Renovating9999 wrote: » I have a double socket in what sounds like a blockwork internal wall. I want to move the socket a few inches to the right so that it can beg hidden in a new unit I'm putting in. Is it a big or messy job for an electrician to do this in a solid wall? Thanks very much
w211 wrote: » I really do not understand why they allow to install the wall sockets without the dedicated fuses.
lgk wrote: » A dedicated fuse in each socket would need to be rated to the maximum load, having the fuse in the plug means it can be rated appropriately to the appliance it's connected to.
w211 wrote: » This is way dangerous method and they still allows that BS on these days. On other countries (expect England) they install the dedicated fuses for each room sockets. Here all sockets are connected to single beefy fuse. This is very, very bad electricity connection. No safety at all!!! They try to compensate it by fuses on the power cord but it is too little too late. Damp rooms and bad electricity installation are the perfect for the disaster.
Effects wrote: » You sound like Yoda trying to explain electrical installations. And why are you referring to English installations?
w211 wrote: » Because here is most installations as on England. All sockets get the power from single fuse and use single cable. Obviously this is dangerous and most of the Irish houses have that kind of installation. That is the only reason why the wall sockets needs the junction box. Nowhere on EU you can not see such a mess.
GreeBo wrote: » That's incorrect as every plug on every appliance has it's own fuse dedicated and rated specifically for the appliance. The ring main has it's own fuse/breaker at the board, this is to protect the main itself.
w211 wrote: » EU mainland and English/Irish power installation are very different. There is no big junction boxes behind the wall sockets and easy to move the socket from one place to other. Here you almost can not move to anywhere thanks for that junction box
GreeBo wrote: » or by tying into the ring main somewhere else.
Effects wrote: » What big junction box? Are you talking about standard back boxes? <snip>
w211 wrote: » This is very, very bad electricity connection. No safety at all!!! They try to compensate it by fuses on the power cord but it is too little too late. Damp rooms and bad electricity installation are the perfect for the disaster.
Effects wrote: » Are ring mains still used? I was taught not to use them, and that was 15 years ago!
lgk wrote: » Exactly, the only alternative to back boxes are huge ugly sockets that protrude out quite a long way from the wall. I've seen plenty of recessed sockets on the continent too. Even the one in Effect's image is designed to be partially recessed.
lgk wrote: » Why does a 16A breaker better offer better protection that a 3A fuse in an appliance plug? Why is it too late?
jhenno78 wrote: » Well, a circuit-breaker is a more reliable/faster device. Not all appliance cords are rated for use at 16A, but they're supposed to be able to be not melt/go on fire before a 16A switch trips. Here they'd get 32A before a trip so they'd definitely melt first. So, overall I do see how it's better. You've got all the protection you need happening in the consumer unit.
GreeBo wrote: » But you are reliant on every single appliance in your home having a rating of higher, often significantly, than the appliance would be individually fused for?
GreeBo wrote: » Wouldnt that also mean that you would have specific sockets for specific applicances? (Im thiking portable electric heaters as an example) You coudlnt just plug it into any socket, you'd need one that was rated for the appliance?
jhenno78 wrote: » What I'm saying is that AFAIK this is already the case. That the appliance standards are written in such a way that they have a "normal use" rating of eg. 5A but must also be able to tolerate a load up to 16A without being a fire-hazard.
Not sure I get where you're coming from here? All plugs/sockets/circuits (in Germany for example) are rated for 16A*.
GreeBo wrote: » If you have an appliance thats over 16A what do you do with it?
GreeBo wrote: » As long as you buy something that adheres to the standard, is it european standard or wider?
GreeBo wrote: » Sorry yeah I wasnt very clear. If you have an appliance thats over 16A what do you do with it? Its kinda the opposite of the lighting circuit sockets.
jhenno78 wrote: » AFAIK it's normal in Europe, and would apply here but is irrelevant because we need appliances to be able to deal with 32A circuits. Something I read somewhere... I don't think I'm going to spend the morning looking to find it for certain, but it's my understanding of the question of "why don't mainland Europe need to put fuses in their plugs".
Wire it on a separate circuit - same as you would here with high-draw appliances like an oven (except that a lot of the time they'd be 3-phase). An electric heater here would be max 13A so wouldn't be a problem. I think they generally use a lot more circuits. Here you might have all the sockets in a house on 2 rings, but AFAIK the norm there would be 1 radial circuit/breaker(possibly rcbo?) to a room, including lights - so you don't have so much risk as you'd expect of an over-current trip from normal use. Heaters is an interesting one, they were a lot quicker in adopting central heating too (and insulation) so even back then when this was all being worked out for the first time they wouldn't have worried too much about people plugging in heaters, and there isn't much else that's that high-current.
GreeBo wrote: » brexit disaster looms!
GreeBo wrote: » Yeah it was specifically mobile heaters that would you wouldnt wire directly, but looks like anything over 16A (or even 16A ) would have different plug/socket anyway, like the lighting circuit I mentioned earlier.
jhenno78 wrote: » Why yes it does! Not in this bit though? That standard would be something that's in excess of our needs because we have the protection elsewhere, so if it isn't met then it won't matter? But yeah, regulatory alignment with us being in such a small market could be a problem - likely that most stuff just gets made to EU standards anyway, so might not be so bad.
...here nothing over 13A has a plug/socket (in a house). Still not sure I'm on your page on this one. Where do lighting circuits come into it?
GreeBo wrote: » Fine for us, but Im thinking that the UK wont need to keep up an EU standard and so anyone buying UK stuff in the EU will need to take care.
GreeBo wrote: » Sorry, I meant 5A sockets that are connected to the lighting circuit.
jhenno78 wrote: » Not the other way round?
