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How can someone in their 30s afford a house - PLEASE READ MOD WARNING IN OP

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    #872
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    ....so there's now no jobs or money in programming?


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    #873
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,090 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    Augeo wrote: »
    ....so there's now no jobs or money in programming?

    Depends, at google you could get over 90k total as a grad, at a smaller company you'd be on 30k/35k, even still in a few years it would go up like was said.


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    #874
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Tar.Aldarion wrote: »
    Depends, at google you could get over 90k total as a grad, at a smaller company you'd be on 30k/35k, even still in a few years it would go up like was said.

    :)

    Cheers


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    #875
    Yurt2
    Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Tar.Aldarion wrote: »
    Depends, at google you could get over 90k total as a grad, at a smaller company you'd be on 30k/35k, even still in a few years it would go up like was said.

    No grad on God's green earth walks out of uni into Google Dublin on 90k. Even in San Francisco a junior developer likely wouldn't start on 90 (dollar amount).


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    #876
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,051 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    pwurple wrote: »
    Ahem.

    We reached full employment last July, 2018.

    There are shedloads of jobs. I have a raft of open positions I can't fill.

    The company I work for currently has over 200 open positions.


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    #877
    pwurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    alexmalalex wrote: »
    Doesn't surprise me :cool:

    :rolleyes:
    Are you the dope who imagined two SUVs up for me?

    What’s your malfunction?


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    #878
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,051 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    lainey_d_123 wrote: »
    I have loads of friends who did programming courses because they kept being told there were loads of jobs in it, only to struggle to get anything. And if they did get jobs, they weren't well-paid.

    Earlier in the thread you kept going on about those lucky folk who had the aptitude for programming and how lucky they were and they might get a house out of blind luck. Now you have loads of friends in that profession who are struggling? Which is it?


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    #879
    cintec
    Registered Users Posts: 705 ✭✭✭cintec


    Yurt! wrote: »
    No grad on God's green earth walks out of uni into Google Dublin on 90k. Even in San Francisco a junior developer likely wouldn't start on 90 (dollar amount).

    A lot of companies like Google and Facebook give stock options so base salary may not be 90k but when the entire benefit package is considered 90k is not a million miles away.


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    #880
    lainey_d_123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,385 ✭✭✭lainey_d_123


    Interested Observer wrote: »
    Earlier in the thread you kept going on about those lucky folk who had the aptitude for programming and how lucky they were and they might get a house out of blind luck. Now you have loads of friends in that profession who are struggling? Which is it?

    The ones who entered it ages ago are now on good money. The ones who got into it in the last year or so because they were told there was a shortage of developers and they'd walk into a job are struggling. Don't think it's that hard to grasp.


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    #881
    lainey_d_123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,385 ✭✭✭lainey_d_123


    Dearg81 wrote: »
    Your friends shouldn't being doing programming because they think there's loads of jobs, they need to have an interest in it which might explain why some of them didn't get a job. Also nobody walks into a junior dev role and gets well paid, they need to stick at it for at least a few years before they get decent money.

    They do have an interest. I didn't say they're expecting to walk into well paid jobs. Some of them have been looking for months now and getting desperate.


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    #882
    lainey_d_123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,385 ✭✭✭lainey_d_123


    Lefty Bicek wrote: »
    There's a cost to everything. And the cost of doing the job you're interested in may well be lower money than you could get for doing something you are not as interested in, but for which there is demand.

    Since you knew what you wanted to do, you must have had some idea of salaries ? And therefore, of reasonable lifestyle expectations.

    Do you not see how this is an impossible position? Someone is after saying my friends shouldn't have tried to go into programming if they don't have an interest in it and are only going into it to make money. You're saying I shouldn't have gone for something I had a genuine interest in. Which is it? Don't you see how you can't win? Yes, I chose a perfectly sensible option at the time and unfortunately the job prospects in it have plummeted over the last decade or so. It's not like I was trying to be a novelist or a pop star. Not all of us are fortunate enough to have an interest in or a genuine talent for subjects which lead into well paid careers (medicine, etc.)
    Do you see anything incongruous in that ?

    No. How do you think people not going to college would help? Other than saving them time and money? If everyone became a plumber or an electrician, we'd have an oversupply of those.


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    #883
    Naos
    Registered Users Posts: 4,730 ✭✭✭Naos


    lainey_d_123 wrote: »
    The ones who entered it ages ago are now on good money. The ones who got into it in the last year or so because they were told there was a shortage of developers and they'd walk into a job are struggling. Don't think it's that hard to grasp.

    Okay so they have about a years experience, if even. What do you expect a programmer with less than a years experience to be earning?
    lainey_d_123 wrote: »
    Yes, I chose a perfectly sensible option at the time and unfortunately the job prospects in it have plummeted over the last decade or so. It's not like I was trying to be a novelist or a pop star. Not all of us are fortunate enough to have an interest in or a genuine talent for subjects which lead into well paid careers (medicine, etc.).

    What do you do?


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    #884
    lainey_d_123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,385 ✭✭✭lainey_d_123


    Augeo wrote: »
    ....so there's now no jobs or money in programming?

    Of course there are, for experience developers. Friends who have tried to go into it over the last year or two have found that the market is quite saturated at entry level due to the popularity of coding bootcamps and online courses. Employers have no incentive to take someone with potential and train them up if they have 40 other people coming out of Computer Science degrees with huge portfolios.

    Do you really not see how there's a huge element of luck and timing at play here? It's all well and good to tell people to go for lucrative careers like software development, but it takes time to learn enough to be able to work in them, and by the time you're ready, the employment landscape might look a lot different.


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    #885
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,051 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    lainey_d_123 wrote: »
    The ones who entered it ages ago are now on good money. The ones who got into it in the last year or so because they were told there was a shortage of developers and they'd walk into a job are struggling. Don't think it's that hard to grasp.

    This is complete rubbish, you are either making these friends up or they're unemployable for some other reason. I know first hand what the jobs market is like for people with tech skills at the moment.


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    #886
    Yurt2
    Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    cintec wrote: »
    A lot of companies like Google and Facebook give stock options so base salary may not be 90k but when the entire benefit package is considered 90k is not a million miles away.

    Glassdoor has a repeorted graduate salary of 32 - 34k for Google Dublin. Now that's not necessarily for a dev role, but let's say they pay an additional 10k premium to skim off the 1.1 degree cohort from the various unis in Ireland and elsewhere. There's no way in hell they're giving 45k worth of stock to an unproven dev.

    Google Ireland is largely operations and sales as well. The critical tech and R&D functions are elsewhere.

    We're going way off piste here in any case. People are trying to contradict Lainey for the sake of it, suggesting that the employment market for young people is rosier than it is. As if learning to code and getting hired by Google is a panacea to Ireland's systemic housing policy failure.


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    #887
    lainey_d_123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,385 ✭✭✭lainey_d_123


    Naos wrote: »
    Okay so they have about a years experience, if even. What do you expect a programmer with less than a years experience to be earning?



    What do you do?

    For the third time now, they would be happy to be earning anything at all. Some of them are on the dole or working in retail to get the rent paid. They were expecting entry level pay of about 25Kish in Dublin. The problem isn't that they aren't being offered enough, the problem is that they're not getting work at all. There are simply too many competing at that entry level.

    Don't want to say what I do because it's very specific, but I can say my cousin did the same degree and went into the same career and was comfortably making 50K a year by the time she was 26. Due to political and economic circumstances, conditions in the industry went downhill very quickly and now it's a patchwork of people being hired on precarious, short term contracts.


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    #888
    lainey_d_123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,385 ✭✭✭lainey_d_123


    Interested Observer wrote: »
    This is complete rubbish, you are either making these friends up or they're unemployable for some other reason. I know first hand what the jobs market is like for people with tech skills at the moment.

    They're not unemployable. Some of them have made it through a few rounds of interviews. They are simply being pipped by people who have more experience. Do you know what the jobs market is like for people with very basic skills, coming out of coding bootcamps? It's definitely not anything like it was even 3-4 years ago.


