6n 2019 Ireland v England Build Up Thread

who_me

vapor trails wrote: »

I'm such an Ageist and I'll admit that straight away. That said Best is starting to throw in a few 5/10 performances recently. His throwing has become a bit more miss than hit. With Cronin dodgy in this facet of the game as well, It's a part of our game that could easily fall apart. If we had a better thrower I think it would open up our 2nd-row options a bit more in terms of selection. If Tadgh Beirne was fit for this game his performances for Munster should probably merit a start now in an Irish top.

Lineout throwing should surely one of the skills least affected by age though... I think he's always been prone to one or two poor throws a game.

It's not Cronin's best area either, and if you look at the options from Munster - our defensive lineout is one of the best, but on our own throw-in it's been consistently iffy this season. Not that everything in a lineout is the hooker's fault, but still... not sure which is Ireland's "rock-solid in the lineout" hooker option.

typhoony

Clegg wrote: »

Most Irish outlets are saying Henshaw will start at 15. It's an odd move and completely goes against everything we know about Schmidt from the last 8 years in Ireland.

He's thrown the odd curve ball like bringing Payne and Henderson in from the cold to start against England. But they were slotting onto positions thry regularly played in. Henshaw hasn't bene a fullback in years. It's a big risk. And if he takes it we'll then have to reassess our thoughts on the Six Nations as a whole. We may see far more experimentation.

only small risk, has made very few mistakes at full-back even if he it's been a while playing the position

The Rape of Lucretia

No mystery really. Joe is always right as we know, just the rest of us are step or two behind him.

So we can reverse engineer his thinking with the following :
+ its a World Cup year
+ Larmo is flash and entertaining, but not yet a full System Joe cog in the machine
+ Conway is seen as wing cover primarily
+ BobbyK is one damn good looking dude which does give him an edge, but needs to find form. Will play later 6N games
+ Addison is more in his plans as backup wing centre and will start future 6N games
= start Henshaw against England at fb.

ClanofLams wrote: »

It’s far far more likely that Schmidt thinks this is the right choice for the team than it is that this one change represents Schmidt suddenly willing to disregard the 6N and experimentation is gonna follow.
The leaps of logic on here recently over some decisions (Carty ahead of Byrne) or possible decisions in this case are bizarre.

Everything makes sense in the light of the WC being everything and the 6N being just a stepping stone to that.

troyzer

It would be a huge coup if he had a great game at 15.

If he doesn't? Worst case scenario you have Larmour on the bench after half an hour who can sub on for Earls and play fullback, push Henshaw to the centre and push Ringrose out to the wing.

You'll still get to see combinations and it's probably a safer bet overall.

Jewelers

troyzer wrote: »

It would be a huge coup if he had a great game at 15.

If he doesn't? Worst case scenario you have Larmour on the bench after half an hour who can sub on for Earls and play fullback, push Henshaw to the centre and push Ringrose out to the wing.

You'll still get to see combinations and it's probably a safer bet overall.

ring rose to the wing, are you serious ?

troyzer

Jewelers wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

It would be a huge coup if he had a great game at 15.

If he doesn't? Worst case scenario you have Larmour on the bench after half an hour who can sub on for Earls and play fullback, push Henshaw to the centre and push Ringrose out to the wing.

You'll still get to see combinations and it's probably a safer bet overall.

ring rose to the wing, are you serious ?

Yeah? He's played on the wing before.

Former Former

typhoony wrote: »

only small risk, has made very few mistakes at full-back even if he it's been a while playing the position

It's a huge risk.

Huge reward possibly, but this is a serious gamble.

If it's true.

Jewelers

troyzer wrote: »

Yeah? He's played on the wing before.

ah i would say he will put POM out on the wing instead hes played there before

troyzer

Jewelers wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

Yeah? He's played on the wing before.

ah i would say he will put POM out on the wing instead hes played there before

No he hasn't.

Ringrose has actually played Leinster games on the wing before. As in selected and started on the wing. It's his secondary position.

Moving from centre to wing isn't a huge deal anyway once you have the wheels. There's a reason why so many wings and centres also play the other position.

Jewelers

troyzer wrote: »

No he hasn't.

Ringrose has actually played Leinster games on the wing before. As in selected and started on the wing. It's his secondary position.

Moving from centre to wing isn't a huge deal anyway once you have the wheels. There's a reason why so many wings and centres also play the other position.

https://www.the42.ie/ireland-lose-italy-history-rugby-1919226-Feb2015/

troyzer

Jewelers wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

No he hasn't.

Ringrose has actually played Leinster games on the wing before. As in selected and started on the wing. It's his secondary position.

Moving from centre to wing isn't a huge deal anyway once you have the wheels. There's a reason why so many wings and centres also play the other position.

https://www.the42.ie/ireland-lose-italy-history-rugby-1919226-Feb2015/

He was forced onto the wing for part of the match due to mid game injury in a game years ago against Italy. How is that even remotely similar to a back like Ringrose switching from centre to wing as a tactical replacement?

Podge_irl

troyzer wrote: »

He was forced onto the wing for part of the match due to mid game injury in a game years ago against Italy. How is that even remotely similar to a back like Ringrose switching from centre to wing as a tactical replacement?

your scenario is utterly bizarre and will never happen. The whole point of having a versatile person on the bench is to avoid massive rotation. You are suggesting that if Henshaw doesn't work at 15 that Earls gets replaced? Convoluted doesn't even begin to describe it

troyzer

Podge_irl wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

He was forced onto the wing for part of the match due to mid game injury in a game years ago against Italy. How is that even remotely similar to a back like Ringrose switching from centre to wing as a tactical replacement?

your scenario is utterly bizarre and will never happen. The whole point of having a versatile person on the bench is to avoid massive rotation. You are suggesting that if Henshaw doesn't work at 15 that Earls gets replaced? Convoluted doesn't even begin to describe it

Well I suppose you could take one of your best players off the pitch instead in Henshaw.

Podge_irl

troyzer wrote: »

Well I suppose you could take one of your best players off the pitch instead in Henshaw.

Yeah. That would make about a thousand times more sense then taking off Earls and having three positional switches so that half the backline isn't playing where they trained.

troyzer

Podge_irl wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

Well I suppose you could take one of your best players off the pitch instead in Henshaw.

Yeah. That would make about a thousand times more sense then taking off Earls and having three positional switches so that half the backline isn't playing where they trained.

Well, one. Ringrose on the wing.

Podge_irl

troyzer wrote: »

Well, one. Ringrose on the wing.

Henshaw to centre and Larmour to full back and Ringrose to wing (and Earls inexplicably to bench)?

troyzer

Podge_irl wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

Well, one. Ringrose on the wing.

Henshaw to centre and Larmour to full back and Ringrose to wing (and Earls inexplicably to bench)?

Yeah, only one of those is playing out of position?

Podge_irl

troyzer wrote: »

Yeah, only one of those is playing out of position?

It is still three positional changes. Players train to play in a certain position during the week and making a huge number of changes mid-match is never, ever going to be the first option.

troyzer

Podge_irl wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

Yeah, only one of those is playing out of position?

It is still three positional changes. Players train to play in a certain position during the week and making a huge number of changes mid-match is never, ever going to be the first option.

Who said that they're not training for that eventuality? I'm wildly speculating with that scenario obviously. It was pulled firmly out of my arse.

But Joe will have designed some sort of backup if Henshaw has an absolute 'mare and I don't think it's a stretch that he'll shuffle the backline to keep one of his best players in the game.

The Rape of Lucretia

troyzer wrote: »

But Joe will have designed some sort of backup if Henshaw has an absolute 'mare and I don't think it's a stretch that he'll shuffle the backline to keep one of his best players in the game.

Do you mean Aki or Henshaw here ?
He keeps Henshaw in the game by moving him to 12 and bringing on Conway or Larmo from the bench to 15 and giving Aki a rest. Ringrose to the wing is not happening in any of the 78 trillion universes that are considered by some to exist.
And someone of Henshie's class having such a mare that a reconfiguration of the backs is not in that universe either.
Really - we were on more solid ground when there was an angling for TOH at 15.

Podge_irl

troyzer wrote: »

Who said that they're not training for that eventuality? I'm wildly speculating with that scenario obviously. It was pulled firmly out of my arse.

But Joe will have designed some sort of backup if Henshaw has an absolute 'mare and I don't think it's a stretch that he'll shuffle the backline to keep one of his best players in the game.

Yeah, the backup option will be Larmour/Addison moving to fullback and Henshaw coming off.

There are only so many minutes to train, and you train mostly in the position you are going to be starting in. The goal with any substitution will be to cause as little disruption to the starting lineup as possible.

errlloyd

Whats everyone's favorite 6 nations hype video?,

McGurk and Hans Zimmer.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=IA1FdnOftgc

fitz

Could be Larmour starting, with Henshaw having trained at 15 so he can cover there if he takes the 23 shirt? In the event of an injury to one of the wingers, Larmour moves out and Henshaw goes to 15, otherwise, you have him coming on for Bundee at 60 minutes and pounding through a tiring English defensive line from 12...
Whatever happens...in Joe we trust, and it's been too long since there was a major Joe curveball.
Henshaw starting would certainly keep things interesting.

molloyjh

troyzer wrote: »

Well I suppose you could take one of your best players off the pitch instead in Henshaw.

Either he’s one of our best players, and so should start in the position that made him so, or he doesn’t work out at 15 and is therefore not one of the best players on the day. If your solution is to replace an outstanding winger with our best 13 so that we can accommodate arguably our best 12 playing alongside our other arguable best 12 and move a guy who has actually been playing at 15 in to replace someone who hasn’t, then I think it’s fairly clear there’s some massively jumbled up logic there.

Dave_The_Sheep

errlloyd wrote: »

Whats everyone's favorite 6 nations hype video?,

McGurk and Hans Zimmer.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=IA1FdnOftgc

For all the **** I'll give RTE, whoever made their Six Nations hype intros were really did some excellent stuff down the years.

Always liked the 2013 one:

And their "Goodbye" one (even if it's a little Hook heavy) did raise the hairs particularly toward the end.

Went on a bit of a binge of these a few days ago.

Larbre34

Through a solid contact I can tell you that saving all other injuries or unforeseens, Henshaw is starting at 15 this week.

Dubinusa

Bizarre! Henshaw could potentially do the job.
But, he's played so little lately. Larmour is worth another look, or Addison?
The Bobster will be feeling the heat if he's dropped.

Dubinusa

Dubinusa wrote: »

Bizarre! Henshaw could potentially do the job.
But, he's played so little lately. Larmour is worth another look, or Addison?
The Bobster will be feeling the heat if he's dropped.

That's my reasoning for not putting him at 12 over Aki. Quite the head scratcher

Rigor Mortis

In an interesting typo in the Irish Times print edition, Gerry Thornley appears to pick Nathan White as his likely starting tighthead for Ireland.

Rigor Mortis

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

In an interesting typo in the Irish Times print edition, Gerry Thornley appears to pick Nathan White as his likely starting tighthead for Ireland.

It's already fixed but yeah that is a strange one.

Edit, sorry I missed the word 'print' above.

They print newspapers?? Who knew.

Zzippy

Lads, I heard Robbie Henshaw was training at 15 this week. Possibly a Joe curveball?

irishbucsfan

Sounds like that’s the team alright. Henshaw at 15.

Eddie Jones scouring YouTube for Connacht matches from 2014.

9 years since Joe gave us our first curve ball (Clermont 2010 is my guess at the first, Dom Ryan and Eoin O’Malley?). Will this be his last?!

aloooof

troyzer wrote: »

Who said that they're not training for that eventuality? I'm wildly speculating with that scenario obviously. It was pulled firmly out of my arse.

But Joe will have designed some sort of backup if Henshaw has an absolute 'mare and I don't think it's a stretch that he'll shuffle the backline to keep one of his best players in the game.

So it's wild speculation that you've admittedly pulled firmly out of arse but you don't think it's a stretch?

Anyways, Podge_Irl summed it up, what you're suggesting has such little chance of ever happening.

Former Former

Zzippy wrote: »

Lads, I heard Robbie Henshaw was training at 15 this week. Possibly a Joe curveball?

Conservative Joe strikes again.

Joe's pet Rob Kearney isn't ready so he picks his other pet Henshaw out of position rather than trust a new guy.

Worst. Coach. Ever.

If this Henshaw move is true and it's a permanent change it's interesting in that he's probably the least divisive figure to take the shirt of Kearney.

Whether it was Larmour, Conway, O'Halloran, Addison or anyone else - dethroning Kearney was always going to bring with it a lot of likely heated debate, but with Henshaw having played for two provinces and being a well liked and established talent it's actually been fairly sedate speculation.

Went to bed early last night so I'll be able to stay up until whatever midnight hour the Ireland press conference is at.

troyzer

Deleted User wrote: »

If this Henshaw move is true and it's a permanent change it's interesting in that he's probably the least divisive figure to take the shirt of Kearney.

Whether it was Larmour, Conway, O'Halloran, Addison or anyone else - dethroning Kearney was always going to bring with it a lot of likely heated debate, but with Henshaw having played for two provinces and being a well liked and established talent it's actually been fairly sedate speculation.

Went to bed early last night so I'll be able to stay up until whatever midnight hour the Ireland press conference is at.

I think Joe will throw another curveball in actually announcing the team at lunchtime today.

sydthebeat

It would be very weird, and in truth largely a waste of 3 years, if henshaw is the future 15 for Ireland.

