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Cork Metropolitan Area Transport Strategy

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  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,211 Mod ✭✭✭✭ CatInABox


    It all sounds good, I'm sure the devil will be in the details. Cork, like Dublin, has been starved of Public Transport investment for far too long.


  • Registered Users Posts: 333 ✭✭ Dats me


    Hope the screencap displays. It's from the minutes of the NTA's October board meeting, seen here: https://www.nationaltransport.ie/publications/all-documents-published/

    Councillors want the Northern Ring Road and are delaying the strategy because of it. I can only presume the modelling shows it's not warranted and now they're trying to rig it like happened with Galway and they're Northern Ring Road.


    Ireland absolutely loves a road


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,342 ✭✭✭ hans aus dtschl


    TBF to them, I can't imagine a scenario where the Northern Ring Road isn't needed at this stage.
    I'd be very interested in any modelling showing it's not warranted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,194 ✭✭✭ cgcsb


    How can county councilors have this power? time to defang them maybe.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,234 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21


    The North Ring Road is absolutely critical and its omission from the plan, if true, makes me wonder what else was left out.

    There is simply no way the JLT can be relied upon into the future if Cork has the M8, a full southern M40, M28 all feeding into it. Sponge Bob summed it up quite well on SSC yesterday, Cork needs a second high standard Lee crossing.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,194 ✭✭✭ cgcsb


    The NCCR could well be an overkill project, CMATS as it stands will remove tens of thousands of cars from the existing N40, some demand management could restore the road to it's original function:

    -Close Douglas and Pouladuff Rd exists
    -Introduce a Toll

    Then the N40 reverts to being a national road for intercity trips and HGVs. Bus and Luas services will get more people East-West across the urban area more efficiently.
    Once CMATs is fully in place and there is demand management on the N40 then revisit the CNRR project if it's needed. No doubt it will be needed when the M20 is complete, if ever.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,342 ✭✭✭ hans aus dtschl


    cgcsb wrote: »
    The NCCR could well be an overkill project, CMATS as it stands will remove tens of thousands of cars from the existing N40, some demand management could restore the road to it's original function:

    -Close Douglas and Pouladuff Rd exists
    -Introduce a Toll

    Then the N40 reverts to being a national road for intercity trips and HGVs. Bus and Luas services will get more people East-West across the urban area more efficiently.
    Once CMATs is fully in place and there is demand management on the N40 then revisit the CNRR project if it's needed. No doubt it will be needed when the M20 is complete, if ever.

    I don't disagree with the general theme of what you're saying, but what's the timescale of these items coming on-stream?
    The tunnel itself is above capacity right now. And many of those motorists are not going East-West, but rather North-South, from places like Fermoy, Rathcormac, Mitchelstown, Watergrasshill to places like Airport Business Park, Carrigaline, Ringaskiddy, Belgooly, Brinny. Public transport options for them are very limited if they're even possible at all.
    Discussing the M40 north in the context of a completed M20 is not right in my opinion. It's got to be both together, not one at a time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,194 ✭✭✭ cgcsb


    I don't disagree with the general theme of what you're saying, but what's the timescale of these items coming on-stream?
    The tunnel itself is above capacity right now.

    Most of CMATs can be delivered a lot quicker than a new motorway scheme. The Dunkettle interchange and CMATs will completely change the game. Add in demand management on the existing N40 and we could find the CNRR isn't needed at all.
    And many of those motorists are not going East-West, but rather North-South, from places like Fermoy, Rathcormac, Mitchelstown, Watergrasshill to places like Airport Business Park, Carrigaline, Ringaskiddy, Belgooly, Brinny. Public transport options for them are very limited if they're even possible at all.

    CNRR does nothing for those journeys they'll continue to use the existing road.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,234 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21


    Tolling the N40 and closing exits are going to be political nightmares.

    A full M40 ring road is needed for Cork by hook or by crook. Remember that there isn't even a regional road linking the N22 and the N20, both of which will be motorways in years to come. Added to the fact that there is the Apple site on this quadrant which employs thousands of people and suffers from catastrophically poor access.

    The clear need for an M40 North Ring is there, it might get built if there was the political will to do so, along with the other M22, M25 and M71 projects required.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭✭✭ BazzFan123


    I'm not sure if this is the right thread for this but something needs to be done about the junction outside Marks & Spencers in Douglas. Cars coming from the main street heading to the flyover and caught by the cars coming off the relief road by the cinema. This usually isn't an issue but at peak times, all buses that use this route (207, 216, 220 and 223 - all of which I use) can get really blocked off. If you're coming down the Carrigaline Road by the cemetery on one of these, it can take 20 minutes to get from by Barrys to the flyover. Recently this happened to me (around 200m) and it then took 5-10 minutes to get from the flyover to the junction of Capwell Road and High Street (around 2.5km). They should install lights for the relief road getting through the junction. To make it better, have it like I believe they have it on the Link where the lights only change when a bus pulls up. This way it is still freeflow as normal but buses can get through much easier. This would speed up bus times a lot


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,342 ✭✭✭ hans aus dtschl


    cgcsb wrote: »

    Most of CMATs can be delivered a lot quicker than a new motorway scheme. The Dunkettle interchange and CMATs will completely change the game. Add in demand management on the existing N40 and we could find the CNRR isn't needed at all.

