Towing with and without a licence

howyegettinon1

loooking to rent a digger(1.5tonne) just want to double check the rules about towing


my cars VIN plate has below values



2117 kg - MAM

3917 kg - gross train weight

1- 1070 kg - axle load 1

2- 1060 kg - axle load 2



from reading online my car can tow a max of 1800 kg(3917-2117) is that right?


2117 MAM is car full of passangers, full tank of fuel and fully loaded boot. So if i drive the car alone should the weigh of the trailer increase as the car would only weigh aprox 1600kg?(cars spec is 1494kg im 90)



looking at the figures, i dont think i will be able to tow the digger by the time you add buckets and trailer weight, it would be well over 1800kg.


If I borowed a jeep from someone, could I then tow the digger or would I then hit the 3500kg limt for a B license?

Spook_ie

First question is do you have a B or BE license?

howyegettinon1

I have a B license

ayux4rj6zql2ph

The B licence covers up to 3500kg + a trailer up to a maximum of 750kg without needing a BE licence.

Spook_ie

howyegettinon1 wrote: »

I have a B license

Basically can't do it then

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/motors/ireland-s-confusing-towing-rules-explained-1.2633473%3fmode=amp

You need a B+E to tow anything over 750kg

mgbgt1978

Leandro Skinny Wreck wrote: »

The B licence covers up to 3500kg + a trailer up to a maximum of 750kg without needing a BE licence.

A category B driving licence authorises you to drive a car, van or 4 x 4 which has a maximum mass (as specified by the manufacturer) of not more than 3,500kg and is designed and constructed to carry no more than eight passengers in addition to the driver. You may tow a trailer with a maximum mass (again as specified by the manufacturer) not greater than 750kg, or where the maximum mass is more than 750kg, the combined maximum mass of the towing vehicle and the trailer is not greater than 3,500kg.


Not quite. Have a read of the underlined bit.....taken directly from RSA.ie.

Depending on individual circumstances it is possible, and totally legal, to tow (for example) a 1300kg MAM Trailer with many Cars on a B licence.

alias no.9

It's all about the max plated weight for both car and trailer, it doesn't matter if both are empty.

Gross train weight for a b licence is 3500kg where the plated weight of the trailer exceeds 750kg. The trailer must have a plate if it has a laden weight of more than 750kg.

The max plated trailer weight you can tow with your car on a b licence is 3500 - 2117 = 1383.

Renegade Mechanic

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

A category B driving licence authorises you to drive a car, van or 4 x 4 which has a maximum mass (as specified by the manufacturer) of not more than 3,500kg and is designed and constructed to carry no more than eight passengers in addition to the driver. You may tow a trailer with a maximum mass (again as specified by the manufacturer) not greater than 750kg, or where the maximum mass is more than 750kg, the combined maximum mass of the towing vehicle and the trailer is not greater than 3,500kg.


Not quite. Have a read of the underlined bit.....taken directly from RSA.ie.

Depending on individual circumstances it is possible, and totally legal, to tow (for example) a 1300kg MAM Trailer with many Cars on a B licence.

edit: Having said that the OP is never going to be able to legally tow a 1.5 ton Digger (on a Trailer with at least a MAM of 2 tons) unless he can find a Car with a MAM of 1.5 tons that is designed to tow 2 tons.

Iirc these yokes come in 4 wheel drive

mgbgt1978

It would probably be quicker for the OP to Drive the Digger Home....

Eric Cartman

why do people keep trying to defy the trailer licence thing, If you cant pass a BE test you probably shouldnt be towing over 3/4 of a tonne down the road anyway.

mgbgt1978

Plenty out there with a B+E who shouldn't even be driving.....with or without a Trailer.
Nobody here suggested the OP should Defy anything. Simply pointing out the Legislation as it stands.

alias no.9

Eric Cartman wrote: »

why do people keep trying to defy the trailer licence thing, If you cant pass a BE test you probably shouldnt be towing over 3/4 of a tonne down the road anyway.

My impression from the OP is that they're checking before they act, seems reasonable. The might never had a need for a BE license up until this and may not have time to get one before this job. In any case getting the plant hire place to deliver would make most sense.

ayux4rj6zql2ph

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

A category B driving licence authorises you to drive a car, van or 4 x 4 which has a maximum mass (as specified by the manufacturer) of not more than 3,500kg and is designed and constructed to carry no more than eight passengers in addition to the driver. You may tow a trailer with a maximum mass (again as specified by the manufacturer) not greater than 750kg, or where the maximum mass is more than 750kg, the combined maximum mass of the towing vehicle and the trailer is not greater than 3,500kg.


