Question for the legal buffs

clivej

I have 7 + 1 mag Shotguns on restricted licenses. And because they are restricted firearms they cannot be used by other people.
Now if the mag plug is put back into the Shotguns making them 2 + 1, they are now a non-restricted friearm, but still licensed as a restricted firearm.

Can the Shotguns then be used by other people???
Would they be allowed shoot slugs??

Just thinking of how to get fellow shooters into target shotgun shooting and training that do not have the equipment.

Gorgeousgeorge

bit off topic clive but what are ye paying for the slugs these days? i remember back a few years ago when they first started doing it in hh the prices were very high!

garv123

clivej wrote: »

I have 7 + 1 mag Shotguns on restricted licenses. And because they are restricted firearms they cannot be used by other people.
Now if the mag plug is put back into the Shotguns making them 2 + 1, they are now a non-restricted friearm, but still licensed as a restricted firearm.

Can the Shotguns then be used by other people???
Would they be allowed shoot slugs??

Just thinking of how to get fellow shooters into target shotgun shooting and training that do not have the equipment.

Slugs also require a restricted licence, so they cant shoot them I would assume.

But can you not fire someones firearm on an authorized range?

Ziggieire

garv123 wrote: »

But can you not fire someones firearm on an authorized range?

Not a restricted as far as i know

BattleCorp

If you are shooting with slugs, the gun is restricted, regardless of mag capacity.

So if it's restricted, then only the licence holder can shoot it.

Grizzly 45

FIK, they stay in the category they are registered as irrespective of mag capacity.IOW its restricted whether it has 3 shots blocked or a 60 round drum mag on it.The only way to make it unrestricted is to declare it as such and change the mag capacity.

As for others using them, you could make them your " human trigger extension".A trick used in the US to allow people to test fire Class 3 full auto weapons and the like.As the same scenario applies with more paperwork and tax stamps... You cant let anyone shoot a Class 3 weapon without them having a Class 3 permit,or dealership license, or are a member of your covenant[A group ownership of a Class 3 item] Rather awkward if you just want to see what it's like to shoot a Thompson SMG,or whatever. Oddly the BATF agree that this is legal
The gun has never left your possession and control. So you have to load and manually disengage/engage the safety while keeping one hand on the person using the gun at all times. you hand and remove the gun from them, and tell them when to fire, or not.

Use at your own risk obviously!!!

clivej

Gorgeousgeorge wrote: »

bit off topic clive but what are ye paying for the slugs these days? i remember back a few years ago when they first started doing it in hh the prices were very high!

I'm using target slugs at about 80 Euro for a box of 100

Sparks

Section 2(4)(d) doesn't discriminate between restricted and non-restricted on a range:

(d) the possession, use or carriage of a firearm or ammunition during a competition or target practice at a club, shooting range or any other place that stands authorised under this section or section 4A of this Act

However the range may have its own rules, or rules might be imposed on it by insurance or authorisation conditions so Your Mileage May Vary, ask first.

Also, funky point, if you have a restricted cert for a 7+1 shotgun and only a restricted cert, then restricting it to a 2+1 shotgun would leave you in possession of an unlicenced firearm because the restricted cert is not a superset of the unrestricted licence. They're different classes of certificate, not different levels in a graduated system. It'd be like having a driving licence for a car and relying on it to drive a motorbike (yes, this means you're for the high jump if you put slugs in an unrestricted shotgun or birdshot in double-barrelled shotgun held on a restricted cert).

(And yes, this is stupid, but no, that has nothing whatsoever to do with it being legal - it doesn't have to make sense for it to be in the Firearms Act. If anything, something making sense reduces its chances of getting into the Firearms Act )

A related funky point - if you just put in a dowel to make it a 2+1, well I'm not sure if we've ever tested that kind of modification in a court but it was a major point of contention a few years ago with the AGS. If the modification was reversible, AGS argued that it wasn't sufficient because you might get an unrestricted licence then remove the dowel and have a restricted firearm you had no cert for. In this hypothetical thought experiment you'd be going the other way, but the point would be the same; you're changing the class of firearm without the certificate type to match.

Now I don't think we're going to see AGS members watching everyone with a shotgun licence for this, but I think it might fall under the category of "erra, don't push it".

