Moving Socket in wall

Renovating9999

I have a double socket in what sounds like a blockwork internal wall. I want to move the socket a few inches to the right so that it can beg hidden in a new unit I'm putting in. Is it a big or messy job for an electrician to do this in a solid wall?
Thanks very much

Flyingsnowball

Messy ? Yes
Expensive? Depends what you can do yourself.

Can you chase out the new run yourself? Pull the wire out of the old run and put it in the new run then patch it up?

If so you probably don’t even need an electrician.

Rows Grower

Renovating9999 wrote: »

I have a double socket in what sounds like a blockwork internal wall. I want to move the socket a few inches to the right so that it can beg hidden in a new unit I'm putting in. Is it a big or messy job for an electrician to do this in a solid wall?
Thanks very much

It's not a big deal to do but it will be a bit messy/dusty etc.

Probably a job for a handyman more than an electrician as you will need a bit of plastering done too and I can't imagine any electricians wanting to do that.

They can't even use a sweeping brush, never mind a trowel.

DublinDilbert

It depends how/where the feed cable is coming from, there might be very little slack or there might be plenty. If it only needs to move a few inches, you could possibly change the double for a single, fit a new backing box and fill in the wall.

w211

If you have a modern house, you can use the EU mounting style wall sockets what does not need a big junction box. If your electricity are installed English style, be f.. careful. I really do not understand why they allow to install the wall sockets without the dedicated fuses. In EU they do not need these beefy junction boxes behind the wall sockets.

lgk

w211 wrote: »

I really do not understand why they allow to install the wall sockets without the dedicated fuses.

A dedicated fuse in each socket would need to be rated to the maximum load, having the fuse in the plug means it can be rated appropriately to the appliance it's connected to.

w211

lgk wrote: »

A dedicated fuse in each socket would need to be rated to the maximum load, having the fuse in the plug means it can be rated appropriately to the appliance it's connected to.

This is way dangerous method and they still allows that BS on these days. On other countries (expect England) they install the dedicated fuses for each room sockets. Here all sockets are connected to single beefy fuse. This is very, very bad electricity connection. No safety at all!!! They try to compensate it by fuses on the power cord but it is too little too late. Damp rooms and bad electricity installation are the perfect for the disaster.

GreeBo

w211 wrote: »

This is way dangerous method and they still allows that BS on these days. On other countries (expect England) they install the dedicated fuses for each room sockets. Here all sockets are connected to single beefy fuse. This is very, very bad electricity connection. No safety at all!!! They try to compensate it by fuses on the power cord but it is too little too late. Damp rooms and bad electricity installation are the perfect for the disaster.

What fuse rating do you use on this dedicated fuse?
How do you know whats going to be plugged into it?

What about a 5am lamp into something that you have a 13amp dedicated fuse.

Whats going to melt first?

Effects

w211 wrote: »

This is way dangerous method and they still allows that BS on these days. On other countries (expect England) they install the dedicated fuses for each room sockets. Here all sockets are connected to single beefy fuse. This is very, very bad electricity connection. No safety at all!!! They try to compensate it by fuses on the power cord but it is too little too late. Damp rooms and bad electricity installation are the perfect for the disaster.

You sound like Yoda trying to explain electrical installations.

And why are you referring to English installations?

w211

Effects wrote: »

You sound like Yoda trying to explain electrical installations.

And why are you referring to English installations?

Because here is most installations as on England. All sockets get the power from single fuse and use single cable. Obviously this is dangerous and most of the Irish houses have that kind of installation. That is the only reason why the wall sockets needs the junction box. Nowhere on EU you can not see such a mess.

jhenno78

w211, I don't mean to be an a$$hole but I don't think you're getting your ideas across as well as you would like.

You have a point on some things and are under-informed on others. On the other hand, I don't think that we here are going to be familiar enough with European norms to be able to debate it properly either.

