Free public transport

magicbastarder

also, if the main objection to the notion of free public transport is 'because junkies', i suspect we're not looking at the issue with any rigour.

for example, a simple solution could be four free trips per day on leap card. after that, you pay. that would probably cover a considerable majority of people who have a pass anyway, and would not allow people to surf the luas/bus all day.

cgcsb

I think people are confused about what 'the problem' is. The problem isn't that the cost of public transport is prohibitive or that not enough people use it.

The problem is that there is not enough PT capacity to accommodate existing users, much less accommodate new ones
If you have a car and free work place parking, you'll drive, no matter what PT is on offer.
If PT were free the first impact this would have is moving people who cycle and walk onto PT, which is counter productive given the limited capacity.

Emme

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Free public transport doesn't do anything good for working commuters, apart from a relatively small saving (and tney already get tax relief on taxsaver tickets.)

The saving from free public transport for working commuters would be significantly more than the pittance of relief they get on taxsaver tickets, particularly those on the lower rate of tax. Even if public transport were free those who have to drive to the bus/train station would still have to pay parking costs so it wouldn't be completely free for them.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

What it does do is enable undesirables to take advantage of a public resource to the detriment of those who contribute to society.

I agree but junkies do add a bit of colour to the red luas

Seriously you are right about free public transport taking advantage of a public resource. OAPs are well behaved and pleasant and have contributed to the system. However the introduction of free travel all the time rather than at off-peak times significantly contributes to congestion on public transport at peak commuting times. Last week an entire train carriage was taken up by members of a 65 plus women's group on the 17.35 Heuston to Waterford. This meant the train was more congested than usual at the outset. Imagine a carriage full of junkies and they mayhem they would cause! :eek:

cgcsb wrote: »

If you have a car and free work place parking, you'll drive, no matter what PT is on offer.

I have a car and free workplace parking but I would rather brave public transport than the hell of the N7 particularly at the moment with the snail's pace of work in progress.

cgcsb wrote: »

If PT were free the first impact this would have is moving people who cycle and walk onto PT, which is counter productive given the limited capacity.

I don't agree. I used to live within cycling distance of work. Nothing then would have induced me to take public transport to work, even if it had been free. Many people who walk and cycle choose to do so for health reasons instead of sitting on public transport.

Also public transport routes may not be convenient for those who walk and cycle.

piplip87

Give emoyees who need to commute leap cards, simalier to the Taxsaver scheme but with a 75% tax credit. Reduce fares and cut out companion passed as part of the free travel unless the person has a disability that requires somebody else to travel with them.


Routes and services will also have to change to suit those who use the service daily. A service from Balanchardstown centre to Sandyford would save plenty of M3 commuters the track into the city or save many others from Driving.

Thrashssacre

Free transport just won’t work in Ireland the capacity just isn’t there and I wouldn’t trust any party in this country to invest the money thats needed to bring it up to scratch, small improvements should be what is focused on starting with the bus connect plan and electrification of Dublin commuter rail lines.

cgcsb

Emme wrote: »

I have a car and free workplace parking but I would rather brave public transport than the hell of the N7 particularly at the moment with the snail's pace of work in progress.

I don't agree. I used to live within cycling distance of work. Nothing then would have induced me to take public transport to work, even if it had been free. Many people who walk and cycle choose to do so for health reasons instead of sitting on public transport.

Also public transport routes may not be convenient for those who walk and cycle.

While that's great, and good on you, this is personal anecdote. Modelling shows the Dublin commuter is highly cost insensitive, as one would expect from a City that has already 70% suburb-city sustainable mode commuting.

cgcsb

Once BusConnects, MetroLink and expanded DART network are in place, I'd expect the focus to shift towards the Oslo model, which penalises driving by effectively removing all street parking, bar loading, ev charging and some disabled parking. The multi storeys must also be tackled, starting with BTs and Arnotts, more space should be handed over to walking and cycling. A new Tallaght-Beaumont metro and new luas lines should also be invested in. With a bit of momentum, Dublin can be the new Copenhagen. We spent so long aping what was standard practice in provincial parts of the UK, time to move on.

Thrashssacre

cgcsb wrote: »

Once BusConnects, MetroLink and expanded DART network are in place, I'd expect the focus to shift towards the Oslo model, which penalises driving by effectively removing all street parking, bar loading, ev charging and some disabled parking. The multi storeys must also be tackled, starting with BTs and Arnotts, more space should be handed over to walking and cycling. A new Tallaght-Beaumont metro and new luas lines should also be invested in. With a bit of momentum, Dublin can be the new Copenhagen. We spent so long aping what was standard practice in provincial parts of the UK, time to move on.

I wouldn’t be confident of any of them all three have been delayed and redesigned at least once

cgcsb

Thrashssacre wrote: »

I wouldn’t be confident of any of them all three have been delayed and redesigned at least once

Probably. Sure look we can just move to the Middle East for a while, wait for Ireland to implode, come home and start again.

bk

I'm not saying we should. But if we were to move to free travel, then you'd want to get rid of the Leap cards and ticket machines.

You'd at least save on the cost of those and you would benefit from speed up dwell times. You could even start movign to 3/4 door bus operation.

But yes, I don't think we have the capacity for this at the moment. The buses/trains/trams are already full.

Perhaps we could use the eventual move to congestion charging to do this. Use the funding from congestion charging to give free travel, expand numbers of buses, etc. and it would look good to help ease in congestion charging. So not such a wild idea from that perspective.

magicbastarder

cgcsb wrote: »

If you have a car and free work place parking, you'll drive, no matter what PT is on offer.

somewhat strongly stated, no? i know several people who take PT even though they've a car and free parking, me included. i did it for years.

cgcsb

magicbastarder wrote: »

somewhat strongly stated, no? i know several people who take PT even though they've a car and free parking, me included. i did it for years.

I could drive also, but I cycle every day. But the general case remains.

Stephen15

Free public transport is a waste of money. The money spent making public transport free would be better spent on improving public transport. It is not going to take people out of their car or af least enough to make a difference on carbon emissions. What will work is Metrolink, Dart Underground and Expansion and Bus Connects. It would probably cost a few billion to do think about how that money could be better on public transport.

Squatter

newirishman wrote: »

There is no capacity left at rush hours in Dublin’s public transport system, as anyone knows how still dares to use it. The system is overall well crap.

What exactly is the “free”public transport going to solve?

Same as "free" water - the gobsh1tes, parasites and freeloaders will rejoice and the more responsible citizens will thrust their heads even more deeply into their hands.

LionelNashe

What we could do is pick one commuter corridor where there’s a lot of congestion at the moment, and trial free public transport on it for 12 months. Because it’s only one corridor, it should be possible to lay on the extra capacity that’s needed. The psychological impact of paying nothing for your commute for a year would make a lot of people switch immediately. A downside is that the wealthy individuals who wouldn’t even notice the cost of fuelling and driving their big cars, and wouldn’t switch, would benefit the most by everyone else’s actions.

Red Silurian

If we make public transport free at rush hour only (the times when people are going to/from work) that would take a lot of cars off the road, other public transport users, such as tourists etc, would still pay the standard fare

Stephen15

colmtheperson wrote: »

If we make public transport free at rush hour only (the times when people are going to/from work) that would take a lot of cars off the road, other public transport users, such as tourists etc, would still pay the standard fare

The people who it will push on to public transport would be people who walk and cycle not people who drive so people who live near where they work. That would likely mean full buses and trains for people travelling longer distances as the bus or train will be full of people only going 3 or 4 stops on a bus or 1 or 2 stops on the Luas or the DART.

I noticed this when they make the child leap card free over the summer lot's of kids getting on the bus but only going a short distance that they would probably walk if the bus wasn't free.

Varta

In twenty years time most commuters in Dublin will be using public transport, like it or not. At that point the widened roads that they are planning to tear up the city to create won't be necessary. So, instead of wasting millions creating these concrete and tarmac city highways, we should put the money into creating free public transport.

sharper

Varta wrote: »

In twenty years time most commuters in Dublin will be using public transport, like it or not. At that point the widened roads that they are planning to tear up the city to create won't be necessary. So, instead of wasting millions creating these concrete and tarmac city highways, we should put the money into creating free public transport.

The first thing you need to do before you create more demand for public transport is to create a gap between current capacity and current usage. Improvements to road infrastructure are needed to create capacity.

devnull

Varta wrote: »

In twenty years time most commuters in Dublin will be using public transport, like it or not. At that point the widened roads that they are planning to tear up the city to create won't be necessary. So, instead of wasting millions creating these concrete and tarmac city highways, we should put the money into creating free public transport.

It won't cost millions. It will cost billions.

LeinsterDub

devnull wrote: »

It won't cost millions. It will cost billions.

So will the EU carbon and air quality fines.

Hotblack Desiato

Varta wrote: »

In twenty years time most commuters in Dublin will be using public transport, like it or not. At that point the widened roads that they are planning to tear up the city to create won't be necessary.

You still need a bus lane, a general lane, a cycle lane and a footpath in each direction

What Dublin desperately needs is a metro system - not half a line to be built "sometime, maybe" - but instead the vital national infrastructural necessity of giving bachelor farmers better access to Pornhub gets priority. You couldn't make it up.

Varta

Agree on the metro but I don't see why separate lanes will be required. People need to open their eyes, in twenty years time or possibly way sooner there will be precious few cars making regular journeys into the city. It has to happen and it will happen, so let's just speed it up with free public transport, start in earnest on a metro and forget about widening roads that we won't require.

Hotblack Desiato

The alternative is to keep the roads the same and introduce heavy congestion charging.

Bus journey times are too slow and unpredictable because of private cars. That is the problem, not fares.

sharper

Varta wrote: »

Agree on the metro but I don't see why separate lanes will be required. People need to open their eyes, in twenty years time or possibly way sooner there will be precious few cars making regular journeys into the city. It has to happen and it will happen, so let's just speed it up with free public transport, start in earnest on a metro and forget about widening roads that we won't require.

I'm really confused here. Public transport (today) is at max capacity during peak times. How does making it free help anything? How do we improve capacity without work on the roads that public transport uses?

devnull

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The alternative is to keep the roads the same and introduce heavy congestion charging.

Bus journey times are too slow and unpredictable because of private cars. That is the problem, not fares.

Dwell time is a major problem though, more than traffic a lot of the time, and full use of two doors and removal of driver interaction would mean buses spent seconds waiting at busy stops and not minutes.

Varta

But if there were no fares more people would use public transport. Congestion charges may not be necessary with free public transport and bus priority. At the moment there are many situations whereby a bus must yield to traffic to get back into the flow. Buses should always have priority and traffic should yield. It would require nothing more than a rule change. As I said, a near car-free city is inevitable, especially at peak times, so people are going to have to adapt whether they like it or not.

magicbastarder

sharper wrote: »

I'm really confused here. Public transport (today) is at max capacity during peak times. How does making it free help anything? How do we improve capacity without work on the roads that public transport uses?

obviously there's going to be an interplay between passenger load, and congestion/dwell time issues, but say for example free travel *was* a success at enticing more people onto the buses.
general congestion could ease due to fewer car drivers, and dwell time might also ease. so if (and it's a big if; the interplay between all the factors is hellishly complex, i suspect) you got 10% more people onto the buses, but the buses were able to move 15% faster between the terminuses, you could see the passenger capacity increase.

Stephen15

devnull wrote: »

It won't cost millions. It will cost billions.

Exactly and those billions could be much better spent on making actual improvements to public transport which would entice far more people out of cars and onto to public transport than making public transport free would. Free public transport doesn't mean good quality and I would gladly pay for good quality public transport.

sharper

magicbastarder wrote: »

obviously there's going to be an interplay between passenger load, and congestion/dwell time issues, but say for example free travel *was* a success at enticing more people onto the buses.
general congestion could ease due to fewer car drivers, and dwell time might also ease. so if (and it's a big if; the interplay between all the factors is hellishly complex, i suspect) you got 10% more people onto the buses, but the buses were able to move 15% faster between the terminuses, you could see the passenger capacity increase.

I agree the interplay is complex but if you consider a bus running length of 60 minutes it would have to be one hell of a saving to translate into even a single extra journey during the peak period.

It might well get people where they want to go faster but it won't get more people there.

Varta

Stephen15 wrote: »

Exactly and those billions could be much better spent on making actual improvements to public transport which would entice far more people out of cars and onto to public transport than making public transport free would. Free public transport doesn't mean good quality and I would gladly pay for good quality public transport.

