To leave him, or not, please help

LegacyUser

Hey all, I will try to keep this short and still convey the context as best I can.
I am married three years now. My husband (30) has in the past been moody, bordering on depression, and though I have tried my best to cope and to help him and myself at the same time, he has not made it easy. We have a lot in common but our personality types are opposites . I am super polite and respectful of others, not looking for gain from them, while he can be manipulative and can turn on the charm when he wants something.

The problem is that even though I have helped him to better himself, educationally and behavior-wise, he hasn't changed fully and is still difficult to help and to get through to.
The other evening was a breaking point for me. Nothing major happened but I arranged an evening out for us to see a film at a meetup event and 3/4 the way through he was showing me the timetables for the next bus and asking me which one we were taking. He knew I didn't know exactly what time the film ended. He was interrupting the film on me to do that. It was just him trying to be controlling and spoil my good time. He also infringed on other people when he loudly zipped his bag open to find a drink and people turned to see what was causing the commotion.

I don't want this life. I want a better partner. I have seen a psychologist about 5 times about this, and she placed the focus on my self esteem and encouraged me to be patient and help him. Efforts only work temporarily.
He always has to argue, have the last word, and so on, and is not meeting me half way. Every morning he has to be helped get up on time, get his clothes, keys, etc. before work.

His whole demeanor has improved but he is still not seeing things from my perspective. I would do therapy with him except he is completely able to perform and come across well when he wants to, and I don't expect it would help.

He has never been physically violent but he is verbally and emotionally abusive, and does my self esteem no good, whereas I am always boosting his.
Should I just call this a day? And give up on him ever being a decent human being? We do not have kids as he is not mature enough and I don't want to bring kids into something potentially unstable for them. So it is just about me and him and I want to enjoy life more.

woodchuck

OP why did you marry him? Did you like the person he was at the time or did you hope that he would change? Tbh it sounds like you thought there was potential there, but that you could change him to be a better person...

Whatever about helping people through a dark patch of depression, it sounds like there is a just a fundamental difference in personalities going on here. That's not something you can "help" him with, it's just the way he is and always will be.

If you don't like the person you're with, I think you know what is inevitably going to happen. I always advise counselling for a LTR before resorting to a breakup, but I'm not sure how much use that will be if it's boils down to a clash of personalities... not to mention the verbal and emotional abuse.

heretothere

I'm also curious as to why you married him?

The cinema thing doesn't sound too bad, I make minimal noise in the cinema e.g. no popcorn during the quiet parts where as my husband will keep munching away. I've told him to stop a few time, I've told him it's rude but he will do it again a few minutes later! He's not trying to be rude intentionally or to annoy me it's just not rude to him. I always thought people who start to pack up in lectures early to be super rude too can they not just be quiet and let the lecturer finish before making a lot of noise. Again they are just oblivious to the fact they are being rude and don't think they are doing anything wrong. People just have different scales of politeness which can be very irritating when you're high on the politeness scale!

The rest if you can't see yourself ever being happy living with him, maybe a trial separation would help? Do you have anyone you could live with for a while? It might give you the time to really sort through how you feel

daithi7

I think you know what you want to do and are looking for reaffirmation here.

It's a big move, but you're young, no kids and this is a better time than in 10 years time with 2 kids isn't it?!

oLoonatic

It sounds like you are married to a child, by that i mean its a one way relationship. It sounds like you have gone to huge lengths to help him and try to help your relationship, at this stage I would consider calling it a day for your own sanity. There is only so much support you can give someone without it starting to effect yourself. But at the end of the day you are not happy and if he isn't willing to change that its best to move on.

LegacyUser

Yep, I believed there was potential there to help him and get him to change. I thought his issues were fixable as I put it down to mainly being due to his parents and his unstable background. They were abusive to each other, and verbally and emotionally abusive to the kids.

I had the idyllic family background and didn't suffer what he did, and this naivety coupled with a tragically huge empathy, got me into the mindset where I thought I could help.
Then there was progress along the way, and he has changed for the better, so I kept believing there was more possible. I got him to get his leaving cert as he had finished school early despite being bright (he was kicked out of one school after another). I also helped him get on a good career path.
But I am also responsible for being naive in general, doubly so back then a few years ago. He and his family have ruined my idyllic outlook on life and I feel broken about life and about the world. I deeply resent that he has done this to me.