Are electrical systems in mainland Europe generally better than here? Yes, yes they are. Much better.
The curse of the ring main lives on and will continue to for a long time come. We decided to copy England in our wiring standard 80 years ago and we've been tied to it since. It's this that requires us to have fuses in our plugs. Changing to bring us up to Euro norms would be great (ie. only radial circuits) but we've got millions of homes that are wired the way they are.

Just changing to a schuko socket isn't an option (though I would much prefer it personally).

w211

After the war the world was different place and they did what the did to survive. I am sure our generation makes too mistakes what the next generations does not understand at all.

GreeBo

w211 wrote: »

Because here is most installations as on England. All sockets get the power from single fuse and use single cable. Obviously this is dangerous and most of the Irish houses have that kind of installation. That is the only reason why the wall sockets needs the junction box. Nowhere on EU you can not see such a mess.

That's incorrect as every plug on every appliance has it's own fuse dedicated and rated specifically for the appliance.

The ring main has it's own fuse/breaker at the board, this is to protect the main itself.

w211

GreeBo wrote: »

That's incorrect as every plug on every appliance has it's own fuse dedicated and rated specifically for the appliance.

The ring main has it's own fuse/breaker at the board, this is to protect the main itself.

EU mainland and English/Irish power installation are very different.
There is no big junction boxes behind the wall sockets and easy to move the socket from one place to other. Here you almost can not move to anywhere thanks for that junction box

GreeBo

w211 wrote: »

EU mainland and English/Irish power installation are very different.
There is no big junction boxes behind the wall sockets and easy to move the socket from one place to other. Here you almost can not move to anywhere thanks for that junction box

You can usually move it easily within reason, if not then you can move it wherever you want with a fused spur or by tying into the ring main somewhere else.

Effects

What big junction box? Are you talking about standard back boxes?



As opposed to something like this:

Effects

GreeBo wrote: »

or by tying into the ring main somewhere else.

Are ring mains still used? I was taught not to use them, and that was 15 years ago!

lgk

Effects wrote: »

What big junction box? Are you talking about standard back boxes?
<snip>

Exactly, the only alternative to back boxes are huge ugly sockets that protrude out quite a long way from the wall.

I've seen plenty of recessed sockets on the continent too. Even the one in Effect's image is designed to be partially recessed.

lgk

w211 wrote: »

This is very, very bad electricity connection. No safety at all!!! They try to compensate it by fuses on the power cord but it is too little too late. Damp rooms and bad electricity installation are the perfect for the disaster.

Why does a 16A breaker better offer better protection that a 3A fuse in an appliance plug? Why is it too late?

If you have damp rooms you may have bigger issues to deal with!!

jhenno78

Effects wrote: »

Are ring mains still used? I was taught not to use them, and that was 15 years ago!

More of a problem with the UK where they're even slower to adopt new things (RCDs for example).

Either way, a hell of a lot of houses in Ireland have them so we're tied to having standards that accommodate them.

jhenno78

lgk wrote: »

Exactly, the only alternative to back boxes are huge ugly sockets that protrude out quite a long way from the wall.

I've seen plenty of recessed sockets on the continent too. Even the one in Effect's image is designed to be partially recessed.

Seems that it is(/was?) a thing to just install sockets without any kind of box...not familiar enough to say for sure. Not sure how that works exactly. I wouldn't want to be without that protection but on the other hand their circuits have better protection so it wouldn't be as much of an issue.

Not sure it would make a huge difference to the difficulty of moving a socket though?

lgk wrote: »

Why does a 16A breaker better offer better protection that a 3A fuse in an appliance plug? Why is it too late?

Well, a circuit-breaker is a more reliable/faster device. Not all appliance cords are rated for use at 16A, but they're supposed to be able to be not melt/go on fire before a 16A switch trips. Here they'd get 32A before a trip so they'd definitely melt first.
So, overall I do see how it's better. You've got all the protection you need happening in the consumer unit.