Why not both? Improved service and free! Free public transport isn't about saving passengers money, it's about making things simpler and easier, and enticing people out of their cars. No fiddling about with cards/money/whatever and no telling the driver where you are going. All of that slows the transport down quite a bit. And as for paying for it, just think of all the money we wouldn't be sending abroad to buy cars and oil. One thing I find interesting is where I used to have discussions with people about public versus private transport, now it's always about how can we make public transport better. Change is coming.

Stephen15

Varta wrote: »

Why not both? Improved service and free! Free public transport isn't about saving passengers money, it's about making things simpler and easier, and enticing people out of their cars. No fiddling about with cards/money/whatever and no telling the driver where you are going. All of that slows the transport down quite a bit. And as for paying for it, just think of all the money we wouldn't be sending abroad to buy cars and oil. One thing I find interesting is where I used to have discussions with people about public versus private transport, now it's always about how can we make public transport better. Change is coming.

Well we have a lot of work to do getting public transport up to scratch before we can start looking at making it FOC.

howiya

Fares should be frozen or reduced but not free.

2011’s €1.60 fare is now €2.25. 40% increase in less than 8 years.

And it will increase again this year to bring the €2.25 and €2.50 fares into the one fare.

devnull

howiya wrote: »

Fares should be frozen or reduced but not free.

2011’s €1.60 fare is now €2.25. 40% increase in less than 8 years.

And it will increase again this year to bring the €2.25 and €2.50 fares into the one fare.

I could also hand pick a figure and a timeframe to show that fares have come down in the last few years as well - there are winners and losers for the fare changes in general.

howiya

devnull wrote: »

I could also hand pick a figure and a timeframe to show that fares have come down in the last few years as well - there are winners and losers for the fare changes in general.

What Dublin Bus fare has decreased over the same time period?

Had a quick look myself. The only Dublin Bus fares that decreased over the same period are the outer suburban fares. So far more losers than winners.

devnull

howiya wrote: »

What Dublin Bus fare has decreased over the same time period?

Re-read my post, I never said the same time period, I said over a period of a few years.

As the NTA have been simplifying the fare system in the last few years, to do this gradually to avoid hitting farebox revenue, they've been increasing the fare you describe whilst also reducing the fare above it which will continue in the next lot when I would say both fares will be merged together. That is what they did with the child fare over a couple of years to the point where it is now flat rate.

Unfortunately if you are going to merge fare bands then some peoples price will go up and some peoples price will go down, that's just the way it will always be but the maximum price anyone has to pay for a single journey coming down is very much a good thing if you ask me.

AndrewJRenko

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

You still need a bus lane, a general lane, a cycle lane and a footpath in each direction

.

Oh Jaysus don't forget the feckin trees.

But if you have to squeeze out one of the above, the general lane with all the 80% empty cars would be a good starting point.

Stephen15

howiya wrote: »

Fares should be frozen or reduced but not free.

2011’s €1.60 fare is now €2.25. 40% increase in less than 8 years.

And it will increase again this year to bring the €2.25 and €2.50 fares into the one fare.

The €2.25 was divided into a 4-7 stage fare which was €1.60 and a 8-13 stage fare which was €1.80 so you are somewhat incorrect in saying that what was €1.60 in 2011 is now €2.25.

The fare increase for some paying the €2.25 fare is the price that is paid for the convience of removing a large amount of the driver interaction that currently exists reducing dwell times and hence journey times. But then again I would like to see a €2 flat fare being introduced across the board.

howiya

Stephen15 wrote: »

The €2.25 was divided into a 4-7 stage fare which was €1.60 and a 8-13 stage fare which was €1.80 so you are somewhat incorrect in saying that what was €1.60 in 2011 is now €2.25.

The fare increase for some paying the €2.25 fare is the price that is paid for the convience of removing a large amount of the driver interaction that currently exists reducing dwell times and hence journey times. But then again I would like to see a €2 flat fare being introduced across the board.

I’ll rephrase it for you. My journey is 6 stages so I’m not incorrect. I’m comparing the price of the same journey.

Increasing the fare to €2.25 hasn’t made any difference to dwell time. You still need to interact with the driver, the same as you did when the fare was €2.15. Most people getting on in my area interact with the driver.