Not quite. Have a read of the underlined bit.....taken directly from RSA.ie.

Depending on individual circumstances it is possible, and totally legal, to tow (for example) a 1300kg MAM Trailer with many Cars on a B licence.

edit: Having said that the OP is never going to be able to legally tow a 1.5 ton Digger (on a Trailer with at least a MAM of 2 tons) unless he can find a Car with a MAM of 1.5 tons that is designed to tow 2 tons.

Yeah all about the weights, this changed in 2013 with the new licensing. M.A.M wasn't really heard of much until then.

alias no.9

Leandro Skinny Wreck wrote: »

Yeah all about the weights, this changed in 2013 with the new licensing. M.A.M wasn't really heard of much until then.

MAM is just modern speak for GVW which was the previous term

mgbgt1978

It was D.G.V.W. ...and yes, they included the Full Stops .


It's all TLA's (three-letter-acronyms) these days.

howyegettinon1

alias no.9 wrote: »

It's all about the max plated weight for both car and trailer, it doesn't matter if both are empty.

Gross train weight for a b licence is 3500kg where the plated weight of the trailer exceeds 750kg. The trailer must have a plate if it has a laden weight of more than 750kg.

The max plated trailer weight you can tow with your car on a b licence is 3500 - 2117 = 1383.

thanks, I straight away though the max is 1800 but didnt think to subtract from 3500 instead of 3917


For my car on a B license, max trailer+load is 1383
if I had a BE license it would be 1800 - as this is the cars limitation for trailer+load correct?


So to tow anything above 1800 with a BE license I would then need to borrow a jeep or a van and work of their plated weight



Yes it makes more sense for now to get the digger delivered

howyegettinon1

Spook_ie wrote: »

Basically can't do it then

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/motors/ireland-s-confusing-towing-rules-explained-1.2633473%3fmode=amp

You need a B+E to tow anything over 750kg

this was one of the articles I read when looking at this, I found it a little misleading as it doesnt get into explaining the MAM and gross train weight as well as this does. the way i first read it, it was total weight of the car(not the MAM) plus trailer plus load at maximum of 3500

alias no.9

howyegettinon1 wrote: »

For my car on a B license, max trailer+load is 1383
if I had a BE license it would be 1800 - as this is the cars limitation for trailer+load correct?

Correct as long as the trailer is plated for that load. You're limited by the car, the trailer and your licence. You can't tow an empty trailer that weighs 500kg but has a plated laden weight of 2000kgs.

howyegettinon1

alias no.9 wrote: »

Correct as long as the trailer is plated for that load. You're limited by the car, the trailer and your licence. You can't tow an empty trailer that weighs 500kg but has a plated laden weight of 2000kgs.

Lad!! Thanks for clarifiying that last part!!!! You probably saved me my license in future!! I didnt realise that was also a limitation even after this thead that part wasnt clear to me(I thought what behind me would have had to be leess than 1383kg to be leagal).

Borrowed IFW TT3621 trailer a few times already and would have kept doing so unless you pointed that out!! looking the specs up they are plated for 3500 :rolleyes: wont be borrowing that again......




could anyone give me a ball park on cost/time doing a BE license? From what I've read its, theory followed by spin with an instructor, lessons arent mandatory right?

ayux4rj6zql2ph

alias no.9 wrote: »

MAM is just modern speak for GVW which was the previous term

Aye, I’m old fashioned in the G.V.W term, that’s how I was trained up.

TrailerBob

200-300 all in. Theory test only needed of you haven't done one before. I would recommend taking a couple of lessons regardless. Will familiarise you with the route and any pitfalls of the test. You also need to factor in vehicle hire, as the test must be done with an enclosed trailer with minimum dimensions and with a weight in the back. There are a good few places who have such a thing ready to go. Test is straight forward if you have any spatial awareness whatsoever

368100

Eric Cartman wrote: »

why do people keep trying to defy the trailer licence thing, If you cant pass a BE test you probably shouldnt be towing over 3/4 of a tonne down the road anyway.

