Munster Team Talk Thread - Snymans are(n't) Forever

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119996470#Comment_119996470

The criticism of their finances is precisely because they mismanage situations like this - they've ended bringing the guy back for a chunk of the season anyway, they've just done it in a way where they won't have him when they really need him.

You're ignoring the point that it wasn't simply a binary decision between paying John Ryan more money or not.

So despite all your criticisms of Munsters finances, you think they should've just handed out the higher contract anyways? You don't see the contradiction??

I'm saying, maybe they should consider allocating resources towards cornerstone positions like THP rather than signing expensive Southern Hemisphere backs.

But I do think you get into the weeds with Munster in a way you don't with your own club.

Don't think this is a fair comment - I'm plenty prepared to criticise Leinster for what I consider to be bad decisions or poor administration, but I don't think it's an outlandish statement that, notwithstanding some of the structural advantages Leinster have, that they've also been the best run of the 4 provinces by a distance over the past decade plus.

Anyway, we're just going around in circles here as usual.

phog

Jaysus lads, give it a rest.

The ONLY reason Ryan is back is for INJURY COVER. There are times when a club needs injury cover, it's seldom if ever budgeted for but it is required.

Now, trying to use one tiny piece of information and then a few assumptions you can come to any conclusion you want to make out that you and you alone are correct is a pointless discussion and I really don't see why people are giving it oxygen.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119996520#Comment_119996520

There's an obvious difference between signing a guy on a contract and signing a guy as emergency cover.

And by all accounts it wasn't just more money; it was more money over a longer period (the reports at the time were that Ryan wanted 2 years, but Archer wanted 1).

I'm saying, maybe they should consider allocating resources towards cornerstone positions like THP rather than signing expensive Southern Hemisphere backs.

Exactly; you're saying it after the fact. (And you've no idea what happened behind the scenes here either).

Don't think this is a fair comment - I'm plenty prepared to criticise Leinster for what I consider to be bad decisions or poor administration,

As good as Leinster have been, I doubt they've been perfect. What would you say Leinster have bungled over the last while?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119996574#Comment_119996574

As good as Leinster have been, I doubt they've been perfect. What would you say Leinster have bungled over the last while?

Not strictly relevant to this thread, but the two big ones that spring to mind for me are the amount of money spent on the Donnybrook redevelopment only to have outgrown it even before completion, and then the Matt O'Connor hire. I know he'd had some success with Leicester, but stylistically he was never a fit for Leinster, and obviously it didn't work out (despite him giving some debuts to guys who would go on to become cornerstone players).

Leinster have also had our fair share of expensive flop-like signings over the years, with guys like Kane Douglas and Steven Sykes probably the worst two who spring to mind, but guys like Lote Tuqiri and CJ van der Linde (more injury reasons) would also probably count. There were also a slew of poor quality imports in the 2000s who weren't good enough, and just served to block more talented youngsters coming through.

Exactly; you're saying it after the fact. (And you've no idea what happened behind the scenes here either).

During the window when the opted not to extend John Ryan they resigned a whole host of players, and in roughly the same time period, they attempted unsuccessfully to resign DDA and did sign Fekitoa.

I have a feeling if I read back over the 500 pages of this thread, I'd see that Munster fans agree the front row has been a problem area for Munster probably since the days of BJ Botha, yet they have prioritised some expensive NIQ signings in other areas, especially the centre (where by my reckoning Munster has consistently had at least 1 NIQ player in every season going back to around the 2004/05 season).

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119996671#Comment_119996671

Great, and how much of that have you posted in the Leinster thread?? ;) Anyways, lets leave it there, FTD, for the sake of the thread.

Unless you want to discuss which NIQ props might be available post-RWC. That could be an interesting topic for discussion; I think we've the fewest number of NIQ players at the moment so there could well be room for one.