GreeBo

jhenno78 wrote: »

Well, a circuit-breaker is a more reliable/faster device. Not all appliance cords are rated for use at 16A, but they're supposed to be able to be not melt/go on fire before a 16A switch trips. Here they'd get 32A before a trip so they'd definitely melt first.
So, overall I do see how it's better. You've got all the protection you need happening in the consumer unit.

But you are reliant on every single appliance in your home having a rating of higher, often significantly, than the appliance would be individually fused for?

Wouldnt that also mean that you would have specific sockets for specific applicances? (Im thiking portable electric heaters as an example)
You coudlnt just plug it into any socket, you'd need one that was rated for the appliance?

jhenno78

GreeBo wrote: »

But you are reliant on every single appliance in your home having a rating of higher, often significantly, than the appliance would be individually fused for?

What I'm saying is that AFAIK this is already the case. That the appliance standards are written in such a way that they have a "normal use" rating of eg. 5A but must also be able to tolerate a load up to 16A without being a fire-hazard.

GreeBo wrote: »

Wouldnt that also mean that you would have specific sockets for specific applicances? (Im thiking portable electric heaters as an example)
You coudlnt just plug it into any socket, you'd need one that was rated for the appliance?

Not sure I get where you're coming from here? All plugs/sockets/circuits (in Germany for example) are rated for 16A*.

GreeBo

jhenno78 wrote: »

What I'm saying is that AFAIK this is already the case. That the appliance standards are written in such a way that they have a "normal use" rating of eg. 5A but must also be able to tolerate a load up to 16A without being a fire-hazard.

As long as you buy something that adheres to the standard, is it european standard or wider?

Not sure I get where you're coming from here? All plugs/sockets/circuits (in Germany for example) are rated for 16A*.

Sorry yeah I wasnt very clear.

If you have an appliance thats over 16A what do you do with it?
Its kinda the opposite of the lighting circuit sockets.

lgk

GreeBo wrote: »

If you have an appliance thats over 16A what do you do with it?

They'd need to be wired with one of these

jhenno78

GreeBo wrote: »

As long as you buy something that adheres to the standard, is it european standard or wider?

AFAIK it's normal in Europe, and would apply here but is irrelevant because we need appliances to be able to deal with 32A circuits. Something I read somewhere... I don't think I'm going to spend the morning looking to find it for certain, but it's my understanding of the question of "why don't mainland Europe need to put fuses in their plugs".

GreeBo wrote: »

Sorry yeah I wasnt very clear.

If you have an appliance thats over 16A what do you do with it?
Its kinda the opposite of the lighting circuit sockets.

Wire it on a separate circuit - same as you would here with high-draw appliances like an oven (except that a lot of the time they'd be 3-phase). An electric heater here would be max 13A so wouldn't be a problem.

I think they generally use a lot more circuits. Here you might have all the sockets in a house on 2 rings, but AFAIK the norm there would be 1 radial circuit/breaker(possibly rcbo?) to a room, including lights - so you don't have so much risk as you'd expect of an over-current trip from normal use. Heaters is an interesting one, they were a lot quicker in adopting central heating too (and insulation) so even back then when this was all being worked out for the first time they wouldn't have worried too much about people plugging in heaters, and there isn't much else that's that high-current.

GreeBo

jhenno78 wrote: »

AFAIK it's normal in Europe, and would apply here but is irrelevant because we need appliances to be able to deal with 32A circuits. Something I read somewhere... I don't think I'm going to spend the morning looking to find it for certain, but it's my understanding of the question of "why don't mainland Europe need to put fuses in their plugs".

another brexit disaster looms!

Wire it on a separate circuit - same as you would here with high-draw appliances like an oven (except that a lot of the time they'd be 3-phase). An electric heater here would be max 13A so wouldn't be a problem.