Why do people jump on threads like this and make the worst possible assumption as to what the OP is looking to do. OP seems to be asking if they can legally do something before they do it....plenty of people would just plough ahead

howyegettinon1

TrailerBob wrote: »

200-300 all in. Theory test only needed of you haven't done one before. I would recommend taking a couple of lessons regardless. Will familiarise you with the route and any pitfalls of the test. You also need to factor in vehicle hire, as the test must be done with an enclosed trailer with minimum dimensions and with a weight in the back. There are a good few places who have such a thing ready to go. Test is straight forward if you have any spatial awareness whatsoever

thanks for that, thats not too bad at all, I must look at getting it done be handy to have. I havent done the theory before, that would have answered half my questions about trailers and what I can and cant do yeah i might be able to borrow a trailer to suit the need, but defo wont be bringing that massive IFW trailer to the test now anyway, woulda failed on the spot

foxy farmer

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

It would probably be quicker for the OP to Drive the Digger Home....

And towing the trailer with the car on board.

Dakotabigone

People were towing long before the RSA.

TrailerBob

And we used to have no seat belts in the back, and we used to have 9 of us in the car, and we used to pull the cattle box with an oul corolla and sure it was grand...

Just because we used to do it, doesn't make it the right way...

CiniO

Eric Cartman wrote: »

why do people keep trying to defy the trailer licence thing, If you cant pass a BE test you probably shouldnt be towing over 3/4 of a tonne down the road anyway.

In some circumstances you can easily tow 1.5 tonne legally on B licence.
So what defying are you talking about?

mickdw

Is there any combination that would tow a lightweight race car on b licence?
Say if the car to be towed was 750kg.

mikeecho

TrailerBob wrote: »

And we used to have no seat belts in the back, and we used to have 9 of us in the car, and we used to pull the cattle box with an oul corolla and sure it was grand...

Just because we used to do it, doesn't make it the right way...

The good old days.

Coming back from the pub, after a lash of pints, get 8 or 9 lads into the car, while towing the cattle box with the latest purchase, and I think we Squeezed another few lads into the box with the freison.

Simple times.

mgbgt1978

mickdw wrote: »

Is there any combination that would tow a lightweight race car on b licence?
Say if the car to be towed was 750kg.

The Son tows a 500kg Autotest Car (and a 750kg Hillclimb Car, though not at the same time) on a single-axle Trailer.
Trailer is rated for 1300kg Gross. Tow Car (530D) has a MAM of 2,000kg and is rated to tow 2,000kg.

Car and Trailer have a "Train MAM" of 3,300kg which falls well within the Law for a B Licence.

mullingar

To see what the max trailer capacity and the MAM (DGVW) wight for any car is , look at the VIN plate:




First weight is: Car only MAM
Second weight is: the max car + trailer MAM

Subtract the two weights and you get the max trailer weight and on this example, the max trailer weight can be is 1600kg.

This 1600kg is actual weight of the trailer, not the MAM of the trailer.

mickdw

Is there an issue still 're trailers not being plated at all.
I read somewhere that trailers produced prior to whatever year don't need a plate. Is this still the case and if so, What happens then re working out legalities.

Spook_ie

mullingar wrote: »

To see what the max trailer capacity and the MAM (DGVW) wight for any car is , look at the VIN plate:




First weight is: Car only MAM
Second weight is: the max car + trailer MAM

Subtract the two weights and you get the max trailer weight and on this example, the max trailer weight can be is 1600kg.

This 1600kg is actual weight of the trailer, not the MAM of the trailer.

Dunno if I'm reading your post how you intended but the MAM is the trailer plus load weight not the weight of the trailer

i.e if your trailer weighs in at 350Kg and its MAM is 1600kg your actual load can only weigh 1250kg


I think...

Spook_ie

Decided to throw in some real world figures
https://www.iwt.co.uk/products/horsebox/hb-range/?tab=spec#tab

Ifor Williams HB506 is 920Kg unladen with an MAM of 2600kg there fore the two horses and any tack etc. can only weigh a max. of 1680Kg for the trailers rating
In your example the actual load allowable would only be 680Kg (920 + 680 = 1600)

and the HB511 is 1000Kg unladen with an MAM of 2700Kg which would mean the two horses, tack etc. could only weigh 1700Kg
and in your example the actual load allowable would only be 600Kg (1000+600 = 1600)

Think the maths is right but you get the gist

Spook_ie

mickdw wrote: »

Is there an issue still 're trailers not being plated at all.
I read somewhere that trailers produced prior to whatever year don't need a plate. Is this still the case and if so, What happens then re working out legalities.

