Vegetarian

MFPM

gozunda wrote: »

I see you had to post that link again.
The funny thing is - I've already posted it once in this thread. Someone must be very hard of understanding

So much for the 'ignore' function - you can't even do that right.

If you bothered to read you'll note DD made a statement about the Lancet being debunked but didn't say by whom, hence my question and his reply....you manage to keep up with those baby steps?

gozunda

gozunda wrote: »

I see you had to post that link again.
The funny thing is - I've already posted it once in this thread. Someone must be very hard of understanding

Edit: RTFM problem alert lol. Just got a pm to say someone hilariously doesnt know how the ignore function works

Its bad enough to have to put someone on ignore because of stupid replies but they keep kicking lol. Again not hard to understand when using ignore - posts still show up when quoted by another poster
Tbh its a bit ignorant and rude when then you're replying to someone else tbh. But no bother :rolleyes:

Now thats not hard is it?

gozunda

Interesting article about symbiosis humans and animals in the following and the fact that it's not only humans who farm. Of course this relates to the fact that animals have been eating other animals for millennia and the primary fact that humans are animals no matter how much we distance ourselves from nature. And the end of the day the eating of meat is part of the process of entrophy wherby energy is recycled in ecology. Is this pretty? No its not - but it's not disneyland either. All types of food production involves the death and destruction of other organisms whether humans are involved or otherwise.

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150105-animals-that-grow-their-own-food

Humans live in symbioses of various intensities with a number of domesticated animals and plants. To varying degrees, these cultural symbioses are mutualistic, with both humans and the other species benefitting.

For example, all important agricultural plants exist in tight mutualisms with humans. Agricultural varieties of corn or maize (Zea mays), for example, are no longer capable of reproducing independently of human management. This is because over time the fruiting structure of maize has been selected to be enclosed in a leafy sheath that does not open, and to have seeds that do not easily separate (or shatter) from the supporting tissue (the cob). If humans did not plant the seeds of maize, the species would rapidly become extinct, because it no longer occurs as wild populations. The same is substantially true for most agricultural plants that have become extensively modified through cultural selection by humans. Humans, of course, benefit greatly from their mutualisms with agricultural plants, through the provision of crops of food, fiber, and other products.

Similarly, agricultural animals live in a symbiotic mutualism with humans. Cows (Bos taurus), for example, benefit from their human-managed access to fodder, veterinary services, and protection from predators, while humans benefit from access to milk and meat.

Even the keeping of animals as pets represents a type of mutualism. Pet dogs (Canis familiaris) and cats (Felis catus) are fed and kept safe in domestication, while humans benefit from the companionship of these animals, and sometimes from other services, as when cats kill pest rodents.

http://science.jrank.org/pages/6660/Symbiosis-Symbioses-between-humans-other-species.html

This is as is btw - no need to quote me.

MFPM

gozunda wrote: »

Edit: RTFM problem alert lol. Just got a pm to say someone hilariously doesnt know how the ignore function works

Its bad enough to have to put someone on ignore because of stupid replies but they keep kicking lol. Again not hard to understand when using ignore - posts still show up when quoted by another poster
Tbh its a bit ignorant and rude when then you're replying to someone else tbh. But no bother :rolleyes:

Now thats not hard is it?

You're the gift that keeps giving....One would have thought that when putting someone on 'ignore' one would also translate that into ignoring them WHEN other posters comment or reply, but to paraphrase a star wars character the stupid is strong in this one....too much animal flesh in their diet clearly.

MFPM

gozunda wrote: »

Interesting article about symbiosis humans and animals in the following and the fact that it's not only humans who farm. Of course this relates to the fact that animals have been eating other animals for millennia and the primary fact that humans are animals no matter how much we distance ourselves from nature. And the end of the day the eating of meat is part of the process of entrophy wherby energy is recycled in ecology. Is this pretty? No its not - but it's not disneyland either. All types of food production involves the death and destruction of other organisms whether humans are involved or otherwise.

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150105-animals-that-grow-their-own-food



http://science.jrank.org/pages/6660/Symbiosis-Symbioses-between-humans-other-species.html

This is as is btw - no need to quote me.

