Polish Mayor murdered on stage

batgoat

A Polish Mayor known for his liberal views in contrast to the current ruling government was killed on stage yesterday. This is under a climate where the government has become incredibly right wing, anti migrant and attempted to hijack the judiciary.

https://m.independent.ie/world-news/europe/mayor-of-polish-town-gdansk-dies-after-he-was-stabbed-while-on-stage-at-charity-event-37709167.html

Dravokivich

Thanks Batgoat, caught a headline in an app that aggregates news feeds the other day, but the article wouldn't load up for me.

Poll Dubh

There's something rotten in the state of Poland. I started getting concerned when they rolled out the welcome wagon for Donald Trump.

joujoujou

I was born in Gdańsk, grew up in Gdańsk, lived in Gdańsk the best 35 years of my life. Mr. Adamowicz was the right person on the right place, he made Gdańsk greater/better/nicer than ever. Even being Mayor, you could meet him out and about, he loved to go out just to talk to us, to everybody who just was there and wanted to interact. Like ordinary person, yet so extraordinary at the same time.

City of Gdańsk will never be the same without him.

And I'd rather prefer not to say anything about current political situation in my home country, I just have a feeling the whole country goes downhill, regrettably.

Riddle101

Crazy that the guy who stabbed the mayor was an ex-convict who shouted that he was wrongly convicted and innocent. Yet he shows his innocence by killing the mayor and being put back into prison. :eek:

wakka12

Thats very gruesome and tragic. RIP.

Earthsnotflat

Yes, the murderer had obviously had a problem with judging his own actions as wrong, it's hard to imagine someone with right senses to commit such a crime. But what is worse is what triggered such action, and political climate created but governing party has a lot to answer. Hateful rhetoric just brought its fruits, not first time in history

ednwireland

my mothers familiy moved there during WW2 so any family i have left are there visted the last years after a 16 year break and what changes what a great city

RIP Mr. Adamowicz

AndyTheDude

batgoat wrote: »

A Polish Mayor known for his liberal views in contrast to the current ruling government was killed on stage yesterday.

Horrible act no doubt. I don't think the mayor's liberal views had anything to do with it though. The perpetrator was previously convicted for bank robberies and has a long history of mental illness. He was being treated for schizophrenia while in prison. "Surprisingly enough" there's only one sentence in the quoted Indo's piece about it.

batgoat wrote: »

This is under a climate where the government has become incredibly right wing

Actually, their social policies put them on the left of the political scene in Poland. Even if they were "incredibly right wing" as you say then I wouldn't see any problem with that at all. Apparently, according to some, there's only place for left wing parties in Europe. That's not how democracy is supposed to work though.

batgoat wrote: »

anti migrant

Great. They have my vote then.

batgoat wrote: »

and attempted to hijack the judiciary.

Complete and utter nonsense. Switch off your Euronews and go for a walk.

Captain Obvious

Interesting parallels to Jo Cox.

wakka12

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Interesting parallels to Jo Cox.

I was just thinking that. Theres something particularly distubring about it, especially because they were both well intentioned decent people

strandroad

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Interesting parallels to Jo Cox.

Yes, a disturbed mind picking up the signals of narratives playing out in the public sphere. "The judicial process cannot be trusted", "the liberals are to blame" in this case. He chose the liberal leaning charity event too while he could have attacked the mayor in the street on any other day with no security to deal with.
Very sad. Just like Jo Cox indeed.

batgoat

AndyTheDude wrote: »

Horrible act no doubt. I don't think the mayor's liberal views had anything to do with it though. The perpetrator was previously convicted for bank robberies and has a long history of mental illness. He was being treated for schizophrenia while in prison. "Surprisingly enough" there's only one sentence in the quoted Indo's piece about it.



Actually, their social policies put them on the left of the political scene in Poland. Even if they were "incredibly right wing" as you say then I wouldn't see any problem with that at all. Apparently, according to some, there's only place for left wing parties in Europe. That's not how democracy is supposed to work though.


Great. They have my vote then.


Complete and utter nonsense. Switch off your Euronews and go for a walk.

Yes, the judiciary has been hijacked by the government. It's currently going through European courts, they also tried to force judges over 70 to retire because they wouldn't align with them. That's currently blocked by the EU. This is a fact. Yes they are considered rather right wing and they would be considered far right in most states. Their social policies are akin to the Catholic Church with the addition of the anti migrant position.

Other notable events include members of the party marching with fascists last year..
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/11/11/polish-government-officials-march-far-right-groups-mark-century/


So yep, I do find it of note when a politician who holds views that are the antithesis of the governments to be of note.