CIARAN_BOYLE

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119997210#Comment_119997210

Its worth noting that Munster had a fully IQ 23 at the weekend.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119997246#Comment_119997246

interesting to note too though that 6 of the starting team didn't come through the munster system with another 2 on the bench, that's alot in my opinion

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119997503#Comment_119997503

Its not really and it isnt an issue.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119997537#Comment_119997537

I think you're agreeing with each other

edit: maybe not then..

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119997537#Comment_119997537

oh thats great thanks for the clarification

you may not find it interesting, but i do think its something to be noted that despite everyone being irish qualified (which is great), a third of both the starting team and the squad overall didnt come through the munster system, thats alot. does it matter in the short team - no. if its an ongoing trend i dont think its a particularly good thing at all

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119997660#Comment_119997660

It doesnt matter though and being irish qualified is more important. The number of players to come through the home system is still far greater than most teams in Europe and the academy is getting better and doing more in recent years especially now with cozzy in charge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119997210#Comment_119997210

Unless you want to discuss which NIQ props might be available post-RWC. That could be an interesting topic for discussion; I think we've the fewest number of NIQ players at the moment so there could well be room for one.

Well, thinking on this, I was looking at the likely candidates, assuming they come from the big 3 SH nations.

I think potential ABs available: George Bower (he'll be 31, and out of contract I think, more typically a LH but supposedly comfortable on both sides of the scrum) and possibly Tyrel Lomax (contract up at end 2023).

Springboks: Frans Malherbe or possibly another bite at Thomas du Toit?

Aussies: Alan Ala'alatoa (Big Mike's brother), contract up in 2023, Tom Robertson (seems to be on 1 year deals).

but the one I'd put money on given some Munster links through his cousin Casey is Nepo Laulala. Right age profile. Contract up at the end of 2023.

I think the impact of South African provinces in the URC & Europe might make some of them more willing to stay at home than perhaps past post RWC cycles (as there seems to be a bit more cash in SA rugby, but could be wrong).

Neil3030

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119997503#Comment_119997503

Would it be as interesting as the fact that 5 of Leinster's starting team didn't come through their academy?

Or that, adjusting homegrown starters by population (9/1.3m vs 10/2.8m), the Munster academy is more than twice as efficient as Leinster's?

Burkie1203

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119998512#Comment_119998512

Yeah the trophies won In the last 10 years really reflect that efficiency

Burkie1203

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119996470#Comment_119996470

They should be more prudent with who they sign and in what position

Front row has been an issue for a decade and the best front rower at the club, a THP, was let go to retain a bang average player while money was being spent elsewhere (2 centres in particular)

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119998631#Comment_119998631

More prudent by offering a longer contract on likely higher terms? How does that work exactly?

And on the one hand you're saying THP has been a problem position for a decade, but also advocating us re-signing a guy who's been here for that decade. THe 1 year contract for Archer, and letting Ryan go was the first steps away from that.

My take is that their preference was to offer Archer a lower, 1 year contract to 1) see how Salanoa and Knox go with more gametime this season and 2) have the option of signing a TH post-RWC. Signing Ryan on a 2 year deal meant that wouldn't have been possible. I think that's pretty reasonable.

And in any case, haven't you also been saying for years that midfield is a problem position that means Munster don't get the best out of their back 3? Yet you're bringing up "money being spent elsewhere 2 centres in particular" to have a go at Munster here?

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119998617#Comment_119998617

Do you ever have anything positive to say about Munster on the Munster thread, Burkie? Cos I don't really see what this is adding.

Burkie1203

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119998730#Comment_119998730

I never said THP was a problem for a decade. Very selective reading there pal.

And when I spoke about being prudent, I mean in terms of the overall squad. Surely there was room to manoeuvre within the squad when there is a raft of contracts being negotiated to keep the best front rower, in a key position, over a bang average alternative and two very unproven rookies. Surely trying to keep Ryan for two years to give Salanoa and Knox more development time would be better?

If the money is not there to keep Ryan, where will the money come from to sign a NIQ THP post RWC?