I feel I deserve to be able to enjoy a movie, to get up in the morning without this weight on my head, and I want to be out of his controlling behaviour. I fight it all the time, but he seems to have beta/alpha male insecurities, hates colored people, and so on, and on and off talks down about women. He loved the hate against Hillary Clinton. It is an extreme example but it is part of how he behaves and thinks.

woodchuck

OP it sounds like you viewed him as a project.

Do yourself a favour. In your next relationship (because this one is definitely going to end sooner or later), make sure to find someone you love for who they are, not for who you want them to be.

A relationship should be a partnership of equals, but you sound more like a parent than a partner.

stargazer 68

shadaladyada wrote: »

Every morning he has to be helped get up on time, get his clothes, keys, etc. before work.


.

Op he is not a child. Tomorrow get up, get ready and go to work. Leave him to his own devices. Why are you holding his hand to get dressed etc?

LegacyUser

woodchuck wrote: »

OP it sounds like you viewed him as a project.

Do yourself a favour. In your next relationship (because this one is definitely going to end sooner or later), make sure to find someone you love for who they are, not for who you want them to be.

A relationship should be a partnership of equals, but you sound more like a parent than a partner.

Yep, I did indeed view him as a project in a way. Of course I do love him also - because we are such opposites there was an immense amount of newness and interestingness, and there still is. But I guess logic is beginning to actually take hold now, whereas in the past, I was all heart.

I am considering giving it a month of a serious effort to save it. He knows now it is at a tipping point and I am also seeing the psychologist for reinforcement tomorrow. I know I can cope without him - this makes me feel very good, knowing I can walk away if he doesn't treat me properly.

He either wants to change all the way, or he wants to stay as he is. I can't make the last change happen, even if I have done good so far.

LegacyUser

Dovies wrote: »

Op he is not a child. Tomorrow get up, get ready and go to work. Leave him to his own devices. Why are you holding his hand to get dressed etc?

Yep, will do exactly that. I was helping him to select the clothes, as he gets disoriented and puts on dirty clothes by accident, and then he also forgets his work badge, and so on.
I put a post it note on the front door before this but he didn't even consult it.

From tomorrow he knows he has to do it all on time if he wants to leave the house with me, or he stays back and does it all himself and is late for work.
It is just a symptom of the bigger issue, He has to shape up now all the way.

.......

You cant ever change a person, you can only ever change yourself.

You have to take responsibility for yourself, just as he has to take responsibility for himself.

I dont know why any adult would be helping any other adult get up and choose clothes etc... unless he has special needs or is a child why does someone need to do this for him?

I think you made quite a serious mistake marrying someone with the intention of making them a better person - it doesnt work like that.

You would be far far better off out of this relationship for both of your sakes. You are actually doing the opposite of helping him, you are enabling his dysfunctionality.

LegacyUser

....... wrote: »

You cant ever change a person, you can only ever change yourself.

You have to take responsibility for yourself, just as he has to take responsibility for himself.

I dont know why any adult would be helping any other adult get up and choose clothes etc... unless he has special needs or is a child why does someone need to do this for him?

I think you made quite a serious mistake marrying someone with the intention of making them a better person - it doesnt work like that.

You would be far far better off out of this relationship for both of your sakes. You are actually doing the opposite of helping him, you are enabling his dysfunctionality.

I thought it was normal to help your partner in the mornings if they were slow to wake up and get ready.
I have been helping him way too much. Stopping all of that immediately.
We at least have a kind of deal where I clean and he cooks - this much he does and is good at. But I am stopping the other over the top caring jobs. He can manage alone.

The other gotcha for me was that I have a mad work ethic and am super conscientious - so I had all of these traits almost set up for this - my old naivety, empathy, etc.

.......

shadaladyada wrote: »

I thought it was normal to help your partner in the mornings if they were slow to wake up and get ready.

There is a difference between being nice to your partner in the mornings such as making them a cup of tea if you are in the kitchen before them, and actually taking charge of the activities of daily living for them such as getting up, dressing, getting their keys for them etc...

Adults should be able to get up, get dressed, find their own keys.

The big problem with doing everything for someone like this is that its very difficult to stand on your own two feet when someone else is always holding you up. Your husband isnt being given a chance to shape up as long as you persist in babying him.

I would strongly advise you to see a therapist for YOU, to figure out why YOU feel the need to fix someone, to change them, to take them on as a project etc... And in doing so become resentful because they are not changing.