2012 I think, would imagine you'd need to take it to a qualified assessor.

Wishbone Ash

howyegettinon1 wrote: »

... i might be able to borrow a trailer to suit the need...

You might be better off using an instructors set-up for the test. If you bring your own trailer you'll have to find someone with a BE licence to accompany you to the test center.

Wishbone Ash

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

You might be better off using an instructors set-up for the test. If you bring your own trailer you'll have to find someone with a BE licence to accompany you to the test center.

You are hardly going to be towing a mini digger for the test, the car and trailer will easily fall within the allowed weight combo for towing in your B license so no issue driving to the test Centre.

Also even if you drive to the test Centre without an accompanied driver if required they aren’t outside checking.

Wishbone Ash

Amina Unimportant Rosemary wrote: »

You are hardly going to be towing a mini digger for the test, the car and trailer will easily fall within the allowed weight combo for towing in your B license so no issue driving to the test Centre....

No one said anything about bringing a mini digger on the test but I think you need to have a look at the requirements for a BE test. It would be utterly pointless doing a test in a vehicle which does not meet the criterion for the licence category in the first place.

BE (Car and Trailer) tests
As well as the requirements in your appointment
notification and the general checklist, you also need
to comply with the following:
• If you are presenting for your BE (Car and trailer) test,
you must meet the vehicle requirements as set out in
your appointment notification.
• Your vehicle must meet the minimum real total mass
requirements - real total mass is the weight of a
vehicle including the load, if any, which is on it.
11
The trailer must be presented for the test with a real
total mass of at least 800kg, having due regard for safety,
stability, manufacturer’s guidelines and legal limits of
the combination.
In order to meet the real total mass requirement, you are
required to place 30 four-inch (100 x 220 x 450 mm) solid
concrete building blocks in the trailer. If it is accepted
that a trailer will weigh a minimum of 250kg on its own,
the 30 blocks (each weighing approximately 19-20kg) will
weigh an additional 570kg, which together will exceed
the minimum real total mass requirement of 800kg at
820kg. The blocks should be evenly distributed across
the trailer and positioned in such a way as to keep the
nose weight within the recommended limits.
100 x 220 x 450 mm solid concrete building block
The nose weight is the maximum load your trailer can
put on your vehicle’s towing hitch (set out by the vehicle
and hitch manufacturers). The suggested figure for a
safe nose weight when towing is around 7 per cent of the
laden weight of the trailer. The trailer should be loaded
in such a way as to ensure individual wheels/axles
are not overloaded, and having due regard for safety,
stability, manufacturer’s guidelines and legal limits of
the combination.
Also remember that in order to comply with the law,
the braking and lighting systems must be functioning
correctly and the general structure must be sound.

Amina Unimportant Rosemary wrote:

....Also even if you drive to the test Centre without an accompanied driver if required they aren’t outside checking.

The OP appears to be concerned about operating within the law hence my comment. The fact that the test centre staff don't check is irrelevant. Presumably the OP will have to access public roads to get to the test center. Gardai may not be impressed about a learner driving unaccompanied, nor his/her insurance company in the event of an accident.

mullingar

Spook_ie wrote: »

Dunno if I'm reading your post how you intended but the MAM is the trailer plus load weight not the weight of the trailer

i.e if your trailer weighs in at 350Kg and its MAM is 1600kg your actual load can only weigh 1250kg


I think...

MAM is maximum authorized mass, including trailer. Not actual mass if say half loaded

Wishbone Ash

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

No one said anything about bringing a mini digger on the test but I think you need to have a look at the requirements for a BE test. It would be utterly pointless doing a test in a vehicle which does not meet the criterion for the licence category in the first place.

So exactly as I said, the required weight can easily be pulled on a B licence in almost all instances.

CiniO

Cora Little Tripod wrote: »

So exactly as I said, the required weight can easily be pulled on a B licence in almost all instances.

But for driving test for category BE, you have to show up with car and trailer which can't be legally towed on B licence.

CiniO

CiniO wrote: »

But for driving test for category BE, you have to show up with car and trailer which can't be legally towed on B licence.