I have no doubt Joe had a large hand in him going to leinster to play 12

sydthebeat

sydthebeat wrote: »

It would be very weird, and in truth largely a waste of 3 years, if henshaw is the future 15 for Ireland.

I have no doubt Joe had a large hand in him going to leinster to play 12

That's what I'd find the strangest thing here. Making the change so close to the RWC.

Or else he's just letting Kearney know he cannot play like he did against Scarlets and Kearney will be back in later in the tournament.

sydthebeat

Brayden Witty Tummy wrote: »

Or else he's just letting Kearney know he cannot play like he did against Scarlets and Kearney will be back in later in the tournament.

if so thats a huge dent to the confidence of larmour, addison and conway... and even possibly earls who has more test experience at 15... but is safe on the wing

Perifect

Maybe we will be stronger with Henshaw at 15! Now that we have Aki.

Rigor Mortis

This is about testing squad options. There is no question in my head that Kearney goes to the RWC as number one FB. However, if this goes well. then it may mean that the likes of Haley, Larmour, Addison or Conway are more expendable. It also suggests to me that Joe doesnt care too much about this 6n and we can be fairly sure that Carberry will start an away game in Scotland / Wales and that if Marmion gets fit that he will get a start in an away match as well. Wouldnt be surprised to see Porter and McGrath get starts too.

sydthebeat

sydthebeat wrote: »

if so thats a huge dent to the confidence of larmour, addison and conway... and even possibly earls who has more test experience at 15... but is safe on the wing

Earls doesn't come into this at all. Conway hasn't been playing 15 for Munster either and has a scattered few caps only so not sure why he'd feel hard done by. It's not a great show of faith in Larmour I agree.

stephen_n

sydthebeat wrote: »

if so thats a huge dent to the confidence of larmour, addison and conway... and even possibly earls who has more test experience at 15... but is safe on the wing

Larmour, Conway and Addison have been fighting it out for the 23 jersey. Nothing has really changed with this. Considering it was well flagged that this was intended to be tried during the Ai’s, it won’t come as a shock to them.

As things stand Henshaw is a better and more developed player than the three of them. This is simply a case of using Kearneys lack of preparation to try something that needs to be tested at a high level. It’s not like he has never played there and this is a total gamble. It’s a calculated risk, with short term implications and possible long term benefits. I assume Joe has seen enough of Robbie training there to feel the risk is worth taking.

aloooof

Perifect wrote: »

How do you know?

Common sense. When was the last time a Tier 1 team didn't bring the captain at the start of the calendar year to that years World Cup, outside of injury reasons? I don't think it's happened in the pro era.

aloooof

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

This is about testing squad options. There is no question in my head that Kearney goes to the RWC as number one FB. However, if this goes well. then it may mean that the likes of Haley, Larmour, Addison or Conway are more expendable. It also suggests to me that Joe doesnt care too much about this 6n and we can be fairly sure that Carberry will start an away game in Scotland / Wales and that if Marmion gets fit that he will get a start in an away match as well. Wouldnt be surprised to see Porter and McGrath get starts too.

I wonder is there a chance he's more likely to start the France game at home instead? Can understand the calls for him to get 2 starts anyways.

troyzer

aloooof wrote: »

I wonder is there a chance he's more likely to start the France game at home instead? Can understand the calls for him to get 2 starts anyways.

France and Italy would be the two. Not Scotland.

aloooof

troyzer wrote: »

France and Italy would be the two. Not Scotland.

Ya, I meant Italy + France.

Former Former

I don't think there's any question that Henshaw is a better rugby player than any of Larmour, Conway or Addison, it's just a question of whether he's a better full-back at this moment in time.

If Kearney is left out because he's still not 100% (and the Scarlets game wasn't a good omen for that), then he might come back in for next weekend. So then what happens Henshaw? Unless Cullen gets on board, he won't play FB again until August.

The other possibility is that this is the beginning of the end for Kearney and he won't force his way back in. If Henshaw has a stormer this week, and Aki tears it up in the centre, is Joe going to change things up next week?

Rigor Mortis

Former Former wrote: »

? Unless Cullen gets on board, he won't play FB again until August.

Given that Leinster have as good as won their conference, Leo might be willing to be a bit more flexible in regard to this. It would also allow him to try out another option for the post RK era.

Perifect

aloooof wrote: »

Common sense. When was the last time a Tier 1 team didn't bring the captain at the start of the calendar year to that years World Cup, outside of injury reasons? I don't think it's happened in the pro era.

If he's not playing well and others overtake him, he'll be dropped. Sentiment won't come into it.