Interesting article about symbiosis humans and animals in the following and the fact that it's not only humans who farm. Of course this relates to the fact that animals have been eating other animals for millennia and the primary fact that humans are animals no matter how much we distance ourselves from nature. And the end of the day the eating of meat is part of the process of entrophy wherby energy is recycled in ecology. Is this pretty? No its not - but it's not disneyland either. All types of food production involves the death and destruction of other organisms whether humans are involved or otherwise.

Jesus this is unreal....guy is trying to link the natural instincts of SOME animals (he seems oblivious to the many herbivore animals - some of the biggest and stronger in nature too) to the deliberate, sustained and unnecessary production of animals for food....

All types of food production involves the death and destruction of other organisms whether humans are involved or otherwise.

So pulling a cabbage from the ground is the same as electrocuting a chicken having kept it in a cramped cage to help you have your 'chicken' fillet roll for your lunch.

emaherx

MFPM wrote: »

Jesus this is unreal....guy is trying to link the natural instincts of SOME animals (he seems oblivious to the many herbivore animals - some of the biggest and stronger in nature too) to the deliberate, sustained and unnecessary production of animals for food....



So pulling a cabbage from the ground is the same as electrocuting a chicken having kept it in a cramped cage to help you have your 'chicken' fillet roll for your lunch.

Yes, to the billions of insects poisoned in producing cabbage. Do you think those insects care about how chicken is treated?

emaherx

Dakota Dan wrote: »

Grazing animals put co2 back in the plants, methane only lasts 12 years in the atmosphere unlike co2 from fossil fuels which last 200+ When they were comparing meat production to transport they left out the carbon sink that farming creates and only took emissions from exhaust pipes leaving out everything associated with transport. Also constantly tilling land for vegetables will wreck the soil and lots of land is more suited to growing grass, constant ploughing also releases co2.. The fairytale of everyone eating plants will not work in the real world.

Exactly.
Not forgetting that cows don't produce carbon but can only release the carbon stored in grass which was relatively recently captured from the atmosphere as part of the carbon cycle, unlike Fossil fuels burning vehicles which release carbon which has been stored in oil underground for millions of years and has not been part of the carbon cycle for a very long time.

Also the important role grazing animals can serve in slowing and even reversing the desertification of the planet.

dodderangler

Zorya wrote: »

Roh kay then, I'll make do with deer and wild goats. We have gazillions of them out here.

(But I will cry if I ever have to kill a deer. I love them so much.)

I love deer aswell. Especially roasted. And the liver and heart is absolutely beautiful. Best meat you’ll ever ever eat

gozunda

emaherx wrote: »

Exactly.
Not forgetting that cows don't produce carbon but can only release the carbon stored in grass which was relatively recently captured from the atmosphere as part of the carbon cycle, unlike Fossil fuels burning vehicles which release carbon which has been stored in oil underground for millions of years and has not been part of the carbon cycle for a very long time.
Also the important role grazing animals can serve in slowing and even reversing the desertification of the planet.

There is also the fact that fossil fuels and transport remain the single biggest contributors to green house gas emissions. Global agriculture at least feeds people. Then there's the plant based agitators who don't think twice before jump on an airplane to go and spread whatever rubbish ideology they are pushing.

Agriculture world wide contributes approx just 15 % of ghgs. This 15% is as a result of feeding people. Yet it remains the use of fossil fuels and the transport sector are the single biggest contributor to these gases. Yet do we hear about the vegans or others telling others or using their billboards to claim "Cars are killing us" or whatever. No we don't.

Notably the propaganda from the veganista film 'cowspiracy' (sic) used made up figures that animal agriculture was somehow the biggest contributor and which was shown by experts to be complete hogwash.

See:
http://www.vancouverhumanesociety.bc.ca/wp-content/uploads/Livestock-and-greenhouse-gas-emissions.-The-importance-of-getting-the-numbers-right.pdf
https://newint.org/blog/2016/02/10/cowspiracy-stampeding-in-the-wrong-direction[/quote]

MadDog76

I've recently become vegetarian but still slaughter cows, pigs and chickens regularly!

emaherx

gozunda wrote: »

There is also the fact that fossil fuels and transport remain the single biggest contributors to green house gas emissions. Global agriculture at least feeds people. Then there's the plant based agitators who don't think twice before jump on an airplane to go and spread whatever rubbish ideology they are pushing.

