Free public transport

IAmTheReign

magicbastarder wrote: »

and you wouldn't have to go full bore on 'free' transport. have discounted prices for off-peak travel. e.g. 50% reduction in fares if not travelling between 7am and 10am, and 4pm to 7pm, mon-fri, for example.
or, if you've a leap card, allow two bus journeys per day for free off-peak, and charge normal for the rest.

You could look at introducing discounts for off peak travel rather than free transport. Doing that though means you don't get any potential cost and hassle reductions in running the service though. Everyone still needs to have a Leap card and has to remember to top it up, and someone still needs to fix the ticket machines when they break.

Hotblack Desiato

IAmTheReign wrote: »

The people saying that something like this would cost the taxpayer seem to be missing the important fact that in most cases taxpayers are the only people paying for public transport already.

Most? What proportion of journeys are "free" and what proportion pay a fare?

Taxpayers are already paying for free public transport for over a million people in this country

Most of whom are retired, don't live near PT or are otherwise not daily commuters, so are not relevant to this discussion which is about making life better for daily commuters with increased speed/capacity.

magicbastarder

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

so are not relevant to this discussion which is about making life better for daily commuters

who decided that? seems to me the thread started as a general one about free PT.

Stephen15

howiya wrote: »

I didn’t suggest anything of the sort.

You however did say fares have remained stagnant and then went on to say especially the 13+stage fare. So you weren’t only referring to that fare.

It’s quite bizarre that people are arguing against value for money when it comes to public transport.

I'm arguing for a simplified flat fare structure. Stages 8-13 has also remained fairly flat too €2.10 back in 2013 now €2.25

IAmTheReign

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Most? What proportion of journeys are "free" and what proportion pay a fare?




Most of whom are retired, don't live near PT or are otherwise not daily commuters, so are not relevant to this discussion which is about making life better for daily commuters with increased speed/capacity.

I can't find numbers of total journeys put according to this https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/free-travel-for-nearly-1m-people-cost-77m-in-2017-469806.html 1.2 million people had access to public transport for free in 2017 and only 21% of travel pass holders rarely or never used them, meaning nearly 1 million people use them somewhat regularly. Suggesting that 1 million users of public transport are not relevant to the discussion is ridiculous.

The topic of the thread is public transport and whether or not is should be free at the point of use. It is not about increasing speed or capacity. Public transport is for everyone, not just people who use it to get in and out work. That was the entire point of my post.

IAmTheReign

IAmTheReign wrote: »

I can't find numbers of total journeys put according to this https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/free-travel-for-nearly-1m-people-cost-77m-in-2017-469806.html 1.2 million people had access to public transport for free in 2017 and only 21% of travel pass holders rarely or never used them, meaning nearly 1 million people use them somewhat regularly. Suggesting that 1 million users of public transport are not relevant to the discussion is ridiculous.

The topic of the thread is public transport and whether or not is should be free at the point of use. It is not about increasing speed or capacity. Public transport is for everyone, not just people who use it to get in and out work. That was the entire point of my post.

The idea of free public transport for all is ridiculous. A real loony left ideal. Shur, someone else will pay.
The issue of free travel for the elderly and carers, etc needs looking at. It should be confined to local travel, off peak only.

sharper

magicbastarder wrote: »

are there any stats collected about how long buses spend stationary at lights, vs. stationary at stops, vs. stationary in traffic?
in short, what's the biggest contributor to buses not moving?

It's all doable with the data available but I only ever see the source of problems used in a very general way such as the improvements delivered as part of Bus Connects.

This paper looks interesting though http://www.jctconsultancy.co.uk/Symposium/Symposium2018/PapersForDownload/Data%20Driven%20Decisions%20For%20Centralised%20Bus%20Priority%20in%20Dublin%20City%20-%20Margaret%20ODonnell%20-%20Dublin%20City%20Council.pdf

As mentioned earlier, using data visualisation tools and the SIRI-VM data from Dublin Bus,
we can map and quantify these delays. Another data set from Dublin Bus is the “Unscheduled
Stop” details, which measures stationary time for buses on route. This information can be
mapped on a per bus stop location as delays before and after a bus stop, as presented via a
dashboard in Figure 11. This clearly presents the North Quays as the most congested, and that
route experiences the most delays. Figure 11, shows that for a typical week, there were 517.8
minutes of accumulated delays for all buses servicing that stop.

magicbastarder

Deleted User wrote: »

The idea of free public transport for all is ridiculous. A real loony left ideal. Shur, someone else will pay.
The issue of free travel for the elderly and carers, etc needs looking at. It should be confined to local travel, off peak only.

according to shane ross, it would cost €600m extra a year to provide this. how much does traffic congestion cost us?

Spanish Eyes

Getting to the stage where there ought to be a citizens/commuter Assembly about all this.

Those in charge are not listening to commuters. Well Lord Ross has a driver surely, so he can avoid the great unwashed, apart from publicity shots that is.

There is so much that could be fixed relatively cheaply. But it involves massively reducing car traffic. Huh, not happening.

But BusConnects and Metro are in the pipeline, 7 -10 years hence though. Still it's positive.

My thinking is that all those employed should be able to avail of the Taxsaver scheme at 41% + PRSI as salary sacrifice, no matter what their tax rate is. Maybe even 50%. Revenue will be scratching their heads at that one, but I am sure it could be worked out somehow.

Encourage commuters to use PT. But I do realise that capacity is an issue. Still....

sharper

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

My thinking is that all those employed should be able to avail of the Taxsaver scheme at 41% + PRSI as salary sacrifice, no matter what their tax rate is. Maybe even 50%. Revenue will be scratching their heads at that one, but I am sure it could be worked out somehow.

To be honest the taxsaver scheme is already unwieldy and people find it hard to calculate how they're making savings. If you're going to apply savings beyond what people pay in tax then it's no longer a tax saving scheme and people just won't get it anyway.

One big problem with the current system is it requires the cooperation of the employer. This really shouldn't be necessary and people should be able to just apply for it and then get the saving in their tax automatically.

Another is the system is basically cover for CIE and DB to have ridiculous annual ticket prices. Without the government handing over the tax saving there would be zero benefit to having an annual ticket which is nuts when you consider you're paying upfront for a full year's worth of journeys.

Stephen15

I am against free public transport but would be personally of the opinion that public transport fares should be completely free of VAT especially considering the fare is already subsidised.

bingbong500

Eric Cartman wrote: »

and in true irish form like parents with medical cards bringing their kids to the doctor for every cough , it will be filled with a certain amount of people just abusing it because they can.

In true Irish myth maybe, like your example! Having a medical card doesn't make people go to the Dr more often. People are either the type to go for every cough or they aren't, money has little if anything to do with it.

Hotblack Desiato

bingbong500 wrote: »

In true Irish myth maybe, like your example! Having a medical card doesn't make people go to the Dr more often. People are either the type to go for every cough or they aren't, money has little if anything to do with it.

Doctors saw a large increase in GP visits for under-6s when it became free.

L1011

bingbong500 wrote: »

In true Irish myth maybe, like your example! Having a medical card doesn't make people go to the Dr more often. People are either the type to go for every cough or they aren't, money has little if anything to do with it.

Medical card and DVC holders go to the GP significantly more than those without, about 40% more. Possibly the private patients should actually be going at those times and aren't, damaging their health

devnull

bingbong500 wrote: »

In true Irish myth maybe, like your example! Having a medical card doesn't make people go to the Dr more often. People are either the type to go for every cough or they aren't, money has little if anything to do with it.

It really isn't. If you are paying for the doctor you are less likely to go since you don't want to cough up the money. I only ever go to the doctor these days if something doesn't right itself. Getting an appointment and forking out €60 even if I'll get a percentage back eventually on my insurance isn't attractive.

Many people who take jobs who are on probation only get paid for sick days if they have a doctors certificate. Many view that paying €60+ to see a doctor to get a days pay simply isn't worth it and go to work anyway as at least that way you are getting paid.

magicbastarder

magicbastarder wrote: »

according to shane ross, it would cost €600m extra a year to provide this. how much does traffic congestion cost us?

coincidentally, this is the same as the much-touted galway bypass is forecast to cost. and which is not without controversy, as many campaigners claim it would be a complete waste of money.

AndrewJRenko

L1011 wrote: »

Medical card and DVC holders go to the GP significantly more than those without, about 40% more. Possibly the private patients should actually be going at those times and aren't, damaging their health

Do you have a source for this please?

magicbastarder

wouldn't surprise me, though. those who can go to the doctor without cost, when they should do, do; those who have to pay, don't go to the doctor when they should do.
it's not a criticism of a free medical card, it's a criticism of not having a free medical card.

L1011

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Do you have a source for this please?

2013 figures are only 32%, 40% was during the depths of the crash from an equivalent set of figures:

https://nagp.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/NAGP_2017_Pre-Budget_Submission.pdf

There are cases of people taking the piss with medical cards but the bulk of extra GMS visits are visits that probably should have happened for the private patient
too but didn't due to the cost.

And before anyone tries using themselves and/or their family to claim 5.8 or 7.71 visits a year is abnormally high - AVERAGE. You're clearly quite healthy.

AndrewJRenko

L1011 wrote: »

2013 figures are only 32%, 40% was during the depths of the crash from an equivalent set of figures:

https://nagp.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/NAGP_2017_Pre-Budget_Submission.pdf

There are cases of people taking the piss with medical cards but the bulk of extra GMS visits are visits that probably should have happened for the private patient
too but didn't due to the cost.

And before anyone tries using themselves and/or their family to claim 5.8 or 7.71 visits a year is abnormally high - AVERAGE. You're clearly quite healthy.

I'm not sure a GP submission for more money is to be considered an independent source on such things. The first paper they are referencing was based on a study of six GP practices. I'm not sure I'd base too many conclusions on the Irish health system based on six GP practices. And they didn't actually count the number of private patients in each practice to assess the attendance rate - they just estimated them.


The second ESRI paper includes the following;

Using various regression methods and the same data source that we use in this paper, the estimates of the effect of medical card eligibility on GP visiting range from 1.8 extra GP visits per annum using pooled cross-section data from 1995-2001, to 1.5 extra GP visitsper annum using pooled cross-section data from 19873, 1995 and 2001 (Madden et al., 2005). Using longitudinal data, which distinguishes between current and permanent medical card eligibility and allows us to control for observed as well as unobserved variation in characteristics across the population, the effects are 0.3 and 0.6 extra GP visits per annum for current and permanent medical card eligibility respectively (Nolan, 2006).

It's not really clear what characteristics they controlled for - age, disability?



It's not a huge stretch or surprise to suggest that poorer people generally have poorer health, and therefore may well require that 0.3/0.6 extra GP visit per annum.

magicbastarder

magicbastarder wrote: »

wouldn't surprise me, though. those who can go to the doctor without cost, when they should do, do; those who have to pay, don't go to the doctor when they should do.
it's not a criticism of a free medical card, it's a criticism of not having a free medical card.

Medical card holders tend to be the elderly and those with long term illnesses, so they might indeed need more health care.

ressem

IAmTheReign wrote: »

I can't find numbers of total journeys put according to this https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/free-travel-for-nearly-1m-people-cost-77m-in-2017-469806.html 1.2 million people had access to public transport for free in 2017 and only 21% of travel pass holders rarely or never used them, meaning nearly 1 million people use them somewhat regularly. Suggesting that 1 million users of public transport are not relevant to the discussion is ridiculous.

The topic of the thread is public transport and whether or not is should be free at the point of use. It is not about increasing speed or capacity. Public transport is for everyone, not just people who use it to get in and out work. That was the entire point of my post.

Cutting the cost will, I think, do little to improve usage by those with cars and a choice.

If working commuters want to use public transport exclusively then they have to take care to restrict their choice of work and home. Isn't that the primary reason for low takeup?

To get to next week's workplace will require walking 1 hour 20 min+, leaving the house at 6 am. 31 quid per day in ticket fare, and a dice roll to determine whether I get back before 9:30pm. This is without leaving the county, between 2 towns well serviced by public transport.
Even in Dublin, public transport commuting from the west M50 to the north M50 is a horrible tiring slog, despite all the buses serving the airport.

There is so little flexibility and co-ordination between transport providers that would give commuters options.

A tap-on tap-off mobile application that counts the distance traveled and apportioned payment to the associated providers would be preferable to free travel as an investment.
Especially if it could include warnings of disruptions to stops and routes that leave us cursing and stuck for hours at a half-way point.

Disruption could be something as small as the ticket office being closed at a rail station, and the automated machine being out of change. Therefore everyone this bank holiday weekend needs to have exact change to leave the station, the machine won't even allow a choice to overpay.

bingbong500

devnull wrote: »

It really isn't. If you are paying for the doctor you are less likely to go since you don't want to cough up the money. I only ever go to the doctor these days if something doesn't right itself. Getting an appointment and forking out €60 even if I'll get a percentage back eventually on my insurance isn't attractive.

Many people who take jobs who are on probation only get paid for sick days if they have a doctors certificate. Many view that paying €60+ to see a doctor to get a days pay simply isn't worth it and go to work anyway as at least that way you are getting paid.

Anecdote is not data. Like you, I rarely go the Dr, only when it can't be avoided. Yet I have a medical card and could go whenever.

Parents take their children to drs when they have to go, fee or no fee.

Hotblack Desiato

bingbong500 wrote: »

Parents take their children to drs when they have to go, fee or no fee.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/how-are-gps-coping-with-free-care-for-under-6s-1.2606707

Out-of-hours GP services are bearing the brunt of increased attendances since the introduction of the free GP visit card for children aged under six

While the ICGP supports the free care and sees it as beneficial for patients, “it does have a major influence on capacity”, he says. For some practices, it is a major cause of them being “really stretched”.

People with medical cards attend GPs, on average, six times a year, compared with a private patient average of twice a year. Now that GP visits are free for children under six, they are likely to come more often, he agrees, but that doesn’t mean they are unnecessary visits.

It could be “appropriate” attendance, whereas before they were “inappropriately” staying away because of financial issues, says Murphy, who is a GP in south Dublin.

magicbastarder

bingbong500 wrote: »

Anecdote is not data. Like you, I rarely go the Dr, only when it can't be avoided. Yet I have a medical card and could go whenever.

Parents take their children to drs when they have to go, fee or no fee.

where's the data behind this claim?

AndrewJRenko

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/how-are-gps-coping-with-free-care-for-under-6s-1.2606707

I'm not sure that the GPs who are negotiating with the Dept for fees are the best independent source of data on this.

Hotblack Desiato

So you're saying they are just making it up?

The Dept of Health have the actual data and would be quick to contradict the GPs if they were fibbing.

Ashleigh1986

There should be nothing for free .
People don't respect free.
Oaps should pay €1 to use the bus .
To many buses driving around with just bus pass customers on them.
The Irish taxpayer is picking up the bill.
Other users should be charged €2 .
It's not a lot to get them to pay those rates .
As for free medical cards for people that have money???
Don't get me started.
There's a percentage of Irish people out there that want all the services but don't want to pay for same service .

magicbastarder

Ashleigh1986 wrote: »

Don't get me started.

too late for that.

XPS_Zero

Guys this is not a mystery, same thing happened with the NHS was created, it's been known to those of us in the social policy field for years.


When something newly free comes in there is always a surge until things settle down, it's perfectly normal. Medical cards are being gradually phased in for everyone over time anyway, all parties are signed up to this so it's going to happen. Were the only country in the developed world besides the US without universal healthcare, everyone else manages to do it yet we and the US pretend like it's impossible.


Our system is the worst of all worlds because the people paying for the system are locked out of it due to stupid means tests, whereas everywhere else you don't have all that resentment because everyone is covered like with the NHS or Medicare Canada.






Ashleigh1986 we can't have 1euro for OAPs and Disabled to use the bus because we've tried all that before, in this country it will become 2-5-10-20 then defeat the entire point.
Incidentally schemes like FT, studies indicate, saves as much or more than it spends due to savings in healthcare.


You will be in an EXTREME minority in saying nothing should be free at point of use. If we did it that way it would be a nightmare, certain things are just easier to pay for socially than as individuals.




No buses drive around with "just bus pass customers on them". THat does not happen. Ever. They are 25% of the commuters, no more.


The "medical cards for people who have money" is the way basically every other developed country does it, inc the NHS in the UK. Because it's not free, it's funded through your taxes, that way everyone is covered and you don't have to mess around with huge red tape and means testing leaving people out who need help, it's way more efficient.





You also appear to have this notion in your head that one set of people are PAYING and a totally different set of people are TAKING. Apart from a small class of about 30,000 permanent wasters (who are mostly unemployable anyway and largely delt with now through programs like Gateway) they are all one in the same.


I paid taxes from when I started work at 16 until my mid 20s when I got sick with cancer then pretty extreme depression after it, I was on Disability Allowance, Medical Card and Free Travel included. I paid into the pot then took from the pot, now I'm paying into the pot once again (though with some things still kept as overlap, like FT and the MC, since they're not really taking med cards off anyone now with the new rollout anyway). OAPs paid taxes for 40+ years. 4/5 people on disability allowance aquired their disability while working, most people on jobseekers get a job within 6months.


Also your GP does not get paid more the more times you visit as a medical card paitent, they are paid a flat fee per year to provide the service to you, they get the same no matter if you go up 6 times or 2. People will always go up more when they first get the card because they've been holding back before hand, a well understood phenomenon for those of us who specialize in this area, but easy to manipulate ppeople with if you are a tabloid writer (or radio host...)


Also studies show primary care that's free at point of use saves more long term. Lets say someone is getting a regular check up because they're not turned off by a 65euro fee. They find a bump on their breast, get it checked out it turns out to be a small stage 1 breast cancer tumor. Easily treated with breast sparing surgery and some follow up chemo to kill any lingering cells and away you go. Full treatment may cost the state 8-9000. If that patient is deterred by cost and does not come in until they feel real pain the cancer may have spread to the lymph nodes and be out into the body. It might cost 100,000 to treat that person.




Dont' make the mistake the brits did with the EU cash, measuring just money in v money out, there are synergies with this kind of stuff that's why it's done this way in every developed country.

AndrewJRenko

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

So you're saying they are just making it up?

The Dept of Health have the actual data and would be quick to contradict the GPs if they were fibbing.

How would DoH have data on GP visits of private patients?

Hotblack Desiato

They have data on the medical card patients.

Are you saying the doctors are making it up? Why wouldn't usage of a service go up when it becomes free?

AndrewJRenko

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

They have data on the medical card patients.

Are you saying the doctors are making it up? Why wouldn't usage of a service go up when it becomes free?

THey don't have anything to compare the data on medical card patients against to confirm their hypothesis that medical card patients use services more.


I read the paper that the ICGP were using. It was fairly sketchy, based on just 8 practices, with estimates on the number of private patients in the practice rather than actually measuring.


I guess the usage wouldn't go up because no-one really wants to hang out in a doctor's waiting room.

L1011

What stats would you trust? So we can find something you try not to dismiss when it challenges you

AndrewJRenko

L1011 wrote: »

What stats would you trust? So we can find something you try not to dismiss when it challenges you

Something that doesn't have the weaknesses noted above would be a great start

Thinkingaboutit

Zebra3 wrote: »

Interesting piece on free PT in the Times.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/free-public-transport-could-it-work-for-dublin-1.3768146?mode=amp

Lot to be said for it.

Free fares is a stupid idea. It results in a wasteful use of the service, and greater wear and tear from the sort who do nothing with their lives, and moreover it means another burden for the PAYE worker, not for the underclass, nor for friends of FG-FF in the cuckoo funds and tax avoiding phone or petrol, neither of whom pay much of any tax. The article is full of charity industry buzzwords. Personally, no interest in supporting the troublemaking element of the Irish underclass / children direct provision migrants being able to roam for free. Many of them have an unlimited sense of entitlement that bears no relation to what they put into this country, which is sweet fa.

Kermit.de.frog

You can openly take cocaine on the Cork - Dublin train without a care in the world (unless a randomer films it).

We can not have free public transport in a country that has such a feckless attitude to public security.

A barrier free Metro is out. Can't happen. It's absolutely laughable that such a notion could be introduced in Dublin.

The public need to understand (and I think they do) that there are trade offs to how we go about our business in this country in relation to public safety. We have no police force worthy of the name, we have a wreckless judiciary (most of the time may as well be non existent) and we have a societal tolerance for petty scumbaggery that is unmatched anywhere else in Europe. It is just not tolerated.

Our choice is to have the type of society outlined and we have to accept the consequences that come with that in terms of what we can't have.

Nobody cares enough to change it.

average_runner

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Something that doesn't have the weaknesses noted above would be a great start

All stats have a weakness, you can get a stat to back any argument up.

magicbastarder

https://twitter.com/oliver_moran/status/1139103600460947456

Last Stop

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

You can openly take cocaine on the Cork - Dublin train without a care in the world (unless a randomer films it).

We can not have free public transport in a country that has such a feckless attitude to public security.

A barrier free Metro is out. Can't happen. It's absolutely laughable that such a notion could be introduced in Dublin.

The public need to understand (and I think they do) that there are trade offs to how we go about our business in this country in relation to public safety. We have no police force worthy of the name, we have a wreckless judiciary (most of the time may as well be non existent) and we have a societal tolerance for petty scumbaggery that is unmatched anywhere else in Europe. It is just not tolerated.

Our choice is to have the type of society outlined and we have to accept the consequences that come with that in terms of what we can't have.

Nobody cares enough to change it.

Payment on Luas is typically over 90% and the same goes for the honestly box water at Dublin airport so to say we can’t have it is wrong.

I agree that security is an issue but I think we are on the way towards transport police or at least a reformed traffic corp.

I am against free public transport as studies have shown it does little to get people out of their cars and instead attracts those who would have previously walked or cycled... using capacity which we don’t have.

What would be a better solution would be to expand the Taxsaver scheme to all leap card transactions, dublinbike membership and tolls like M3 on the way to park +ride as well as parking fees at p+r. This would offer a 40% saving vs driving.

Hotblack Desiato

magicbastarder wrote: »

https://twitter.com/oliver_moran/status/1139103600460947456

It'd still a stupid idea to spend that money on free PT. Increase capacity instead.

Last Stop wrote: »

Payment on Luas is typically over 90% and the same goes for the honestly box water at Dublin airport so to say we can’t have it is wrong.

Luas doesn't have nice dry warm underground stations and tunnels for winos and derelicts to hang about in.

What would be a better solution would be to expand the Taxsaver scheme to all leap card transactions, dublinbike membership and tolls like M3 on the way to park +ride as well as parking fees at p+r. This would offer a 40% saving vs driving.

Agreed on leapcard and dublinbike, subsidising P+R just encourages ever farther flung commutes though.

Sam Russell

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Agreed on leapcard and dublinbike, subsidising P+R just encourages ever farther flung commutes though.

If a commuter lives in rural area but near a P&R, then they either drive to the P&R or drive all the way to work. Either make the P&R attractive or make parking at work (assuming CC) punitive.

The attractive P&R is better as it is easier to serve than distributed rural locations.

AndrewJRenko

average_runner wrote: »

All stats have a weakness, you can get a stat to back any argument up.

You should at least credit the author when you use a quote like that;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tzfl1wTemM

Zebra3

Not free PT, but a euro a day annual ticket is spreading.

Interesting article covering pros and cons.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/09/vienna-euro-a-day-public-transport-berlin-365-annual-ticket

L1011

Suspect the next fare determination here will bring Dublin all modes down to about 1900 - it's 2050 currently. That shows the gap that'd have to be made up

That the state subsidises those tickets for higher rate taxpayers quite significantly doesn't make them much cheaper on those on low incomes. Not that I want that discount to go away for me of course :pac:

Emme

Every morning peak time trains from rural Ireland are full when they get to stations like Carlow and Monasterevin and other rural towns where people have a commute of an hour of more.

Why? An awful lot of the seats are taken up by the sacred cows of Ireland, able bodied free travel pass holders who have the energy to play golf and go hiking at weekends. Many commuters would be too exhausted to do this even if they had the time and money.

People who pay thousands for an annual ticket have to stand for an hour or more while the sacred cows who paid no more than 5 euro to travel (if they booked a seat) have a restful journey. I am sick of my taxes going to prop up this system which only exists to secure the grey vote.

The FTP used to be off peak only for those who passed a means test. A fair system would be half price tickets for those who do not pass the means test. Workers who do long commutes do not do it by choice, if they could afford it they would live closer to work.

Nobody else should travel for free unless they have a disability or are children small enough to fit on a parent's lap. Otherwise they should pay at least half price per journey.

The UK system should be used. Free local travel only.

magicbastarder

pensioners choose to travel on rail when it's full?
anyone i know who is not heading in to a job is sensible enough to avoid peak hours in the morning. i suspect the issue is not nearly as pronounced as suggested.

Emme

magicbastarder wrote: »

pensioners choose to travel on rail when it's full?
anyone i know who is not heading in to a job is sensible enough to avoid peak hours in the morning. i suspect the issue is not nearly as pronounced as suggested.

Believe me it is. Fair play to them for being up with the lark in their retirement, I envy them their stamina. The working commuters who have to stand could do with some of it badly.

The train is probably not full when these people get on in Waterford, Limerick, Thurles or wherever but it fills up along the way and when it gets to the commuter stops it is full and the permanently exhausted tax slaves have to stand.

Sam Russell

Emme wrote: »

Every morning peak time trains from rural Ireland are full when they get to stations like Carlow and Monasterevin and other rural towns where people have a commute of an hour of more.

Why? An awful lot of the seats are taken up by the sacred cows of Ireland, able bodied free travel pass holders who have the energy to play golf and go hiking at weekends. Many commuters would be too exhausted to do this even if they had the time and money.

People who pay thousands for an annual ticket have to stand for an hour or more while the sacred cows who paid no more than 5 euro to travel (if they booked a seat) have a restful journey. I am sick of my taxes going to prop up this system which only exists to secure the grey vote.

The FTP used to be off peak only for those who passed a means test. A fair system would be half price tickets for those who do not pass the means test. Workers who do long commutes do not do it by choice, if they could afford it they would live closer to work.

Nobody else should travel for free unless they have a disability or are children small enough to fit on a parent's lap. Otherwise they should pay at least half price per journey.

The FTP is issued to those disabled and those over 66. It is also used by their spouse if travelling with them. Now those over 70 need a medical cert to obtain a driving licence, so it could be considered a right that they be given a FTP if they are put off the road. Others get the FTP through disability which is only right.

It would be reasonable to limit the use of the FTP to post 9:30 am but there may need to be exceptions if, say, a train leaves at 9:15 am and the next one is not until 12:30. I'm not sure how that can be solved.

However, highly subsidised public transport makes a lot of sense if it cuts down on congestion in cities and towns.