DS Automobiles launches the DS7 Crossback

road_high

kerten wrote: »

I was following this model for a while.

DS7 is the first DS model on PSA group's EMP2 platform + independent rear suspension(which other PSA models don't have).

Comparing to 3008/Grandland X, It offers more refinement, more powerful petrol engines, better interior materials and more technology(active scan, nightvision, etc) and interesting design especially inside.

It looks pretty well priced for all that and relative to the competition.

galwaytt

Marcusm wrote: »

It’s not really that big or powerful an engine in that tune, is it. It’s the same Prince engine that’s been in 208s, DS3s and (until 2010 or so) Minis got more than a decade. Can be up to 220bhp IIRC.

In a nation of 1.5dCi's it is

colm_mcm

road_high wrote: »

It looks pretty well priced for all that and relative to the competition.

What would you see as its competition?

road_high

colm_mcm wrote: »

What would you see as its competition?

Well they’re trying to be a French Audi aren't they? So the likes of the Audi Q3, Range Rover evoque. They’re more expensive aren’t they?

GeneHunt

colm_mcm wrote: »

What would you see as its competition?

They will be aiming the DS7 Crossback at the likes of the BMW X1, Audi Q3, Jaguar E-Pace, Volvo XC40, Range Rover Evoque and the Luxus UX

I mentioned the competition in the OP, and that's coming from DS Automobiles Ireland...

bazz26

If only I had a euro for every time a mainstream car manufacturer claimed to be competing against premium brands.

For Forks Sake

bazz26 wrote: »

If only I had a euro for every time a mainstream car manufacturer claimed to be competing against premium brands.

You probably still wouldn't be able to afford that DS7?

Let's be realistic, only French government dignitaries are going to be in one.

road_high

bazz26 wrote: »

If only I had a euro for every time a mainstream car manufacturer claimed to be competing against premium brands.

But isn’t that the point of DS? Establish a premium make based on a mainstream platform. I don’t see the difference between them and what VW/Audi do tbh

bazz26

road_high wrote: »

But isn’t that the point of DS? Establish a premium make based on a mainstream platform. I don’t see the difference between them and what VW/Audi do tbh

Audi are an established premium brand, DS are not, to most they are just a quirky French PSA sub brand. You will get more of your 50k Audi back come resale time than you will of a DS, that's the reality of the market. Equally someone looking at the likes of a RR Evoque or Jaguar E Pace is very unlikely to wonder into a DS showroom.

colm_mcm

GeneHunt wrote: »

I mentioned the competition in the OP, and that's coming from DS Automobiles Ireland...

Do you agree them though? How often has a French car actually successfully competed with premium brands. Maybe the original DS, but anything since then has been oddball stuff sold in tiny numbers to enthusiasts or anti-brand types or the French government.

road_high

bazz26 wrote: »

Audi are an established premium brand, DS are not, to most they are just a quirky French PSA sub brand. You will get more of your 50k Audi back come resale time than you will of a DS, that's the reality of the market. Equally someone looking at the likes of a RR Evoque or Jaguar E Pace is very unlikely to wonder into a DS showroom.

But Audi had to start somewhere too! They were bankrupt Auto Union before coming under VWs wing. It was essentially built into a premium brand since the 70s with in many cases reworked VW platforms. The PSA platforms are no less credible donors than the VW group ones. Whether PSA can pull it off remains to be seen but they seem to persisting with and investing in it.

Arthur Daley

Probably the last really successful big French barge was the Renault 25. The 607 did sell relatively well here as well, but as we know that (Granada) class has largely died off now. I obviously like to see them have their place in the market and sell something alternative to the usual predictable brands, but really they need to be a little bit cheaper than a true premium rival, as the higher end of the CX or Renault 25 range would have naturally competed with a lower spec 5 series/Audi 100/E class back in the day.

bazz26

I'm not doubting that it's a good car but reality is that DS isn't a name that people associate with a premium brand. Establishing a premium brand is not something that is done easily overnight or even over a longer period and many manufacturers bar Toyota with Lexus most recently, have failed many times.

So the big question is would you be willing to sink 40k or 50k of your own money into one of these knowing that very likely it will suffer an extremely limited appeal and huge depreciation or would you wait for someone else to do and then buy it in a year or two for a fraction of the original price?

road_high

Arthur Daley wrote: »

Probably the last really successful big French barge was the Renault 25. The 607 did sell relatively well here as well, but as we know that (Granada) class has largely died off now. I obviously like to see them have their place in the market and sell something alternative to the usual predictable brands, but really they need to be a little bit cheaper than a true premium rival, as the higher end of the CX or Renault 25 range would have naturally competed with a lower spec 5 series/Audi 100/E class back in the day.

But the prices look fairly reasonable to me? Starting at €36k for something very well trimmed. The 3008 is a very good car to begin with so you’re getting a competent vehicle to start with

road_high

bazz26 wrote: »

I'm not doubting that it's a good car but reality is that DS isn't a name that people associate with a premium brand. Establishing a premium brand is not something that is done easily overnight or even over a longer period and many manufacturers bar Toyota with Lexus most recently, have failed many times.

So the big question is would you be willing to sink 40k or 50k of your own money into one of these knowing that very likely it will suffer an extremely limited appeal and huge depreciation or would you wait for someone else to do and then buy it in a year or two for a fraction of the original price?

It’s a long term game alright and notoriously difficult. Will be interesting to see they fair long term. It’ll definitely fair better on the continent

Arthur Daley

road_high wrote: »

But the prices look fairly reasonable to me? Starting at €36k for something very well trimmed. The 3008 is a very good car to begin with so you’re getting a competent vehicle to start with

Yeah I think it isn't too badly priced for the lower level petrols anyway. That 36,000 for the entry level one, compares to 44 grand for an entry level X1, but the BMW is 140bhp vs 130bhp for the DS. Pocket 8k and be happy enough with it, especially if you will run it for a good few years.

road_high

Arthur Daley wrote: »

Yeah I think it isn't too badly priced for the lower level petrols anyway. That 36,000 for the entry level one, compares to 44 grand for an entry level X1, but the BMW is 140bhp vs 130bhp for the DS. Pocket 8k and be happy enough with it, especially if you will run it for a good few years.

That’s what I mean. It’s a decent entry price for a high quality vehicle. With a good service support it could be a very nice option indeed. I’d imagine they’re much better specced than your average bmw or Audi too.

road_high

Peugeot residuals have strengthened hugely with the latest generation, the 3008 being one of the “in” cars these days. That’s a good association to begin with

GeneHunt

colm_mcm wrote: »

GeneHunt wrote: »

I mentioned the competition in the OP, and that's coming from DS Automobiles Ireland...

Do you agree them though? How often has a French car actually successfully competed with premium brands. Maybe the original DS, but anything since then has been oddball stuff sold in tiny numbers to enthusiasts or anti-brand types or the French government.

I do agree with them - why not?! Who knows, if Peugeot was better handled back in the 70's they would now be in the premium class, because they were on a similar scale to an Audi at that time.
I remember when Toyota introduced Lexus to us back in the 1990 with the LS 400 and look where they are now. Your looking at this all wrong, having another manufacturer in the premium field is GOOD, because it also makes the others do more! Look at BMW or VW at the moment, I think they are way too conservative in their designs, it's getting harder to spot a new model because it's way too like last one, take the 5 series, the level of change from say the E34 to the E39 on to the F60 was wow, but the G30 could pass as a F60 facelift. Audi & Mercedes Benz not so much, but look at Lexus pushing there new design language, no mistaking there new models.

colm_mcm

GeneHunt wrote: »

I remember when Toyota introduced Lexus to us back in the 1990 with the LS 400 and look where they are now.

The key difference here is that the LS400 brought something new to the party and redefined its segment in terms of technology, refinement and reliability.
This DS7 is made from PSA Lego and from what I can tell brings no innovation apart from style/fit and finish. Pricing at reg top end is mental for what you’re actually getting.

I’m sure it’s quite a good car, but we’ve seen this before with DS. Being aimed at the premium segment age actually competing with it are two different things.

Arthur Daley

DS sells almost as many cars as Lexus does throughout Europe. Ok, obviously Lexus has a big presence in the US market and elsewhere as well, but in Europe DS is as viable as Lexus is currently. They both sell about 60% of the volume Alfa or Jaguar have, and that is probably the level they will be for some time, but it is not the case that DS are not up and running in wider European market.

The DS7 has been on sale in left hand drive since 2017, and last year it sold 18,500 vs one of it's main rivals the Jag E pace which sold nearly 28,000. The BMW X1 has a lot of volume amazingly enough at 111,000, it actually outsold the 3 series and the 5 series and almost as much as the Audi A4.

18,500 units means the DS7 outsold the Tesla Model S or Alfa Romeo Giulia:( for example.
If the DS 7 can now pick up say 5,000 units in the RHD market in the UK, it will be a reasonable success and about as viable as the E pace is to Jaguar. And they will look to sell a few here while they are at it.

grogi

Arthur Daley wrote: »

If the DS 7 can now pick up say 5,000 units in the RHD market in the UK, it will be a reasonable success and about as viable as the E pace is to Jaguar. And they will look to sell a few here while they are at it.

True. It is also a high margin car (R&D costs are low because it shares so much with its siblings). So even 5000 units bring hefty profit to the books...

Saw one of these live this morning. It's a really handsome looking motor that stands out from the crowd. It looks way more expensive than the 3008/Grandland X both of which are very decent looking vehicles as well.