BattleCorp

Hey Sparks,

Just in case I'm being thick but are you saying that apart from club rules, insurance and possible range restrictions, there's no actual lawful impediment to me using someone else's restricted firearm on a range here in Ireland?

I'd be delighted if that's the case but that's not what I've been taught on every RO course I've ever gone on. I was always told that only the licensee of the restricted firearm can use it.

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

S

A related funky point - if you just put in a dowel to make it a 2+1, well I'm not sure if we've ever tested that kind of modification in a court but it was a major point of contention a few years ago with the AGS. If the modification was reversible, AGS argued that it wasn't sufficient because you might get an unrestricted licence then remove the dowel and have a restricted firearm you had no cert for

.

That was Insp Google&Co whining that the law was unfair to them in this case. Because you are 100% legal under the current law in just putting a dowel in the gun to reduce it to three. If I remember correctly the wording is " Built or modified to be incapable of holding more than three rounds ." Says nothing in the act that must be permanent. It was the same stupid argument that was used with the unrestricted/restricted 5or10 shot .22 magazines.
That people "might" put a ten round in their .22 or "might" take the plug out of their shotgun...As you "might" take a ball peen hammer and wallop someone over the head too. Think it's called "supposition of intent" and isn't a very good legal ground to base law on...But we do it a lot here in Ireland.:(

Now I don't think we're going to see AGS members watching everyone with a shotgun licence for this, but I think it might fall under the category of "erra, don't push it".

Think this question is being asked because of a once off event coming up soon, and hopefully newbies will be joining, so people want to be belt&braces legally. Not because of any intent or permanent desire to convert restricted guns to unrestricted.

Sparks

BattleCorp wrote: »

Hey Sparks,
Just in case I'm being thick but are you saying that apart from club rules, insurance and possible range restrictions, there's no actual lawful impediment to me using someone else's restricted firearm on a range here in Ireland?

None that I'm aware of.
It doesn't apply in the case of club firearms or the "corporate day" style of shooting where non-members show up for the day, but if I was on the range and you, a member of that range, had a restricted firearm then 2(4)(d) would apply if I was to shoot that firearm.

Now "club rules, insurance and possible range restrictions" are not exactly small things...

I was always told that only the licensee of the restricted firearm can use it.

I know that's in the rules for several ranges, but it came from insurance conditions or authorisation conditions in those cases.

Don't get me wrong - it's still a rule. I mean, you wouldn't walk forward of the line when the range is hot or leave your brass scattered all over the ground when you go home, just because there's nothing in the Firearms Act that says you shouldn't do that...

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

If I remember correctly the wording is " Built or modified to be incapable of holding more than three rounds ." Says nothing in the act that must be permanent.

Yes, that was the point in contention.

The argument we had was that the act of issuing a cert made it a permanent modification because it became illegal to remove it.

I mean, if it being illegal to remove is not considered sufficient permanency, then that's a comment on the character of the applicant and if you think the applicant won't obey the firearms act, well then the act itself actively prohibits you from issuing a certificate (as in, it says "may not", it doesn't give the issuing officer any choice in the matter).

But what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander - it is equally illegal the way things are now to add such a restriction to the magazine.

How exactly that's coped with if you have a restricted cert and you trip and fall and dent the barrel converting it inadvertantly to a 2+1 is left as an exercise for the bored readers

Nekarsulm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

.
Think this question is being asked because of a once off event coming up soon, and hopefully newbies will be joining, so people want to be belt&braces legally. Not because of any intent or permanent desire to convert restricted guns to unrestricted.

The organisers have stated that those wishing to attend must bring their own semi-auto or manual shot gun.
As these will not be restricted licenced firearms, and the owners are not in possession of a restricted licence, only normal "un restricted" shotgun ammunition can be used on the day .

As a result, while the newbie can experience shooting targets from a variety of ranges and positions, it will not be possible to score their target sheet.

Attendees will be responsible for bringing their own ammunition.

There is absolutely no indication that any newbie will be allowed fire someone elses restricted shotgun + target slug at a paper target.

Cass

Sparks wrote: »

None that I'm aware of..

Section 27 of the 2006 act amends section 2 of the principal act with the addition of part 6:

“(6) In subsections (3)(g) and (4) (other than paragraphs (d), (i) and (k)), references to a firearm or ammunition do not include references to a restricted firearm or restricted ammunition.”.

Those subsections and paragraphs relate to the ability to use restricted ammo/firearms on a range (among other places).