I think they generally use a lot more circuits. Here you might have all the sockets in a house on 2 rings, but AFAIK the norm there would be 1 radial circuit/breaker(possibly rcbo?) to a room, including lights - so you don't have so much risk as you'd expect of an over-current trip from normal use. Heaters is an interesting one, they were a lot quicker in adopting central heating too (and insulation) so even back then when this was all being worked out for the first time they wouldn't have worried too much about people plugging in heaters, and there isn't much else that's that high-current.

Yeah it was specifically mobile heaters that would you wouldnt wire directly, but looks like anything over 16A (or even 16A ) would have different plug/socket anyway, like the lighting circuit I mentioned earlier.

jhenno78

GreeBo wrote: »

brexit disaster looms!

Why yes it does! Not in this bit though? That standard would be something that's in excess of our needs because we have the protection elsewhere, so if it isn't met then it won't matter? But yeah, regulatory alignment with us being in such a small market could be a problem - likely that most stuff just gets made to EU standards anyway, so might not be so bad.

GreeBo wrote: »

Yeah it was specifically mobile heaters that would you wouldnt wire directly, but looks like anything over 16A (or even 16A ) would have different plug/socket anyway, like the lighting circuit I mentioned earlier.

...here nothing over 13A has a plug/socket (in a house). Still not sure I'm on your page on this one. Where do lighting circuits come into it?

GreeBo

jhenno78 wrote: »

Why yes it does! Not in this bit though? That standard would be something that's in excess of our needs because we have the protection elsewhere, so if it isn't met then it won't matter? But yeah, regulatory alignment with us being in such a small market could be a problem - likely that most stuff just gets made to EU standards anyway, so might not be so bad.

Fine for us, but Im thinking that the UK wont need to keep up an EU standard and so anyone buying UK stuff in the EU will need to take care.

...here nothing over 13A has a plug/socket (in a house). Still not sure I'm on your page on this one. Where do lighting circuits come into it?

Sorry, I meant 5A sockets that are connected to the lighting circuit.

jhenno78

GreeBo wrote: »

Fine for us, but Im thinking that the UK wont need to keep up an EU standard and so anyone buying UK stuff in the EU will need to take care.

Not the other way round?

GreeBo wrote: »

Sorry, I meant 5A sockets that are connected to the lighting circuit.

Oh yeah, the type-d ones forgot about that.

GreeBo

jhenno78 wrote: »

Not the other way round?

Presume anything they import they will stick a fuse into the plug anyway so no issues to them .

But if someone in France buys a UK appliance that is not rated to take 16A as it expects to have a 13A fuse in the plug....

jhenno78

GreeBo wrote: »

Presume anything they import they will stick a fuse into the plug anyway so no issues to them .

But if someone in France buys a UK appliance that is not rated to take 16A as it expects to have a 13A fuse in the plug....

Yeah sorry, I took you up wrong.

lgk

jhenno78 wrote: »

Not sure it would make a huge difference to the difficulty of moving a socket though?

Should make no difference whatsoever. Many of the Euro CEE 7/3 sockets need to be recessed deeper than the Irish/UK ones due to the earth connections running along the side of the plug behind the pins (~40mm combined depth rather than ~25mm earth pin depth here) unless you want big ugly sockets protruding into the room. You see surface patress boxes used here as well, mainly for cheap re-wire jobs, but they are ugly and best avoided.

jhenno78

lgk wrote: »

Should make no difference whatsoever.

I guess you could argue that moving a socket on a radial circuit could be easier than a ring - you only have to worry about the length of one set of wires...but yeah, I don't see it either.

GreeBo

jhenno78 wrote: »

I guess you could argue that moving a socket on a radial circuit could be easier than a ring - you only have to worry about the length of one set of wires...but yeah, I don't see it either.

It would be easier in the scenario where you dont have enough slack and you need to make a connection and a new break in the ring I guess. You also wouldnt need to have a blanked out box where you made the connection (rather than just bury it in the wall :eek:)

Muahahaha

I think the OP got more than they bargained for in starting this thread about moving a socket a few inches :pac: