Towing with and without a licence

mickdw

Is there an issue still 're trailers not being plated at all.
I read somewhere that trailers produced prior to whatever year don't need a plate. Is this still the case and if so, What happens then re working out legalities.

Spook_ie

mullingar wrote: »

To see what the max trailer capacity and the MAM (DGVW) wight for any car is , look at the VIN plate:




First weight is: Car only MAM
Second weight is: the max car + trailer MAM

Subtract the two weights and you get the max trailer weight and on this example, the max trailer weight can be is 1600kg.

This 1600kg is actual weight of the trailer, not the MAM of the trailer.

Dunno if I'm reading your post how you intended but the MAM is the trailer plus load weight not the weight of the trailer

i.e if your trailer weighs in at 350Kg and its MAM is 1600kg your actual load can only weigh 1250kg


I think...

Spook_ie

Decided to throw in some real world figures
https://www.iwt.co.uk/products/horsebox/hb-range/?tab=spec#tab

Ifor Williams HB506 is 920Kg unladen with an MAM of 2600kg there fore the two horses and any tack etc. can only weigh a max. of 1680Kg for the trailers rating
In your example the actual load allowable would only be 680Kg (920 + 680 = 1600)

and the HB511 is 1000Kg unladen with an MAM of 2700Kg which would mean the two horses, tack etc. could only weigh 1700Kg
and in your example the actual load allowable would only be 600Kg (1000+600 = 1600)

Think the maths is right but you get the gist

Spook_ie

mickdw wrote: »

Is there an issue still 're trailers not being plated at all.
I read somewhere that trailers produced prior to whatever year don't need a plate. Is this still the case and if so, What happens then re working out legalities.

2012 I think, would imagine you'd need to take it to a qualified assessor.

Wishbone Ash

howyegettinon1 wrote: »

... i might be able to borrow a trailer to suit the need...

You might be better off using an instructors set-up for the test. If you bring your own trailer you'll have to find someone with a BE licence to accompany you to the test center.

Wishbone Ash

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

You might be better off using an instructors set-up for the test. If you bring your own trailer you'll have to find someone with a BE licence to accompany you to the test center.

You are hardly going to be towing a mini digger for the test, the car and trailer will easily fall within the allowed weight combo for towing in your B license so no issue driving to the test Centre.

Also even if you drive to the test Centre without an accompanied driver if required they aren’t outside checking.

Wishbone Ash

Amina Unimportant Rosemary wrote: »

You are hardly going to be towing a mini digger for the test, the car and trailer will easily fall within the allowed weight combo for towing in your B license so no issue driving to the test Centre....

No one said anything about bringing a mini digger on the test but I think you need to have a look at the requirements for a BE test. It would be utterly pointless doing a test in a vehicle which does not meet the criterion for the licence category in the first place.

BE (Car and Trailer) tests
As well as the requirements in your appointment
notification and the general checklist, you also need
to comply with the following:
• If you are presenting for your BE (Car and trailer) test,
you must meet the vehicle requirements as set out in
your appointment notification.
• Your vehicle must meet the minimum real total mass
requirements - real total mass is the weight of a
vehicle including the load, if any, which is on it.
11
The trailer must be presented for the test with a real
total mass of at least 800kg, having due regard for safety,
stability, manufacturer’s guidelines and legal limits of
the combination.
In order to meet the real total mass requirement, you are
required to place 30 four-inch (100 x 220 x 450 mm) solid
concrete building blocks in the trailer. If it is accepted
that a trailer will weigh a minimum of 250kg on its own,
the 30 blocks (each weighing approximately 19-20kg) will
weigh an additional 570kg, which together will exceed
the minimum real total mass requirement of 800kg at
820kg. The blocks should be evenly distributed across
the trailer and positioned in such a way as to keep the
nose weight within the recommended limits.
100 x 220 x 450 mm solid concrete building block
The nose weight is the maximum load your trailer can
put on your vehicle’s towing hitch (set out by the vehicle
and hitch manufacturers). The suggested figure for a
safe nose weight when towing is around 7 per cent of the
laden weight of the trailer. The trailer should be loaded
in such a way as to ensure individual wheels/axles
are not overloaded, and having due regard for safety,
stability, manufacturer’s guidelines and legal limits of
the combination.
Also remember that in order to comply with the law,
the braking and lighting systems must be functioning
correctly and the general structure must be sound.