Agriculture world wide contributes approx just 15 % of ghgs. This 15% is as a result of feeding people. Yet it remains the use of fossil fuels and the transport sector are the single biggest contributor to these gases. Yet do we hear about the vegans or others telling others or using their billboards to claim "Cars are killing us" or whatever. No we don't.

Notably the propaganda from the veganista film 'cowspiracy' (sic) used made up figures that animal agriculture was somehow the biggest contributor and which was shown by experts to be complete hogwash.

See:
http://www.vancouverhumanesociety.bc.ca/wp-content/uploads/Livestock-and-greenhouse-gas-emissions.-The-importance-of-getting-the-numbers-right.pdf
https://newint.org/blog/2016/02/10/cowspiracy-stampeding-in-the-wrong-direction

And burning fossil fuels, fracking and rice production responsible for most of the Methane too!
https://www.ecowatch.com/nasa-study-methane-spike-2526089909.html?fbclid=IwAR1U87gLM7Mz9MyrYPPoBEfixyCldqpLIDUR0H0ijJFSgRl4lRqoUEw0uxE

Penfailed

ShaneC93 wrote: »

I wonder what vegetarians & vegans will think of cultured meat (lab-grown meat that is made without harming / killing the animal) which a few companies are planning to start mass-producing this year. Will they all eat it because the slaughtering animals aspect is gone? Or stay veggy/vegan for health reasons.

Vegans don't even eat eggs, drink milk or wear leather so I don't suppose they'll entertain the cultured meat.


Me personally...I'm cutting back.

gozunda

emaherx wrote: »

Yes, to the billions of insects poisoned in producing cabbage. Do you think those insects care about how chicken is treated?

True and not Just insects

Are animals killed in the process of farming vegan foods? Is it possible for a vegan to ensure that no animals were harmed in the production of their food without growing it themselves?

Charlie Knoles, Vegan with B. science in biology and agriculture.

Updated Dec 30, 2015 · Author has 543answers and 4.9m answer views

A lot of animals are killed in all kinds of agriculture. I'll never forget the first time I saw a combine harvester go through an organic soybean field and kill all the animals that had made that field their home. Among the many animals that died that day were baby bunnies that were skinned by the blades and were then eaten alive by hawks.  The hawks followed the harvester through the field looking for an easy meal. I knew that the farmer had contracted his crop to an organic tofu company and that most of the people eating this food would be vegans and vegetarians. The irony of this situation was enough to stop me from going vegan for many years afterwards. I would frequently bring up this anecdote when I would argue with vegan friends. It still annoys me when my fellow vegans act as though their lifestyle is 100% cruelty free and that no animals die in the process of making their food. It speaks to an ignorance of the realities of farming and rural life

https://www.quora.com/Are-animals-killed-in-the-process-of-farming-vegan-foods-Is-it-possible-for-a-vegan-to-ensure-that-no-animals-were-harmed-in-the-production-of-their-food-without-growing-it-themselves

Edit: emaherx - meant to say thanks for picking that up for me up btw. Obviously not going to reply to that poster. The hillarious thing is that that post was about symbiosis between organisms. It would appear that basic comprehension skills these days really are woeful lol.

emaherx

gozunda wrote: »

True and not Just insects



https://www.quora.com/Are-animals-killed-in-the-process-of-farming-vegan-foods-Is-it-possible-for-a-vegan-to-ensure-that-no-animals-were-harmed-in-the-production-of-their-food-without-growing-it-themselves

Animals accidentally killed during harvest, as well as those intentionally targeted as vermin not to mention legally required vermin control in warehouses and processing plants and every part of the supply chain.

MFPM

emaherx wrote: »

Yes, to the billions of insects poisoned in producing cabbage. Do you think those insects care about how chicken is treated?

Nice try:rolleyes: So your argument is that if one cannot be 'perfect' then one should set the bar at it's lowest level? The fact that I may kill insects by walking down the street is in your mindset enough justification for the (unnecessary) intensive production of animals keeping them in poor conditions and then engaing in mass slaughter.

emaherx

MFPM wrote: »

Nice try:rolleyes: So your argument is that if one cannot be 'perfect' then one should set the bar at it's lowest level? The fact that I may kill insects by walking down the street is in your mindset enough justification for the (unnecessary) intensive production of animals keeping them in poor conditions and then engaing in mass slaughter.

No. The fact that there is systematic intentional annihilation of sentiant creatures to produce your cabbage and you are ok with that. Totally different to accidentally stepping on insects.

You also set the bar at level that suits you. You can eat meat without eating intensively farmed meat.

MFPM

emaherx wrote: »

No. The fact that there is systematic intentional annihilation of sentiant creatures to produce your cabbage and you are ok with that. Totally different to accidentally stepping on insects.

You also set the bar at level that suits you. You can eat meat without eating intensively farmed meat.

The fact that there is systematic intentional annihilation of sentiant creatures to produce your cabbage and you are ok with that.

And you know it's possible to produce cabbage et.al without doing this and using natural methods, many farmers do. No where did I state I was 'OK' with intentional annihilation of insects, that's something you made up.

The fact that insects will die as a result of something I've no control over (walking) is entirely different to attempted justification for the mass production of animals for unnecessary food production and as I said a pretty low bar to set.

You can eat meat without eating intensively farmed meat.

Indeed you can (although very, very few people do) and at least if you made that argument I could respect that argument rather than the diversion you've engaged in.

emaherx

MFPM wrote: »

And you know it's possible to produce cabbage et.al without doing this and using natural methods, many farmers do. No where did I state I was 'OK' with intentional annihilation of insects, that's something you made up.

The fact that insects will die as a result of something I've no control over (walking) is entirely different to attempted justification for the mass production of animals for unnecessary food production and as I said a pretty low bar to set.



Indeed you can (although very, very few people do) and at least if you made that argument I could respect that argument rather than the diversion you've engaged in.

Most natural methods would be organic pesticides which still kill insects. (Or encourage other species to do your dirty work, but what's the difference?)

You cannot produce food on the scale required for an entirely vegan planet without controlling insects and it is highly unlikely that you could feed a vegan planet to start with as there is not enough arable land.

#smalllivesmatter

gozunda

emaherx wrote: »

Most natural methods would be organic pesticides which still kill insects.

You cannot produce food on the scale required for an entirely vegan planet without controlling insects and it is highly unlikely that you could feed a vegan planet to start with as there is not enough arable land.

Insects and other invertebrates, birds, butterflies, rabbits, hares etc are all routinely eradicated in field scale cultivation and harvesting of of both organic and conventional horticultural produce. It makes me laugh when some think that nothing gets harmed, no fields are ploughed, drains dug, forests removed, scarce water extracted for them to have their quinoa or their avocado or rice or whatever they believe exists in the magical realm of fairy fluff where all is unicorns and rainbows.

The thing is the world would starve if any of these eejits were running the show. One of the most hillarious things in all of this is that the same crew are against the commercial use of bees for pollination. Now just wait until the fruits and crops don't get pollinated, the crops fail and wait for the 'oh bugger' movement when that penny will finally drop ... :pac:

Either way it matters little to the bunny rabbit mashed by the combine harvester if someone somewhere believes his death was unintentional or otherwise. The thing this type of death and destruction is unavoidable- it happens. That some may have the head stuck in the sand is irrelevant.

SeanW

I guess this thread proves the old adage "How do you know if someone is a vegan/vegetarian? They'll tell you!"

anewme

SeanW wrote: »

I guess this thread proves the old adage "How do you know if someone is a vegan/vegetarian? They'll tell you!"

Well given that the thread title is "vegetarian" and the question is are you cutting down on meat consumption, why would you be surprised that people tell you they are vegetarian.

Is this a trick question?

Say my name

There's an ad of Rozanna Purcell appearing lately advertising 'Innocent' (s) range of goodies.

She's shown making different recipes on the ads. Just to pick one out for no particular reason.

'Roz's Sweet Potato and Coconut Curry'

I decided to work out the air kilometres and the effect this recipe has on the environment.
So here goes....

1 tbsp oil...Ukraine. .. 3,325km.
1 onion ...UK....500km.
4 cloves of garlic....Spain...2,456km.
2 " ginger....India...8,013km.
3 tbsp curry paste ..India. ..8,013km.
1 tsp tumeric ...India. ..8,013km.
1 tbsp cumin powder ...India. ..8,013km.
1 tbsp tamari sauce ...Japan. ..9,565km.
100 ml water...Ireland. ..0km.
1 large sweet potato...Portugal. ..2,795km
1 tin chickpeas..India...8,013km.
1 tin chopped tomatoes..Spain..2,456km
400ml coconut milk...Philippines..11,269km
200g baby spinach..Italy..2,618km.
Juice of 1 lime...Morocco. .3,770km.
200g white rice...Thailand..9,825km.
Chopped coriander. ..India...8,013km.
Diced red chilli...Brazil...8,571km.
Diced lime...Morocco..3,770km.

So the total of this one 'Innocent' Rozanna Purcell meal is 108,998km air km's.

Assuming a burn rate of 12 litres per km, that's 1,307,976 litres of jet fuel burned to provide this lovely meal.

s7ryf3925pivug

Say my name wrote: »

There's an ad of Rozanna Purcell appearing lately advertising 'Innocent' (s) range of goodies.

She's shown making different recipes on the ads. Just to pick one out for no particular reason.

'Roz's Sweet Potato and Coconut Curry'

I decided to work out the air kilometres and the effect this recipe has on the environment.
So here goes....

1 tbsp oil...Ukraine. .. 3,325km.
1 onion ...UK....500km.
4 cloves of garlic....Spain...2,456km.
2 " ginger....India...8,013km.
3 tbsp curry paste ..India. ..8,013km.
1 tsp tumeric ...India. ..8,013km.
1 tbsp cumin powder ...India. ..8,013km.
1 tbsp tamari sauce ...Japan. ..9,565km.
100 ml water...Ireland. ..0km.
1 large sweet potato...Portugal. ..2,795km
1 tin chickpeas..India...8,013km.
1 tin chopped tomatoes..Spain..2,456km
400ml coconut milk...Philippines..11,269km
200g baby spinach..Italy..2,618km.
Juice of 1 lime...Morocco. .3,770km.
200g white rice...Thailand..9,825km.
Chopped coriander. ..India...8,013km.
Diced red chilli...Brazil...8,571km.
Diced lime...Morocco..3,770km.

So the total of this one 'Innocent' Rozanna Purcell meal is 108,998km air km's.

Assuming a burn rate of 12 litres per km, that's 1,307,976 litres of jet fuel burned to provide this lovely meal.

Each ingredient doesn't get its own freighter... I thought that was obvious but your argument seems to be founded on the notion that they do.

Mutant z

Thats your projective op but you have no right forcing your own lifestyle choice onto anyone else got it.

Say my name

Wesson Weak Plastic wrote: »

Each ingredient doesn't get its own freighter... I thought that was obvious but your argument seems to be founded on the notion that they do.

Still!!!

Would you rather eat local produce now knowing what impact you're eating has on the planet?

s7ryf3925pivug

Mutant z wrote: »

Thats your projective op but you have no right forcing your own lifestyle choice onto anyone else got it.

I disagree. It's time to start randomly poisoning beef.

Mutant z

Wesson Weak Plastic wrote: »

I disagree. It's time to start randomly poisoning beef.

What food someone choses to eat is their own business.

s7ryf3925pivug

Mutant z wrote: »

What food someone choses to eat is their own business as long as they don't force it on me i really couldn't care less.

No it's everyone's business.

s7ryf3925pivug

Wesson Weak Plastic wrote: »

I disagree. It's time to start randomly poisoning beef.

This was a joke... I'm paranoid enough to feel the need to make that explicit.

Mutant z

Wesson Weak Plastic wrote: »

No it's everyone's business.

How so?