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    #889
    Naos
    Registered Users Posts: 4,730 ✭✭✭Naos


    lainey_d_123 wrote: »
    For the third time now, they would be happy to be earning anything at all. Some of them are on the dole or working in retail to get the rent paid. They were expecting entry level pay of about 25Kish in Dublin. The problem isn't that they aren't being offered enough, the problem is that they're not getting work at all. There are simply too many competing at that entry level.

    Well maybe they need to work on their interviewing skills or build a better portfolio of their work while they are on the dole. You can't have it both ways - you said earlier not everyone is lucky enough to be able to learn programming and thus get paid more than average, now it's your friends are programmers but cannot get jobs.
    Don't want to say what I do because it's very specific, but I can say my cousin did the same degree and went into the same career and was comfortably making 50K a year by the time she was 26. Due to political and economic circumstances, conditions in the industry went downhill very quickly and now it's a patchwork of people being hired on precarious, short term contracts.

    And did she move around like you did or did she stay in Ireland? If you've seen it go downhill why not upskill and move job? I appreciate this is not easy by the way, but you are clearly intelligent enough if you have "more than a degree" to do this.


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    #890
    lainey_d_123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,385 ✭✭✭lainey_d_123


    Naos wrote: »
    Well maybe they need to work on their interviewing skills or build a better portfolio of their work while they are on the dole. You can't have it both ways - you said earlier not everyone is lucky enough to be able to learn programming and thus get paid more than average, now it's your friends are programmers but cannot get jobs.

    And hence luck plays a part. How can you possibly deny that? It's really tiring to see people just doing their very best to get by and better themselves being told it's their own fault if they can't do well.

    One of my friends is actually English and I met her in London. She is amazing at languages and her dream was always to become an interpreter and work for the EU. Knowing how difficult it is to get in there, her back-up plan was to live on the continent and work as an English teacher and do freelance translation on the side. Now, how is that a silly or far-fetched plan? She had her dream job, plan A, and a much more attainable back-up plan B. She got straight As at A Level and went to a very good university in England and then did a Masters in translation and interpreting at another world renowned university. Now that Brexit is happening, it's practically impossible for her to do any of those things. Her entire life plan totally ruined by a political move nobody could ever have imagined ten years ago.

    So because she's a hardworking and industrious person, she started looking for another career option. A friend of ours who did a coding bootcamp in 2014 and has done really well out of it recommended it to her. So my friend spent a year saving and working in a shop and teaching herself the basics, then did the course. Now she's really struggling to find anything. Employers are telling her it's just the way it is now, that there are lots of people coming out with bootcamps and self teaching and that they're expecting much more from juniors than they would have just a couple of years ago.

    How is any of this her fault? She made sensible, rational decisions based on her talents, interest and salary potential and for reasons outside her control, things are looking very different to how they looked when she was leaving school. She's been advised to spend the next year or two building up her portfolio and practising and then to look again when she's much more proficient, and that's what she's trying to do, but she'll be pushing 30 by that time with no savings, no assets, an unpaid student loan and still hoping she'll be able to get a low-paid entry level role. Not quite the feckless, irresponsible person some posters here would make her out to be, is she?

    And did she move around like you did or did she stay in Ireland? If you've seen it go downhill why not upskill and move job?

    She moved abroad because she had to. I was prepared to do so, but it didn't work out. I am upskilling. Hardly something you can just do on a whim. I've had to pour all my savings into retraining and it will be 2-3 years before I'm earning decent money.


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    #891
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    lainey_d_123 wrote: »
    And hence luck plays a part. How can you possibly deny that? It's really tiring to see people just doing their very best to get by and better themselves being told it's their own fault if they can't do well.

    One of my friends is actually English and I met her in London. She is amazing at languages and her dream was always to become an interpreter and work for the EU. Knowing how difficult it is to get in there, her back-up plan was to live on the continent and work as an English teacher and do freelance translation on the side. Now, how is that a silly or far-fetched plan? She had her dream job, plan A, and a much more attainable back-up plan B. She got straight As at A Level and went to a very good university in England and then did a Masters in translation and interpreting at another world renowned university. Now that Brexit is happening, it's practically impossible for her to do any of those things. Her entire life plan totally ruined by a political move nobody could ever have imagined ten years ago.