No money to keep Ryan over Archer but somehow money will materialise in two years time to sign a marquee THP?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119998512#Comment_119998512

Well what it does show is the folly of just using one match day XV as the basis for this example.

Overall, of the Leinster first team squad, only 5 players were either born or raised (educated) outside of the province, so that's 10.6% of the first team squad. If you include the academy, there is one additional external player (John McKee), but of the full first team and academy squad of 65 players. 9.2% are from Leinster.

In the Munster first team squad, 16 players of the first team squad of 48 are externals (32.7%), or if you stretch it to the full academy squad and first team squad of 62 players it's 17 players (27.4%).

Even allowing for the population disparities, I think it's clear which team has more indigenous talent in the squad.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119998813#Comment_119998813

I never said THP was a problem for a decade. Very selective reading there pal.

Fine. So front-row has been a problem for a decade, of which JR was part of it for that decade. A decade you're all too happy to point out Munster won nothing. Archer's 1 year deal allows them to start the process of moving away from that in the new coaches first year. (I don't expect Archer's deal to be extended further).

But it's pretty funny we've gone full circle from the "Munster don't back youth" to "Munster should be retaining their older players".

(P.S. I'm not your pal)

awec

@Burkie1203 threadbanned for 2 weeks. Post before that and it'll be a forum ban. Leinster fans can you please resist the urge to troll this thread.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119998879#Comment_119998879

The problem here is you're trying to have a discussion with one or two posters who don't want a discussion they just want to point out failings, even if they have to make assumptions for those failing to be some where near being correct in their mind.

You can't win here, that's just their MO.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119998864#Comment_119998864

I think it's also clear which team should have more homegrown talent, given the resources at their disposal. But Munster are certainly going in the right direction in that regard too.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119998896#Comment_119998896

Ya, you're right tbh phog, I need to stop engaging.

The match thread after the Stephen's Day game is gonna be a mess...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119998901#Comment_119998901

Yeah, that's fair.

I've said it before, but I think Munster are in the strongest place they've been in at least 7/8 years. In the second row and back row in particular they have loads of good, homegrown talent, and in Casey & Crowley could have their halfbacks for the next 10 years.

But, it's not an accurate comment or reflection either to imply that Leinster's production of homegrown talent isn't exceptional.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119999031#Comment_119999031

I avoid dipping into those particular match threads - too many not so subtle trolls.

Back to Munster - I see they trained in Thomond Park yesterday, probably out of necessity as UL wouldn't have covered their pitches but also means Munster must have continued to cover Thomond after our game there on Sunday.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119999090#Comment_119999090

Hopefully at least the 4 points against Northampton anyways (hopefully their result against La Rochelle means they're not too interested in Europe this year).

Really excited to see Earls in the new attack tho; think he's tailor made for it. I can see him scoring (or setting up) a beaut before the end of the season.

Jump_In_Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119999124#Comment_119999124

I would expect Northampton to be up for this match, as for them having a home match against Munster would surely be a big draw for their fans.

Regardless of what they plan to do for the rest of the pool stage, I think they’ll be up for this one.

If they beat Munster they have La Rochelle at home in Northampton as well to come, so if they were still alive in the tournament by then it could mean a lot more fans supporting them, and chance to progress to the round of 16, 8 out of 12 will progress so nothing lost at this point yet.

Jump_In_Jack

Just browsing the fixtures ahead for Munster, and the two that stick out to me are the Ulster and Benetton matches.

I could see Munster putting out a second string side against Ulster away as there are two must-win home fixtures only 6 days before against Leinster and 5 days after against Lions.

The Benetton away match is going to be vital, with only a 6-day turnaround and after a pretty heavy set of matches.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119999495#Comment_119999495

Ya, plus you'd have to think so many teams qualify that any home win goes a long way towards getting thru. A few bonus points picked up elsewhere could be enough to see you through, so can't see any teams throwing in the towel at this point anyways.