Its also easy for you to hide your own issues while putting the spotlight on all the things you need to fix in him.

LegacyUser

....... wrote: »

There is a difference between being nice to your partner in the mornings such as making them a cup of tea if you are in the kitchen before them, and actually taking charge of the activities of daily living for them such as getting up, dressing, getting their keys for them etc...

Adults should be able to get up, get dressed, find their own keys.

The big problem with doing everything for someone like this is that its very difficult to stand on your own two feet when someone else is always holding you up. Your husband isnt being given a chance to shape up as long as you persist in babying him.

I would strongly advise you to see a therapist for YOU, to figure out why YOU feel the need to fix someone, to change them, to take them on as a project etc... And in doing so become resentful because they are not changing.

Its also easy for you to hide your own issues while putting the spotlight on all the things you need to fix in him.

Having fallen for this person and being the carer type, it aligned with who I am to help another human being out, very much. It isn't at all out of a need to baby him whatsoever - it was out of compassion because when I didn't help him, he was forgetting something, believe it or not, or he was sleeping in, running late, etc. and I didn't want him to keep being late and lose his job.

I don't have personal issues that I am trying to avoid by centering the attention onto him.
My only issues were with how he treated me and I thought that the more I helped him, the more he would be a better person and treat me well in return. He simply is not kind enough in his behaviour. He is selfish in too many ways.

The psychologist focused on my self esteem, I think because she wanted me to put more time into myself. I am not low in confidence by any means, but I could be more confident. Of course we should all heap tons of good attention on ourselves and she probably saw that I was spending more time thinking about how to help him than I was on myself.

There is loads that I could be doing for myself with that time and energy instead.

wiggle16

....... wrote: »

I dont know why any adult would be helping any other adult get up and choose clothes etc... unless he has special needs or is a child why does someone need to do this for him?

Stuff like this, or any kind of abuse, usually starts off small and seldom and very slowly snowballs until you are in a situation you never would have dreamed you'd find yourself in before you met them. The odd throwaway comment or put down followed by an apology, that gets more frequent and then the apologies stop. I would guess that getting him ready in the morning started off with little things, esp if the OP is an early riser, that became routine and expected. People like this continue to push the boundaries of whats acceptable and so it becomes "normal" over time, and the stronger the victim is the more extreme it gets. I have a few female friends who were with abusive and violent partners in the past - without exception they are among the strongest people I know. That's how they put up with their partners' abuse for so long, they could "take it".

OP, this behaviour will not change, it will only get worse. It's ingrained in the personality of the person - he depends on it. Couples counselling should be the first stop for most rocky relationships, but not in this case - you would simply be adapting to this behaviour. Putting you down makes him feel better about himself. That's the only way he knows how to operate and nothing will change that.

As others have said, I think you know what you need to do but you're looking for a push or something to happen to make you do it. You don't need it. I guarantee you are stronger than you think you are. Don't wait for something to happen. If he's being verbally and emotionally abusive then when what you are putting up with is enough to justify leaving.

Get out before you invest any more time in this relationship. It sounds like you are falling out of love with him anyway so it's a question of when rather than if. You will begin to feel a lot better about yourself the minute he is out of the picture.

Best of luck OP

Witcher

Has he ever been assessed? The things you describe instantly made me think he was on the spectrum.

Green&Red

<SNIP>

Green & Red

If you have an issue with a post, report it. Do not challenge the OP in the thread.

Thanks

Wiggle16

LegacyUser

wiggle16 wrote: »

Stuff like this, or any kind of abuse, usually starts off small and seldom and very slowly snowballs until you are in a situation you never would have dreamed you'd find yourself in before you met them. The odd throwaway comment or put down followed by an apology, that gets more frequent and then the apologies stop. I would guess that getting him ready in the morning started off with little things, esp if the OP is an early riser, that became routine and expected. People like this continue to push the boundaries of whats acceptable and so it becomes "normal" over time, and the stronger the victim is the more extreme it gets. I have a few female friends who were with abusive and violent partners in the past - without exception they are among the strongest people I know. That's how they put up with their partners' abuse for so long, they could "take it".

OP, this behaviour will not change, it will only get worse. It's ingrained in the personality of the person - he depends on it. Couples counselling should be the first stop for most rocky relationships, but not in this case - you would simply be adapting to this behaviour. Putting you down makes him feel better about himself. That's the only way he knows how to operate and nothing will change that.