I think a €2 flat fare is reasonable. As I said in my first post I said fares should be reduced or frozen. I’d be happy with fares not increasing any further.

Stephen15

howiya wrote: »

I’ll rephrase it for you. My journey is 6 stages so I’m not incorrect. I’m comparing the price of the same journey.

Increasing the fare to €2.25 hasn’t made any difference to dwell time. You still need to interact with the driver, the same as you did when the fare was €2.15. Most people getting on in my area interact with the driver.

I think a €2 flat fare is reasonable. As I said in my first post I said fares should be reduced or frozen. I’d be happy with fares not increasing any further.

That's why I said you were somewhat incorrect not fully incorrect. Also I was referring to the €2.50 and €2.25 fare bands are merged as a flat fare which will make a difference to dwell times as all validation will be done on the right hand validator not the the 2018 fare revisions when the 2.15 fare was increased to 2.25.

Fares have actually remained relatively stagnant since Leap has been introduced especially the 13+ stage fare band apart from the fares which have been merged into the same band over over the years. This I will admit has more so benefitted people making longer journies by bus as these fares have remained more or less the same as they were back in 2012.

howiya

Stephen15 wrote: »

That's why I said you were somewhat incorrect not fully incorrect. Also I was referring to the €2.50 and €2.25 fare bands are merged as a flat fare which will make a difference to dwell times as all validation will be done on the right hand validator not the the 2018 fare revisions when the 2.15 fare was increased to 2.25.

Fares have actually remained relatively stagnant since Leap has been introduced especially the 13+ stage fare band apart from the fares which have been merged into the same band over over the years. This I will admit has more so benefitted people making longer journies by bus as these fares have remained more or less the same as they were back in 2012.

How am I somewhat incorrect? A bus journey that cost €1.60 in 2011 now costs €2.25. Which part is somewhat incorrect?

A 40% increase in a period of low inflation is relatively stagnant?

Longer journeys do appear to be better value in comparison. I guess I should stay on the bus longer than I need to in order to get value for money.

Stephen15

howiya wrote: »

How am I somewhat incorrect? A bus journey that cost €1.60 in 2011 now costs €2.25. Which part is somewhat incorrect?

A 40% increase in a period of low inflation is relatively stagnant?

Longer journeys do appear to be better value in comparison. I guess I should stay on the bus longer than I need to in order to get value for money.

You suggested in your original post that the €1.60 was €1.60 across the board when it was actually divided into two fare categories a €1.60 and €1.80 fare band back in 2011.

I was referring to the 13+ stage fare which was €2.40 in 2012 and is now €2.50 in 2018 which is hardly a huge increase. Again this is something that is on an individual case by case basis but it sounds like you have been unlucky in the series of fare revisions since 2011, I for one can say I'm paying more or less the same for a trip into the city centre which is a 13+ stage journey as I was back in 2012.

Of course there is going to be some winners and losers when it comes to moving to a simplified fare structure and towards a flat fare model.

Hotblack Desiato

devnull wrote: »

Dwell time is a major problem though, more than traffic a lot of the time, and full use of two doors and removal of driver interaction would mean buses spent seconds waiting at busy stops and not minutes.

You don't need to abolish fares to do that.

Varta wrote: »

But if there were no fares more people would use public transport. Congestion charges may not be necessary with free public transport and bus priority. At the moment there are many situations whereby a bus must yield to traffic to get back into the flow. Buses should always have priority and traffic should yield. It would require nothing more than a rule change. As I said, a near car-free city is inevitable, especially at peak times, so people are going to have to adapt whether they like it or not.

This is a naive analysis. The problem is not that buses are going around the city half-empty because fares are too high. And saying a car-free city is inevitable is all pie in the sky without a practical means of bringing that about.

Once you have free fares then what? Reduced congestion means more incentive to take your private car, not less. The only way to counteract this is (quite a high level of) congestion charging. You can make the disincentive of a congestion charge much higher than the incentive of a free fare would be. e.g. if a return PT trip is a max of €5 a day, make the congestion charge €10 a day and invest the money in PT capacity.

What about free fares giving an incentive to walkers/cyclists to give up their sustainable mode for free PT? We don't want to incentivise that and it'll only make the capacity problem worse, while losing the population health benefits of walking/cycling.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

But if you have to squeeze out one of the above, the general lane with all the 80% empty cars would be a good starting point.

