though

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120014882#Comment_120014882

Munster players seem to disagree with 'everyone universally' when it comes to some of the thoughts on the cards here

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120014924#Comment_120014924

Not saying it is fine or acceptable, what I'm saying is that you'll find dozens of stills in every game that look this bad.

If you had a player in a maul doing what Ribbans is it would be a penalty, yet you're claiming it is a clear red. It looks worse in the video because Ryan is holding on to the other player. In basically every one of these hand bag situations you end up with lads with their arms at necks or around necks dragging players out.

I'm always against 'the game is gone soft' lobby but claiming there is two reds (maybe three) plus yellow(s) for this on the Northampton side is utter soft nonsense where you'd hate Munster to be reffed to that standard.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120014993#Comment_120014993

What exactly is your evidence for this? The replays of the incident meant we didn't see any of the players interaction with the ref after it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120015044#Comment_120015044

Not saying it is fine or acceptable, what I'm saying is that you'll find dozens of stills in every game that look this bad.

This is the point then on which I don't think we're going to agree.

You see plenty of 'handbags' style scraps in some games, and usually there's nothing to it, like a lot of this one wasn't. I don't think the actions of those two players though is in that category.

I'm always against 'the game is gone soft' lobby but claiming there is two reds (maybe three) plus yellow(s) for this on the Northampton side is utter soft nonsense where you'd hate Munster to be reffed to that standard

I don't know where this is coming from, and it's certainly the first time on this thread where I've been accused of being a Munster fan. I'm a Leinster fan, and tbh I'm commenting on this scrap they same way I'd comment on a scrap from any game.

Comparing it to mauls etc isn't the same. There is none of the force involved in those scenarios compared to the force with which Ribbans throws Ryan down and his actions are totally unacceptable.

I don't think it makes the game soft to say you can't get away with just blatant thuggery like that on a pitch.

Watch the full clip again and watch Ribbans' involvement from start to finish. He and Ludlam were 100% the instigators of the thing, and were 100% the ones who's aggression when way beyond acceptable.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120015052#Comment_120015052

We would have heard it on the ref mic, like we hear many other times they call the ref's attention to issues throughout the game, especially at stoppages when issues like gouging can be flagged by the captain.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120015092#Comment_120015092

Have you actually watched the full clip if you're claiming Ribban's was an instigator?

Neither Ryan nor Ribban's were involved initially, Ryan inserts himself quite literally into the middle of the handbags that were going on with JOD (where JOD runs out of it laughing given what a nothing situation it was), Ryan's actions escalates things and then Ribbans joins to grab Ryan to drag him out and things go from there.

Let's not just make things up.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120014743#Comment_120014743

We all did but wums wum for a reason

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120015120#Comment_120015120

Yeah, Ribbans is the one who escalates it from a bit of pushing and shoving to something much more. Ryan doesn't do anything more than pushing at the two guys (the number 8 Juarno Augustus and Lewis Ludlam) who are holding JOD, it's Ribbans and then Ludlam who take the aggression up a notch.

Look, I genuinely don't care about this at all. In my initial post commenting on this, you might have noticed I also said I thought the Casey incident was a stonewall PT (something I haven't seen a single Munster fan on here disagree with), and as I said, I'm not speaking here from a biased Munster perspective.

I don't think we agree on this incident, so I'm happy to just move on from it.

aloooof

Anyone with any thoughts on the 15 v Leinster?

I'm presuming we'll see Beirne and POM rested, and McDonald starting, so possibly 4. Kleyn 5. McDonald 6. JOD 7. Hodnett and 8. Coombes for the back 5 in the pack. I'd be happy enough with that I think.

12 is gonna be an interesting one.

Should be a pretty spicy one.

Neil3030

What's lost in the still images is the fact that only Ryan and the 7 go to ground initially. The 5 has a moment to look down and see Ryan already pinned to the ground by his teammate, before proceeding to dive down on him, leading with a forearm to Ryan's "upper chest area", or to use the more commonly applied anatomical terminology, his "neck". This is what escalates the action to red card status for me; had all three players gone down simultaneously, and those same images emerged, there might be some mitigation.

Also, to the posters that apparently have an open channel of communication with John Ryan, to the extent that they'd know if he did or did not complain about this incident, could they do me a favour and congratulate him on an excellent performance yesterday.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120015238#Comment_120015238

Also, to the posters that apparently have an open channel of communication with John Ryan, to the extent that they'd know if he did or did not complain about this incident, could they do me a favour and congratulate him on an excellent performance yesterday.

Brilliant 😂😂😂

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120015228#Comment_120015228

If we can only use the internationals in 7 of the 9 then yes I think both will miss the two IRC games.

I think the likes of Murray, Casey & Crowley would be exempt from that rule as they didn't play to much rugby during the recent AIs