Would this not state that there is no allowance for restricted firearms in the conditions mentioned in sections (4), etc.?

Chiparus

Sparks wrote: »

Section 2(4)(d) doesn't discriminate between restricted and non-restricted on a range:

However the range may have its own rules, or rules might be imposed on it by insurance or authorisation conditions so Your Mileage May Vary, ask first.

Also, funky point, if you have a restricted cert for a 7+1 shotgun and only a restricted cert, then restricting it to a 2+1 shotgun would leave you in possession of an unlicenced firearm because the restricted cert is not a superset of the unrestricted licence. They're different classes of certificate, not different levels in a graduated system. It'd be like having a driving licence for a car and relying on it to drive a motorbike (yes, this means you're for the high jump if you put slugs in an unrestricted shotgun or birdshot in double-barrelled shotgun held on a restricted cert).

(And yes, this is stupid, but no, that has nothing whatsoever to do with it being legal - it doesn't have to make sense for it to be in the Firearms Act. If anything, something making sense reduces its chances of getting into the Firearms Act )

A related funky point - if you just put in a dowel to make it a 2+1, well I'm not sure if we've ever tested that kind of modification in a court but it was a major point of contention a few years ago with the AGS. If the modification was reversible, AGS argued that it wasn't sufficient because you might get an unrestricted licence then remove the dowel and have a restricted firearm you had no cert for. In this hypothetical thought experiment you'd be going the other way, but the point would be the same; you're changing the class of firearm without the certificate type to match.

Now I don't think we're going to see AGS members watching everyone with a shotgun licence for this, but I think it might fall under the category of "erra, don't push it".

If I have a restricted ruger 10/22 with a 25 round magazine and put in a 10 round magazine, isit unlicensed?

Sparks

Cass wrote: »

Section 27 of the 2006 act amends section 2 of the principal act with the addition of part 6:


Those subsections and paragraphs relate to the ability to use restricted ammo/firearms on a range (among other places).

Would this not state that there is no allowance for restricted firearms in the conditions mentioned in sections (4), etc.?

Completely missed that; disregard the above so!

Sparks

Chiparus wrote: »

If I have a restricted ruger 10/22 with a 25 round magazine and put in a 10 round magazine, isit unlicensed?

It doesn't meet the definition of a restricted firearm according to the SIs so my guess is "technically this is correct but in practice the nature of the magazines in a rifle and the way they're normally detached for storage mean that nobody's likely to ever enforce the law on you".

For shotguns the magazine's a little more integral but the enforcement liklihood is still pretty low going from restricted to unrestricted but that has no legal basis, just a practical one. (Which is a polite way of saying don't piss off a Garda or they could well make your life miserable that way because you have no protection in the law if your paperwork doesn't match up to your possessions).

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

I

For shotguns the magazine's a little more integral but the enforcement liklihood is still pretty low going from restricted to unrestrictedns).

Just to make the issue even more difficult in the future.:),3,5,10,15,20 round[Also available in Remington]

https://www.mossberg.com/category/series/590m-mag-fed/

meathstevie

Chiparus wrote: »

If I have a restricted ruger 10/22 with a 25 round magazine and put in a 10 round magazine, isit unlicensed?

It's a detachable magazine so I suppose if one wants to be a bit fussy it would come down to the wording on your certificate.

Does it for example say " rifle, cal .22 by Ruger serial number 12345 with a maximum capacity of 25 rounds" then any magazine with a capacity of 25 rounds or less should be acceptable.

Does it on the other hand say "with a 25 round magazine" then that's it, not 24, not 26 or any other number.

BattleCorp

meathstevie wrote: »

It's a detachable magazine so I suppose if one wants to be a bit fussy it would come down to the wording on your certificate.

Does it for example say " rifle, cal .22 by Ruger serial number 12345 with a maximum capacity of 25 rounds" then any magazine with a capacity of 25 rounds or less should be acceptable.

Does it on the other hand say "with a 25 round magazine" then that's it, not 24, not 26 or any other number.

I don't have my licences with me but I don't think the licence mentions anything regarding magazine capacity.

meathstevie

BattleCorp wrote: »

I don't have my licences with me but I don't think the licence mentions anything regarding magazine capacity.

Personally I would be happy enough to use any magazine with a capacity of 25 rounds or less if that's the case.