AndyTheDude

batgoat wrote: »

Yes, the judiciary has been hijacked by the government. It's currently going through European courts, they also tried to force judges over 70 to retire because they wouldn't align with them. That's currently blocked by the EU. This is a fact. Yes they are considered rather right wing and they would be considered far right in most states. Their social policies are akin to the Catholic Church with the addition of the anti migrant position.

Other notable events include members of the party marching with fascists last year..
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/11/11/polish-government-officials-march-far-right-groups-mark-century/


So yep, I do find it of note when a politician who holds views that are the antithesis of the governments to be of note.

It would be better if the EU looked closely at the current situation in France for instance. Quite a number of people got killed during demonstrations there. Thousands arrested, water cannons on the streets just like when martial law was imposed in Poland in December 1981.
Good old Poland is doing just fine, no need to worry about it.
As for describing the annual Independence March as a "fascist" or "right wing" event, I am not even going to waste my time for that. It's simply beyond ridiculous.

Sonic Youth

I've been to Gdansk. Nice city.

Sonic Youth

batgoat wrote: »

A Polish Mayor known for his liberal views in contrast to the current ruling government was killed on stage yesterday. This is under a climate where the government has become incredibly right wing, anti migrant and attempted to hijack the judiciary.

Poland is great. You should go visit instead of bitching about their policies that have no effect on you.

skooterblue2

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Interesting parallels to Jo Cox.

Are you suggesting a "clean skin" was used?

May I suggest you post here?

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=576

batgoat

Sonic Youth wrote: »

Poland is great. You should go visit instead of bitching about their policies that have no effect on you.

I've got plenty of Polish friends that are concerned about the way things have gone in Poland. When politicians start getting killed, that's a matter for concern. When judiciaries are hijacked by the ruling party that's a concern. Your stance is akin to saying that the enabling act in Nazi Germany couldn't be criticised by non Germans since it was only national policy.

But good try at glossing over serious issues.

Sonic Youth

batgoat wrote: »

I've got plenty of Polish friends that are concerned about the way things have gone in Poland. When politicians start getting killed, that's a matter for concern. When judiciaries are hijacked by the ruling party that's a concern. Your stance is akin to saying that the enabling act in Nazi Germany couldn't be criticised by non Germans since it was only national policy.

But good try at glossing over serious issues.

Or how about you let the Poles run their affairs and stop being a lefty whinger?

batgoat

Sonic Youth wrote: »

Or how about you let the Poles run their affairs and stop being a lefty whinger?

You don't think a government hijacking the judiciary is of significance? That's literally undermining democracy and is of interest regardless of if you're left or right wing..

mikhail

Sonic Youth wrote: »

Or how about you let the Poles run their affairs and stop being a lefty whinger?

Their right wing government is enabling the right wing government in Hungary by vetoing EU sanctions, and vice versa. So as long as we're in the EU, Poland's ****e government is a matter of some concern.

Franz Von Peppercorn

batgoat wrote: »

Yes, the judiciary has been hijacked by the government. It's currently going through European courts, they also tried to force judges over 70 to retire because they wouldn't align with them. That's currently blocked by the EU. This is a fact. Yes they are considered rather right wing and they would be considered far right in most states. Their social policies are akin to the Catholic Church with the addition of the anti migrant position.

Other notable events include members of the party marching with fascists last year..
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/11/11/polish-government-officials-march-far-right-groups-mark-century/


So yep, I do find it of note when a politician who holds views that are the antithesis of the governments to be of note.

The over 70 years judiciary would have been active in the communist era, right? Or were they previously replaced.

Franz Von Peppercorn

mikhail wrote: »

Their right wing government is enabling the right wing government in Hungary by vetoing EU sanctions, and vice versa. So as long as we're in the EU, Poland's ****e government is a matter of some concern.

Irexit? Join the British?

Sonic Youth

batgoat wrote: »

You don't think a government hijacking the judiciary is of significance? That's literally undermining democracy and is of interest regardless of if you're left or right wing..

Not my country, I don't care. But I think the real issue is that you are mad that there are countries in Europe that are strongly nationalist, don't want to be swamped with the dregs of the third world and will stand up to trash like Merkel.

strandroad

AndyTheDude wrote: »

As for describing the annual Independence March as a "fascist" or "right wing" event, I am not even going to waste my time for that. It's simply beyond ridiculous.

Sure, it's a family picnic.

Sonic Youth

mikhail wrote: »

Their right wing government is enabling the right wing government in Hungary by vetoing EU sanctions, and vice versa. So as long as we're in the EU, Poland's ****e government is a matter of some concern.

Excellent. Long may they continue.

Franz Von Peppercorn

batgoat wrote: »

You don't think a government hijacking the judiciary is of significance? That's literally undermining democracy and is of interest regardless of if you're left or right wing..