Amina Unimportant Rosemary wrote:

....Also even if you drive to the test Centre without an accompanied driver if required they aren’t outside checking.

The OP appears to be concerned about operating within the law hence my comment. The fact that the test centre staff don't check is irrelevant. Presumably the OP will have to access public roads to get to the test center. Gardai may not be impressed about a learner driving unaccompanied, nor his/her insurance company in the event of an accident.

mullingar

Spook_ie wrote: »

Dunno if I'm reading your post how you intended but the MAM is the trailer plus load weight not the weight of the trailer

i.e if your trailer weighs in at 350Kg and its MAM is 1600kg your actual load can only weigh 1250kg


I think...

MAM is maximum authorized mass, including trailer. Not actual mass if say half loaded

Wishbone Ash

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

No one said anything about bringing a mini digger on the test but I think you need to have a look at the requirements for a BE test. It would be utterly pointless doing a test in a vehicle which does not meet the criterion for the licence category in the first place.

So exactly as I said, the required weight can easily be pulled on a B licence in almost all instances.

CiniO

Cora Little Tripod wrote: »

So exactly as I said, the required weight can easily be pulled on a B licence in almost all instances.

But for driving test for category BE, you have to show up with car and trailer which can't be legally towed on B licence.

CiniO

CiniO wrote: »

But for driving test for category BE, you have to show up with car and trailer which can't be legally towed on B licence.

Them requirements would not force you into a situation where you are towing illegally on a B licence though.

mgbgt1978

CiniO wrote: »

But for driving test for category BE, you have to show up with car and trailer which can't be legally towed on B licence.

Pretty sure you can Cinio (as Treasure Brief Pointless said). Closed in Trailer, at least as wide and high as the Tow Car. More importantly, a Minimum MAM of 800kg. They only insist on the 30 concrete blocks as these will weigh approx 570kg and the trailer probably will weigh another 250kg giving a total of just above the 800kg.

This is the RSA's vague interpretation of the Trailer required for the Test, not mine

9935452

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

CiniO wrote: »

But for driving test for category BE, you have to show up with car and trailer which can't be legally towed on B licence.

Pretty sure you can Cinio. Closed in Trailer, at least as wide and high as the Tow Car. More importantly, a Minimum MAM of 800kg. They only insist on the 30 concrete blocks as these will weigh approx 570kg and the trailer probably will weigh another 250kg giving a total of just above the 800kg.

This is the RSA's vague interpretation of the Trailer required for the Test, not mine

There used to be a different requirement for pre 04 vehicles. The trailer didnt have to be closed in .
Im not sure if that applies now.
Its been a few years since i did the test

9935452

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

CiniO wrote: »

But for driving test for category BE, you have to show up with car and trailer which can't be legally towed on B licence.

Pretty sure you can Cinio. Closed in Trailer, at least as wide and high as the Tow Car. More importantly, a Minimum MAM of 800kg. They only insist on the 30 concrete blocks as these will weigh approx 570kg and the trailer probably will weigh another 250kg giving a total of just above the 800kg.

This is the RSA's vague interpretation of the Trailer required for the Test, not mine

There used to be a different requirement for pre 04 vehicles. The trailer didnt have to be closed in .
Im not sure if that applies now.
Its been a few years since i did the test

9935452

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

CiniO wrote: »

But for driving test for category BE, you have to show up with car and trailer which can't be legally towed on B licence.

Pretty sure you can Cinio. Closed in Trailer, at least as wide and high as the Tow Car. More importantly, a Minimum MAM of 800kg. They only insist on the 30 concrete blocks as these will weigh approx 570kg and the trailer probably will weigh another 250kg giving a total of just above the 800kg.