How do you do that without also eliminating all commercial traffic, etc?

magicbastarder

sharper wrote: »

I agree the interplay is complex but if you consider a bus running length of 60 minutes it would have to be one hell of a saving to translate into even a single extra journey during the peak period.

It might well get people where they want to go faster but it won't get more people there.

are there any stats collected about how long buses spend stationary at lights, vs. stationary at stops, vs. stationary in traffic?
in short, what's the biggest contributor to buses not moving?

IAmTheReign

The people saying that something like this would cost the taxpayer seem to be missing the important fact that in most cases taxpayers are the only people paying for public transport already. Taxpayers are already paying for free public transport for over a million people in this country, removing the need to pay at the point of use just streamlines the process of using and administering public transport. It could potentially have multiple advantages;

Quicker loading and unloading times, leading to quicker commutes
No need to administer payment networks like Leap
Reduced maintenance costs as no need for repairs to Leap terminals, train turnstiles, pay stations at Luas and Dart stops etc.
No need to pay for ticket inspectors
Reduced burden on civil service as they no longer need to take care of the massive workload for processing travel pass applications

I think anyone suggesting that making public transport free would cause a massive spike in demand during peak times is crazy. Nobody is going to get on a packed bus or Luas because it's free unless they need to actually get on. What it could do however is incentive people to get out of the car and use public transport more at off peak hours. Want to head to the city on a saturday for shopping? No need to drive and deal with finding a place to park when you can hop on a free bus. Visiting a mate in Cork? Grab the train and no need to worry about being too hung over to drive the next day.

We need to move away from a model where driving is the first choice for people and that doesn't just apply to getting in and out of work. The morning commute is so ingrained in peoples routine that it's probably the hardest part to change but free public transport could encourage people to ditch the cars for everything else. Once using public transport has been normalised it becomes much easier politically to justify spending more on it. There's an attitude in Ireland where public transport is considered a second class mode of transport, a necessary evil that has to be put up with in order to get to work, rather than a convenient alternative to driving. We need to try and do things to change that idea.

howiya

Stephen15 wrote: »

You suggested in your original post that the €1.60 was €1.60 across the board when it was actually divided into two fare categories a €1.60 and €1.80 fare band back in 2011.

I was referring to the 13+ stage fare which was €2.40 in 2012 and is now €2.50 in 2018 which is hardly a huge increase. Again this is something that is on an individual case by case basis but it sounds like you have been unlucky in the series of fare revisions since 2011, I for one can say I'm paying more or less the same for a trip into the city centre which is a 13+ stage journey as I was back in 2012.

Of course there is going to be some winners and losers when it comes to moving to a simplified fare structure and towards a flat fare model.

I didn’t suggest anything of the sort.

You however did say fares have remained stagnant and then went on to say especially the 13+stage fare. So you weren’t only referring to that fare.

It’s quite bizarre that people are arguing against value for money when it comes to public transport.

magicbastarder

IAmTheReign wrote: »

What it could do however is incentive people to get out of the car and use public transport more at off peak hours. Want to head to the city on a saturday for shopping? No need to drive and deal with finding a place to park when you can hop on a free bus. Visiting a mate in Cork? Grab the train and no need to worry about being too hung over to drive the next day.

and you wouldn't have to go full bore on 'free' transport. have discounted prices for off-peak travel. e.g. 50% reduction in fares if not travelling between 7am and 10am, and 4pm to 7pm, mon-fri, for example.
or, if you've a leap card, allow two bus journeys per day for free off-peak, and charge normal for the rest.

Is public transport free anyway in the world?

devnull

magicbastarder wrote: »

are there any stats collected about how long buses spend stationary at lights, vs. stationary at stops, vs. stationary in traffic? in short, what's the biggest contributor to buses not moving?

Depends on the route I'd say. Dwell time was a major issue on cross city routes since when I took the bus regularly to work, but certainly isn't as much of a big issue on the kind of routes that Go-Ahead are running for example.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

You don't need to abolish fares to do that.

I know, I never said we did

L1011

Deleted User wrote: »

Is public transport free anyway in the world?

For locals in Tallinn for quite some time now. Requires ID albeit rarely checked.