As others have said, I think you know what you need to do but you're looking for a push or something to happen to make you do it. You don't need it. I guarantee you are stronger than you think you are. Don't wait for something to happen. If he's being verbally and emotionally abusive then when what you are putting up with is enough to justify leaving.

Get out before you invest any more time in this relationship. It sounds like you are falling out of love with him anyway so it's a question of when rather than if. You will begin to feel a lot better about yourself the minute he is out of the picture.

Best of luck OP

Thanks for this, you have hit the nail on the head really. It had seemed inoffensive and almost acceptable to help him out so much but I realized that I am suffering because of it.
If I even just isolate the every day experience of waking up, my quality of life here is poor, at best. It isn't relaxed, or "yay another day" experience, it's a "get on with it" feeling, and I didn't ever have that before I met him. And as you said, I am too strong of a person for my own good (and too much an idiot) as I thought I could get on top of it.

I could almost cry because it feels normal to help him, but it isn't, not at these levels. And almost every day he breaks any chance of a routine because I can't rely on him to wake up at the same time and shower, eat. He will always change it around, he can't establish a routine and he stops me from doing so too. And I have started to really value my mornings. It is important to get it right, I have even started coming up with different breakfast ideas, just to take control and to make it good again, and it is only right now that I realize why my mind diverted to that idea, it is to get on top of the mayhem.

He doesn't have the right to spoil my day or any of my experiences. I have to overlook the good in him and prioritise myself and actually be selfish here for my own sake.

Thanks also about the comment about counseling - it is what I felt deep down, that it would just be a time and energy sucking thing and he will be able to conform, or perform, manipulate the thing, even possibly the psychologist / psychiatrist (the latter would be needed probably, I don't know).

It is just so tragic to walk off but you and the others here are going to be proven right - even with my showing him I am at my ultimate limit, he won't adapt or change because as you also pointed out, all of these mean things he does is to to make himself feel better, and to an extent it must do. He doesn't have enough empathy to stop.

Sardonicat

OP, why have you been responsible for him getting into the shower or eating breakfast? I'm completely at a loss to understand this dynamic. Did he make you feel responsible for his morning routine or did you decide what time he had to get up, shower, what to wear, whether to eat?

I may be reading this completly wrong but it's you who is coming across as incredibly controlling.

tea and coffee

My thoughts are that either he "relies" on you for help in another effort to control you (narcissist) - esp when you mention the charm.
Or the dirty clothes thing and bus timetable sounds like being on the spectrum.

GingerLily

Sardonicat wrote: »

I may be reading this completly wrong but it's you who is coming across as incredibly controlling.

That's what I got from reading it

Scarinae

shadaladyada wrote: »

I am considering giving it a month of a serious effort to save it.

I don't see why you'd need to give it a month of last ditch trying. I know you said that you love him, but it doesn't sound like you actually like him, and I think this relationship is dead in the water.

LegacyUser

You sound controlling not him. I second the aspergers comment, his lack of awareness and executive functioning, personal and time management issues point to being on the spectrum. In that case it’s not being lazy or difficult his brain is potentially wired differently. The cinema thing seems harmless enough rather than what you see as his intent to ruin things. If you do everything for him you’re only going to mask an issue to an extent and begrudge.

Rachiee

OP the way you talk about your husband is horrible you have zero respect for him so why are you giving it anytime at all?
Is being in a relationship so important to you that you will do it with anyone? Even someone you think is a bad person ?

It sounds like you were trying to boost your ego taking him on as a charity case and then when it didn't work you didn't get the boost you were after. Or is it just because you felt he is so much lower down than you as a person you wouldn't feel insecure?

Focus on yourself what do you want in a "partner" ? What do you want from life? make a plan and go for it. You are completely consumed by this unhealthy relationship and cannot see the wood from the trees.

Big Bag of Chips

You probably should leave, because he is never going to be the person you want to turn him in to. And really he shouldn't feel pressured to change who he fundamentally is. He might change for brief periods, but if it is not natural to him, then he won't be able to sustain it. You seem to only see bad in him. Maybe he was anxious about getting the bus. OK, there wasn't much you could do about it while you were in the cinema, but maybe he couldn't concentrate on the film because he was worried about how you were getting home. But you saw it as him just wanting to ruin your night.