This is the RSA's vague interpretation of the Trailer required for the Test, not mine

There used to be a different requirement for pre 04 vehicles. The trailer didnt have to be closed in .
Im not sure if that applies now.
Its been a few years since i did the test

mgbgt1978

It has to be a 'permanently' closed-in trailer now.
You're right though. It used to be the case that an open trailer was fine. I think it had to be at least an 8x4 double-axle, but I could be wrong on that.

mullingar

Yes,

RSA specify that it must be a closed box design and must be minimum 8ft long internally and be same width as a car, plus must be taller than the car. In essence they are looking for a double horse box with 500-600 kg of blocks.

A double horse box weighs 900-1000kg empty. So you need a car plated at least 1600kg.

Edit, I did the BE test a few years ago and this is what they specified on the email regarding the trailer

The cargo compartment of the trailer must consist of a permanent, closed box body which is at least as wide and as high as the motor vehicle, and have a length of at least 2.4 metres. The closed box body may also be slightly less wide than the motor vehicle, provided that the view to the rear is only possible by use of the external rear-view mirrors of the motor vehicle. In every case, irrespective of the weight of the trailer unladen, the trailer must be presented with a load of 30 four inch (100 x 220 x 450mm) solid concrete building blocks, to ensure that it meets minimum real total mass requirements for the test (real total mass is the actual weight of the trailer including the necessary load), having due regard for safety, stability, manufacturer’s guidelines and legal limits of the combination.

BlackandGreen

Do I have to go sit the Driver Theory Test again if I want to get a provisional BE?

Wishbone Ash

BlackandGreen wrote: »

Do I have to go sit the Driver Theory Test again if I want to get a provisional BE?

If you have already sat a theory test for category B, you don't. (Provisional Licences ceased to be issued in 2007. It's now a Learner Permit).

If you held your category B licence prior to November 1989, you're automatically entitled to a category BE licence upon application.

mullingar

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

If you held your category B licence prior to November 1989, you're automatically entitled to a category BE licence upon application.

No. Afaik, There was an amnesty period, it's now long gone

The whole thing should be scrapped imo and everyone should just be able to tow on their B licence.

Its only in the last few years I even knew there was such a thing as the BE licence (and if I didn't read about it on this forum I probably still wouldn't tbh as its never something you hear about) despite spending years pulling heavy loads with jeeps and vans that would have been well in excess of the limits (in many cases even too heavy for a BE licence).

Add to that the fact I'm towing very large loads with very large trailers perfectly legally since I was 16 with tractors I can't really see the point of the BE. I was towing a 15 tonne load perfectly legally a few weeks ago with tractor and trailer yet I could be illegal pulling a bit of a tonne with a jeep, makes zero sense to me.

TrailerBob

The issue there is actually with agricultural vehicle licenses. How a 16 year old can be let drive a 180horse machine on the road with a 28ft bale trailer loaded to the hilt at 60kmh without so much as any kind of test is beyond me. And I speak as a lad who started driving tractors at 9... working up to low loader with an 18ton track machine on it by 17...but I always thought it was strange.

As for the BE, the increased popularity of horses and show jumping/eventing means more people towing than ever, some of whom may not ever have had experience before. It’s right that it’s is there, and for me, it’s not nearly detailed enough. No practical demo of coupling a trailer. No demonstration of how to safely load,balance or strap down a load on a trailer, which is far more of a safety issue than being able to reverse slowly around a corner.

Wishbone Ash

mullingar wrote: »

No. Afaik, There was an amnesty period, it's now long gone

So the NDLS and DTT are providing incorrect information?

And why would there be an 'amnesty period' for an entitlement?

To apply or a BE learner permit you need to have completed a Driver Theory Test*. If you have already successfully passed a Driver Theory Test you can apply directly to the NDLS to have a BE learner permit issued to you.

If you have never successfully passed a Driver Theory Test then you need to apply for a Car Theory Test.

*Unless you were awarded a full category B licence on or before 12th November 1989, in which case you already have acquired rights for a BE licence. Please apply directly to the NDLS for this.

https://theorytest.ie/general-information/faqs/

Del2005

Cora Little Tripod wrote: »

The whole thing should be scrapped imo and everyone should just be able to tow on their B licence.