Them requirements would not force you into a situation where you are towing illegally on a B licence though.

mgbgt1978

CiniO wrote: »

But for driving test for category BE, you have to show up with car and trailer which can't be legally towed on B licence.

Pretty sure you can Cinio (as Treasure Brief Pointless said). Closed in Trailer, at least as wide and high as the Tow Car. More importantly, a Minimum MAM of 800kg. They only insist on the 30 concrete blocks as these will weigh approx 570kg and the trailer probably will weigh another 250kg giving a total of just above the 800kg.

This is the RSA's vague interpretation of the Trailer required for the Test, not mine

9935452

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

CiniO wrote: »

But for driving test for category BE, you have to show up with car and trailer which can't be legally towed on B licence.

Pretty sure you can Cinio. Closed in Trailer, at least as wide and high as the Tow Car. More importantly, a Minimum MAM of 800kg. They only insist on the 30 concrete blocks as these will weigh approx 570kg and the trailer probably will weigh another 250kg giving a total of just above the 800kg.

This is the RSA's vague interpretation of the Trailer required for the Test, not mine

There used to be a different requirement for pre 04 vehicles. The trailer didnt have to be closed in .
Im not sure if that applies now.
Its been a few years since i did the test

9935452

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

CiniO wrote: »

But for driving test for category BE, you have to show up with car and trailer which can't be legally towed on B licence.

Pretty sure you can Cinio. Closed in Trailer, at least as wide and high as the Tow Car. More importantly, a Minimum MAM of 800kg. They only insist on the 30 concrete blocks as these will weigh approx 570kg and the trailer probably will weigh another 250kg giving a total of just above the 800kg.

This is the RSA's vague interpretation of the Trailer required for the Test, not mine

There used to be a different requirement for pre 04 vehicles. The trailer didnt have to be closed in .
Im not sure if that applies now.
Its been a few years since i did the test

9935452

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

CiniO wrote: »

But for driving test for category BE, you have to show up with car and trailer which can't be legally towed on B licence.

Pretty sure you can Cinio. Closed in Trailer, at least as wide and high as the Tow Car. More importantly, a Minimum MAM of 800kg. They only insist on the 30 concrete blocks as these will weigh approx 570kg and the trailer probably will weigh another 250kg giving a total of just above the 800kg.

This is the RSA's vague interpretation of the Trailer required for the Test, not mine

There used to be a different requirement for pre 04 vehicles. The trailer didnt have to be closed in .
Im not sure if that applies now.
Its been a few years since i did the test

mgbgt1978

It has to be a 'permanently' closed-in trailer now.
You're right though. It used to be the case that an open trailer was fine. I think it had to be at least an 8x4 double-axle, but I could be wrong on that.

mullingar

Yes,

RSA specify that it must be a closed box design and must be minimum 8ft long internally and be same width as a car, plus must be taller than the car. In essence they are looking for a double horse box with 500-600 kg of blocks.

A double horse box weighs 900-1000kg empty. So you need a car plated at least 1600kg.

Edit, I did the BE test a few years ago and this is what they specified on the email regarding the trailer

The cargo compartment of the trailer must consist of a permanent, closed box body which is at least as wide and as high as the motor vehicle, and have a length of at least 2.4 metres. The closed box body may also be slightly less wide than the motor vehicle, provided that the view to the rear is only possible by use of the external rear-view mirrors of the motor vehicle. In every case, irrespective of the weight of the trailer unladen, the trailer must be presented with a load of 30 four inch (100 x 220 x 450mm) solid concrete building blocks, to ensure that it meets minimum real total mass requirements for the test (real total mass is the actual weight of the trailer including the necessary load), having due regard for safety, stability, manufacturer’s guidelines and legal limits of the combination.

BlackandGreen

Do I have to go sit the Driver Theory Test again if I want to get a provisional BE?

Wishbone Ash

BlackandGreen wrote: »

Do I have to go sit the Driver Theory Test again if I want to get a provisional BE?

If you have already sat a theory test for category B, you don't. (Provisional Licences ceased to be issued in 2007. It's now a Learner Permit).

If you held your category B licence prior to November 1989, you're automatically entitled to a category BE licence upon application.

mullingar

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

If you held your category B licence prior to November 1989, you're automatically entitled to a category BE licence upon application.

No. Afaik, There was an amnesty period, it's now long gone