There are plenty of democracies where governments, or the people, or the parliaments can choose or reject the judiciary or impeach them.

Billy86

batgoat wrote: »

I've got plenty of Polish friends that are concerned about the way things have gone in Poland. When politicians start getting killed, that's a matter for concern. When judiciaries are hijacked by the ruling party that's a concern. Your stance is akin to saying that the enabling act in Nazi Germany couldn't be criticised by non Germans since it was only national policy.

But good try at glossing over serious issues.

Why bother when that person only sees politics as sports, their reaction mimicking how a Real Madrid fan would react to Lionel Messi getting injured from a bad foul says it all. It's a sad state of affairs, but it is where we are - and their response to your post I have quoted here couldn't be a better example if they tried.

Captain Obvious

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Are you suggesting a "clean skin" was used?

May I suggest you post here?

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=576

A what now?

batgoat

Sonic Youth wrote: »

Not my country, I don't care. But I think the real issue is that you are mad that there are countries in Europe that are strongly nationalist, don't want to be swamped with the dregs of the third world and will stand up to trash like Merkel.

So you view hijacking the judiciary as okay? What view would you hold on the enabling act?

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The over 70 years judiciary would have been active in the communist era, right? Or were they previously replaced.

Was actually a reduction of the age of retirement to 65 from 70. It would have resulted in a third of supreme court judges retiring. The government could then replace one third of judges with those that they wanted in. The argument that the Polish government used was that it would allow for the removal of communist era appointments.

The reason they're being brought to the ECJ is because the EU view the intent to be to undermine the judiciary and it violates two EU treaties.

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

There are plenty of democracies where governments, or the people, or the parliaments can choose or reject the judiciary or impeach them.

Removing Judges in this manner within the EU? Nope, it's literally a violation of EU law. Controlling the supreme court to this degree is pretty unusual. There's a reason why it was referred to as a purge? I'm sure you can reference a similar situation to this one?

Lefty Bicek

batgoat wrote: »

A Polish Mayor known for his liberal views in contrast to the current ruling government was killed on stage yesterday. This is under a climate where the government has become incredibly right wing, anti migrant and attempted to hijack the judiciary.

In the first place, it's quite cynical of you to lump your agenda in there. None of your screed has any real prominence in the article you linked to.

In the second place, as much as you are hostile to 'right wing', when Poland was soi disant left-wing, do you think you would have thrived ?

Poland's has problems and issues to face, but the fact that it is a substantially mono-ethnic and mono-cultural society is not one of them.

circadian

Edgelords out in force on this one.

Franz Von Peppercorn

batgoat wrote: »

So you view hijacking the judiciary as okay? What view would you hold on the enabling act?


Was actually a reduction of the age of retirement to 65 from 70. It would have resulted in a third of supreme court judges retiring. The government could then replace one third of judges with those that they wanted in. The argument that the Polish government used was that it would allow for the removal of communist era appointments.

The reason they're being brought to the ECJ is because the EU view the intent to be to undermine the judiciary and it violates two EU treaties.

The communist era justices should be on trial or in jail. They either presided over a totalitarian state’s justice system as regime supporting prosecutors, defense lawyers or justices - in a state that jailed people for non orthodox beliefs or civil association.

Should have happened years ago. Might have been better to get rid of them for communist era sympathies though.


It’s not a good look for the EU.

Sonic Youth

batgoat wrote: »

So you view hijacking the judiciary as okay? What view would you hold on the enabling act?

Couldn't give a toss how they run their affairs. Perhaps the Fuher Merkel should do the same?

I admire the Poles for their nationalism.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Anyway looks like Poland has backed down.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/11/21/poland-bows-eu-pressure-controversial-judicial-reforms/

batgoat

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

In the first place, it's quite cynical of you to lump your agenda in there. None of your screed has any real prominence in the article you linked to.

In the second place, as much as you are hostile to 'right wing', when Poland was soi disant left-wing, do you think you would have thrived ?

Poland's has problems and issues to face, but the fact that it is a substantially mono-ethnic and mono-cultural society is not one of them.

I'd paint it as pretty relevant, the far right made him into a figure of hate in Poland. A far right politician said he was a "traitor to the nation", after he was killed.

His liberal stance cast him as a hate figure for government supporters and the far right. In a 2017 publicity stunt, the All-Polish Youth movement published a series of “political death certificates” of pro-European politicians; on Adamowicz’s certificate, they put his “cause of death” as “liberalism, multiculturalism, stupidity”. Observers say he was regularly subjected to personal attacks and abuse on social media and from rightwing media outlets.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/15/gdansk-polish-city-mourning-mayor-pawel-adamowicz-stabbing

So the parallels between him and the likes of Jo Cox is entirely relevant.