Its only in the last few years I even knew there was such a thing as the BE licence (and if I didn't read about it on this forum I probably still wouldn't tbh as its never something you hear about) despite spending years pulling heavy loads with jeeps and vans that would have been well in excess of the limits (in many cases even too heavy for a BE licence).

Add to that the fact I'm towing very large loads with very large trailers perfectly legally since I was 16 with tractors I can't really see the point of the BE. I was towing a 15 tonne load perfectly legally a few weeks ago with tractor and trailer yet I could be illegal pulling a bit of a tonne with a jeep, makes zero sense to me.

So you think that having a BE licence and requiring people to pass a test is a waste while you admit to dangerous driving by towing too large a load for the vehicle. This is exactly why the RSA have had to clamp down on people taking the p1ss when towing.

The new tractor NCT has shown that the cowboys are still on the road, but at least this time it wasn't a different country that informed us that our commercial vehicles aren't safe.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/two-thirds-of-large-commercial-tractors-fail-new-nct-style-test-902828.html

alias no.9

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

So the NDLS and DTT are providing incorrect information?

And why would there be an 'amnesty period' for an entitlement?




https://theorytest.ie/general-information/faqs/

The grandfathered entitlement to the BE license was time limited and expired a number of years back, I know a few who hurried to get it done at the time. If it's not marked up on your licence, it can't be done now.

Wishbone Ash

alias no.9 wrote: »

The grandfathered entitlement to the BE license was time limited and expired a number of years back, I know a few who hurried to get it done at the time. If it's not marked up on your licence, it can't be done now.

Why would the NDLS and the DTT continue to provide the information on their websites?

donkey balls

Del2005 wrote: »

So you think that having a BE licence and requiring people to pass a test is a waste while you admit to dangerous driving by towing too large a load for the vehicle. This is exactly why the RSA have had to clamp down on people taking the p1ss when towing.

The new tractor NCT has shown that the cowboys are still on the road, but at least this time it wasn't a different country that informed us that our commercial vehicles aren't safe.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/two-thirds-of-large-commercial-tractors-fail-new-nct-style-test-902828.html

What country informed us that our commercial vehicle's are not safe ? never heard that before.

alias no.9

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Why would the NDLS and the DTT continue to provide the information on their websites?

No idea but a quick Google tells me the cutoff was 2013. It reads as if it had been a bone of contention for people who held their license before 1989 and had not had it officially marked up so they had a time limited window to get it marked up.

This is a link to a parliamentary question and answer..

http://seankyne.ie/pq-no-534-12th-november-driving-licence-category-changes/

To ask the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport if he outline the type of theory test and driving test that will be required for persons without the EB category of licence who held a car licence previously permitting the theory of trailers prior to the legislative change..

– Seán Kyne.



Answered by the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport Leo Varadkar

REPLY

Prior to 1989 there was a single licence category covering cars and the drawing of trailers with cars. In that year, a change in Regulations was made, so that the drawing of a trailer with a car became a separate category. People who previously held the single category had the option, when renewing their licences, of applying for both of the new categories.

It appears that, in some cases, people did not tick the appropriate box and therefore lost their trailer entitlement. I agreed, as a once-off measure, that the Road Safety Authority should accommodate people who could prove that they held a full licence before 1989 in reclaiming the trailer entitlement.

The once-off concession applied only to those who held full driving licences in 1989. Those who qualified for a full licence after 1989 were required to take a separate test in order to qualify for a trailer licence.

The RSA advertised the procedure for applying to reclaim the trailer entitlement, and the closure date was 8 November 2013.

There were no tests involved – the point of the exercise was to allow those who had previously held a trailer entitlement to reclaim it.

Del2005

donkey balls wrote: »

What country informed us that our commercial vehicle's are not safe ? never heard that before.

VOSA had to tell us the the DOE was a farce, which lead to us doing the CVRT.

donkey balls

Del2005 wrote: »

VOSA had to tell us the the DOE was a farce, which lead to us doing the CVRT.

VOSA aka DVSA? Text book merchants Wanna be cops who have their own interpretation of the EU regs.
A private company for profit.