There has to be good in him. You fell in love with him at one point. You married him. Did you ever love him? Or did you love the idea of changing him into someone you could be proud of and love? You really need to think about that. Because if it's a case that you loved the idea of him being completely different, then it's not now his fault that he is who he is, and you don't like it. I am certain there's aspects of your personality that he doesn't like. How does he deal with that? Does he point them out to you? Does he try get you to change?

I think if you are going to give this one month as a last ditch attempt you also need to look at your own behaviour, and see is there anything you can change. Because there almost certainly is. It might come down to you two separating anyway, but in relationship break downs, one person is very rarely 100% at fault. Maybe you two just are not compatible. You thought you could maje yourselves fit, but you can't. That's nobody's fault. Give it a month, but give it a month as equals. Not as you in the teacher mode teaching him how to be a 'better' person. See can you live with him just as he is (because realistically you cannot change him) if not then admit you made a mistake and move on.

SeaFields

Witcher wrote: »

Has he ever been assessed? The things you describe instantly made me think he was on the spectrum.

Was going to post this exactly. While it may not change your mind OP, there are certain indicators being described in your post.

Springfields

You married him waiting him to change? First mistake right there. Leave him and find someone you are happy with as they are now..

Alucan

It reads like you took him on as a project and now you that you haven't succeeded in converting him into the man of your dreams you are starting to resent him.

anewme

Every little thing he does is getting on your nerves.

Even zipping a bag to take out a drink in the cinema(which is harmless)

I agree that you speak about him very disrespectfully.

All of this selecting his clothes etc must be draining on you both.

You expect things done a certain way and it’s your way. He seems not to be allowed an opinion.

He must be walking on eggshells around you. It’s not a healthy environment for either of you.

sbsquarepants

OP I have to say you seem to be viewing this from the point of view of "I'm perfect, why can't he just be more like me?" That would irritate the shít out of me. To be honest I think you are as much the problem as you are the solution

"He needs help to get out in the morning" - no he doesn't. Do you think if you were hit by a truck, or had to go abroad for work for 6 months, he'd have to give up work and go live in sheltered accommodation or do you think he'd cope? Who dressed him before you met? Who found his car keys for him? Who found him a job enabling him to buy the car?

I personally think you need to take a big step back, start looking after yourself and leave him to look after himself - you sound very smothering.

leggo

OP you are in a codependent relationship. He leans on you to be cared for and even get out of bed in the morning, you project all of your negativity onto him as if you don't have issues, you literally said as much here...

shadaladyada wrote: »

I don't have personal issues that I am trying to avoid by centering the attention onto him.

Yet your attitude towards relationships in general is totally unhealthy. You keep using the phrase 'change', over and over, as if that should be the goal of a relationship, as if you should get credit for trying to change another person. Have you ever been with someone who's trying to change you? It's soul destroying. And it ALWAYS comes from their own issues, failed relationships etc, not necessarily a flaw within yourself. So you're actually being horrible to him when your default attitude is "You are a fundamentally flawed person and I must make you into the person I want you to be." When that's the attitude the person you're supposed to be closest to on the planet has towards you, is it any wonder he struggles to get out of bed in the morning?!

Healthy relationships are about acceptance, not changing someone. You accept and love your partner, warts and all, for who they are and not lament who they aren't. People are saying this to you in this thread but it seems to go right over your head, you're taking this very valid feedback as an attack when it's not and only responding to advice that backs up that he is the problem in your life. Yet he is who YOU chose to marry. YOU chose to help him wake up in the morning when many others would have responded differently like, "Get up out of bed and don't be so lazy relying on me." I'm not saying you're a bad person, but take some responsibility for your life being this way now and then you can actually do something about it instead of just laying blame for your unhappiness completely at your partner's feet. I'm not saying your partner is perfect and blameless either. It takes two to tango in codependent relationships.

Conversations need to be had and the topic of ending a relationship that seems to be a drain on both people needs to be on the table during these. In these conversations, refer only to yourself and not them. Talk about how you feel when he does some things a certain way instead of telling him he's wrong for doing things that way. Take responsibility instead of blaming. Basically have a mature, healthy conversation about your relationship instead of an impasse where both demands the other change to suit their needs, that'll go nowhere.

I wouldn't necessarily be going out recommending people end marriages willy-nilly, but the end result of these chats may be the acceptance that you need to go your separate ways, and that's okay, happens all the time. He needs to find someone who can accept and love him, and you need to find someone you can accept and love fully. I think both of you may be happier for it.