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The communist era justices should be on trial or in jail. They either presided over a totalitarian state’s justice system as regime supporting prosecutors, defense lawyers or justices - in a state that jailed people for non orthodox beliefs or civil association.

Should have happened years ago. Might have been better to get rid of them for communist era sympathies though.


It’s not a good look for the EU.

It's not a good look for the EU that they expect Poland to abide by the law and not attempt to undermine the judiciary? This led to national protests btw. For example the head of the Supreme Court gets taken out by this law, she's post communist era. Anyway, here's a chronology of all the other dodgy things that the Polish government did in relation to the judiciary.. Communism is not their government's concern.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-poland-chronology/chronology-poland-clashes-with-eu-over-judicial-reforms-rule-of-law-idUSKBN1JU25U

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Anyway looks like Poland has backed down.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/11/21/poland-bows-eu-pressure-controversial-judicial-reforms/

Pretty irrelevant since they've already undermined the judiciary as outlined in the above article. There's still an inquiry into the government for all the other ways they've undermined their judiciary.

AndyTheDude

strandroad wrote: »

Sure, it's a family picnic.

Well, looks like it is:

batgoat

Leaving out the photos of those wearing Balaclavas. The fact that the 'National Radical Camp' were present, they're most definitely fascists. The fact that the Mayor of Warsaw opposed the march due to hate speech. So yeah, I'm sure you'll find pictures of parents at Nazi Rallies back in the day too, doesn't change what they were.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/poland-independence-day-far-right-march-protest-banned-warsaw-court-ruling-a8625506.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Radical_Camp

skooterblue2

Captain Obvious wrote: »

A what now?

When the government want to do something unofficially, they either use a patsi or criminal element. Afterwards they can be disposed of without any great concern.

Sonic Youth

batgoat wrote: »

Leaving out the photos of those wearing Balaclavas. The fact that the 'National Radical Camp' were present, they're most definitely fascists. The fact that the Mayor of Warsaw opposed the march due to hate speech. So yeah, I'm sure you'll find pictures of parents at Nazi Rallies back in the day too, doesn't change what they were.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/poland-independence-day-far-right-march-protest-banned-warsaw-court-ruling-a8625506.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Radical_Camp

Get a life you spa.


Mod-Banned

pjohnson

skooterblue2 wrote: »

When the government want to do something unofficially, they either use a patsi or criminal element. Afterwards they can be disposed of without any great concern.

So you escaped CT yourself.

strandroad

AndyTheDude wrote: »

Well, looks like it is:

Sadly it only shows how widespread this mindset is in the society if people think it's good judgment to bring their children into the above.

Sonic Youth

strandroad wrote: »

Sadly it only shows how widespread this mindset is in the society if people think it's good judgment to bring their children into the above.

Why do western euros get so assravaged when they see Eastern Europeans who love their countries?

There's no need to project you own self hatred onto them.

strandroad

Sonic Youth wrote: »

Why do western euros get so assravaged when they see Eastern Europeans who love their countries?

There's no need to project you own self hatred onto them.

You can always go on a family weekend break, cheap pints and you can bring out your kids to march with the nazis. Wins all around.

Sonic Youth

strandroad wrote: »

You can always go on a family weekend break, cheap pints and you can bring out your kids to march with the nazis. Wins all around.

Don't have to worry about Islamic terror attacks either

AndyTheDude

strandroad wrote: »

Sadly it only shows how widespread this mindset is in the society if people think it's good judgment to bring their children into the above.

From what I've read, the total damage caused during the march was a broken car mirror and a few overturned bins. Quite an impressive result for 200.000 people marching together. It was a very peaceful event.

SnakePlissken

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Interesting parallels to Jo Cox.

Interesting parallels to Pim Fortuyn.

MarkHenderson

Sorry to see this person murdered, inexcusable stuff.

Poland seems a country headed in the right direction in general though.

AndyTheDude

strandroad wrote: »

You can always go on a family weekend break, cheap pints and you can bring out your kids to march with the nazis. Wins all around.

Describing the Polish people as "nazis" or "fascists" only shows how little understanding you have about Poland and its history. Quite sad really.

batgoat

MarkHenderson wrote: »

Sorry to see this person murdered, inexcusable stuff.

Poland seems a country headed in the right direction in general though.

Then you don't know much about Poland unless you think a government undermining the judicial system is a good look?

Captain Obvious

skooterblue2 wrote: »

When the government want to do something unofficially, they either use a patsi or criminal element. Afterwards they can be disposed of without any great concern.

You think Jo Cox was killed by the government?

SnakePlissken wrote: »

Interesting parallels to Pim Fortuyn.

Indeed.