    Why would brexit stop her working as an interpreter?
    Doesn't make sense.


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    #892
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,051 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Why would brexit stop her working as an interpreter?
    Doesn't make sense.

    That poster seems to have a lot of 'friends'.


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    #893
    Yurt2
    Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Interestingly, the "learn to code" movement is experiencing a bit of a backlash at the moment. While yes, the world can always do with good software engineers etc, it's become a thing politicians without decent employment and labour market polices reflexively say when they don't have any answers. It's also had its moment in this thread. Can't afford a sustainable housing situation? "learn to code!" About as useful as telling someone "get richer."


    https://www.google.com/amp/s/techcrunch.com/2016/05/10/please-dont-learn-to-code/amp/


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    #894
    Yurt2
    Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Why would brexit stop her working as an interpreter?
    Doesn't make sense.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.politico.eu/article/one-year-from-brexit-british-eu-staffers-still-left-hanging/amp/


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    #895
    lainey_d_123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,385 ✭✭✭lainey_d_123


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Why would brexit stop her working as an interpreter?
    Doesn't make sense.

    I can't believe you're asking this question, but as a non-EU citizen, she is no longer eligible to work for the EU, and neither does she have the right to work in any EU country. A situation she could never have imagined when she chose her degree.


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    #896
    lainey_d_123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,385 ✭✭✭lainey_d_123


    Interested Observer wrote: »
    That poster seems to have a lot of 'friends'.

    I do. It's nice having lots of friends. I can see it probably isn't the case for several posters here.


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    #897
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    lainey_d_123 wrote: »
    I can't believe you're asking this question, but as a non-EU citizen, she is no longer eligible to work for the EU, and neither does she have the right to work in any EU country. A situation she could never have imagined when she chose her degree.

    Doesn't stop her working as an interpreter though.


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    #898
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Yurt! wrote: »
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.politico.eu/article/one-year-from-brexit-british-eu-staffers-still-left-hanging/amp/

    Oh I know the brits have to leave eu jobs, but it doesn't stop her working as an interpreter.


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    #899
    Yurt2
    Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Oh I know the brits have to leave eu jobs, but it doesn't stop her working as an interpreter.

    Well then you should also know the EU is one of the largest, if not the largest employer of interpreters in the world - thus severely diminishing her chances of making a living as an interpreter.


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    #900
    lainey_d_123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,385 ✭✭✭lainey_d_123


    Yurt! wrote: »
    Interestingly, the "learn to code" movement is experiencing a bit of a backlash at the moment. While yes, the world can always do with good software engineers etc, it's become a thing politicians without a decent employment and labour market polices reflexively say when they don't have any answers. It's also had its moment in this thread. Can't afford a sustainable housing situation? "learn to code!" About as useful as telling someone "get richer."


    https://www.google.com/amp/s/techcrunch.com/2016/05/10/please-dont-learn-to-code/amp/

    It's just yet another way for the right wingers to sh1t on people and make everything the individual's fault.

    Your degree choice didn't work out? Just learn to code!

    Can't afford it? Well, take out a loan! You don't get anywhere without taking risks in life! You'll always get a job if you can code!

    Can't get a job coding? Well, you shouldn't have put all your eggs in one basket! Everyone knows the market is saturated now. You should become a plumber!

    Can't get a job as a plumber because everyone's been told to do it? That's your own fault, you should have known that would happen. You should retrain. What's that? Can't afford to retrain because you've spent a decade spending all your money on education and training? Well, just get a job in a factory, then. What do you mean you're overqualified and nobody will hire you?

    Do these people not get tired of listening to the bullsh1t streaming out of their mouths? It's almost funny, it's so ridiculous.


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    #901
    lainey_d_123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,385 ✭✭✭lainey_d_123


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Doesn't stop her working as an interpreter though.

    Eh....where exactly?


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