    I'm not as convinced about that, a NRR corridor has already been proposed in the past, whereas the political discussion of an East-West tram hasn't even begun to take place. I can see some of the bus corridors being delivered and some not, due to objections. A new train station's been proposed at Kilbarry since the early 2000's and still no movement whatsoever.

    I'm 100% in favour of sustainable transport, but I'm not sure that Cork would get central government expenditure on a quality sustainable transport scheme, as Dublin struggles to draw down such funding. Cork's not top of the priority list, by a long way.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,194 ✭✭✭ cgcsb


    I'm not as convinced about that, a NRR corridor has already been proposed in the past, whereas the political discussion of an East-West tram hasn't even begun to take place. I can see some of the bus corridors being delivered and some not, due to objections. A new train station's been proposed at Kilbarry since the early 2000's and still no movement whatsoever.

    I'm 100% in favour of sustainable transport, but I'm not sure that Cork would get central government expenditure on a quality sustainable transport scheme, as Dublin struggles to draw down such funding. Cork's not top of the priority list, by a long way.

    Funding is key hear you're right the proposed network of cycle ways will have far greater impacts on tackling congestion than CNRR

    I do think it will e required when the M20 is built for the sake of connectivity. I don't think it's in anyway critical for CMATS though.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,342 ✭✭✭ hans aus dtschl


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Funding is key hear you're right the proposed network of cycle ways will have far greater impacts on tackling congestion than CNRR

    Yes. I don't want to be the one always saying this because I have a vested interest as a cyclist, but do I believe that we need to put in quality cycle corridors N-S and E-W.

    All of my interactions with the county council on this have been extremely negative: they appear to have neither the will nor the ability to provide quality cycle infrastructure. The city is slightly better, in that they have the will but not the ability.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,194 ✭✭✭ cgcsb


    Yes. I don't want to be the one always saying this because I have a vested interest as a cyclist, but do I believe that we need to put in quality cycle corridors N-S and E-W.

    All of my interactions with the county council on this have been extremely negative: they appear to have neither the will nor the ability to provide quality cycle infrastructure. The city is slightly better, in that they have the will but not the ability.

    Cork is actually pretty good in this regard, I'd say even better than Dublin, All other Irish cities are write offs for cycling.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭✭✭ BazzFan123


    The county I believe are going for planning for a greenway (?) from the Carrigaline Road by the entrance to Maryborough Woods, under the N28 and out into Maryborough Ridge and the new Maryborough Hill/Garryduff Road roundabout


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,234 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21


    No sign of CMATS yet but a skeleton of it seems to have made it into the Draft Regional Spatial Strategy for the Southern Region:

    Here are the main points:

    1. Light rail: A strategic east-west public transport corridor from Mahon to Ballincollig via the City Centre, serving CIT, CUH, UCC, Kent Station, Docklands, Mahon Point. The corridor requires development consolidation along it at appropriate nodal points for a high capacity service

    2. Heavy rail: Enhanced commuter rail services:
    a. P&R and new station at Blarney/Stone View
    b. New station for Monard SDZ
    c. New station to regenerate/intensify Blackpool/Kilbarry
    d. Kent Station interchange between walking/cycling/bus/light rail
    e. New station at Tivoli Docks
    f. P&R and new station at Dunkettle
    g. Improved services to Cobh via better signalling and new bus interchange station at Ballynoe
    h. Improved services to Midleton including new station at Carrigtwohill West, dual track and new station Water Rock.
    i. Long term aim of services Midleton-Youghal however maintain track by constructing greenway

    3. Core Bus Network: A comprehensive network of high frequency bus services providing radial services to other corridors and orbital services
    across the network. Delivery of Cork BusConnects network, Core Radial Bus Network, Orbital Bus Network, Cross City Network, Supporting Radial Bus Services, Bus Priority, Regional Bus Networks and Metropolitan Town Bus Services are all key components.

    4. Movement Strategy: Delivery of the Cork City Centre Movement Strategy 2018-2024

    5. Walking: Make Cork the most walkable city in Ireland, implement and further develop upon the Cork City Walking Strategy 2013-2018 and strengthen the role of walking through improved walking network, district and neighbourhood walking networks, city and town centre accessibility

    6. Cycling: Implement and further develop upon the Cork Metropolitan Area Cycle Network Plan 2017, improve and develop primary, secondary, greenway and feeder cycle networks and support cycling through infrastructures including cycle lanes, cycle parking, cycle hire schemes (Cork City Cycle Hire Scheme) and facilities in places of work

    7. Public Transport Integration: provision for interchange opportunities together with information provision and revised fare structures;

    8. Road Network Improvements: Improvements to the road network to support the sustainable growth of the metropolitan area, while also providing appropriate strategic provision for the movement of goods. Investment in the road network supports sustainable travel modes (walking, cycling, bus networks), supports strategic inter urban and inter regional freight traffic, especially between ports and airports. Improvements discourage secondary local trip and urban expansion based on road corridors. Strategic road corridors identified by separate objective

    9. Other Strategic Road Priorities will include implementation of City Centre Movement Strategy, Cork Docklands and Tivoli Docks bridge
    (South Docks Eastern Gateway Bridge, Mill Road) and road infrastructure (South Docks and North Docks Roads, Tivoli Access).

    10. Management of freight around metropolitan Cork, enabled through Port of Cork relocation to Ringaskiddy, construction, logistics and delivery centre

    11. Supporting Measures: Further measures to support the delivery of the Strategy, including parking management, Park and Ride, demand
    management, mobility management, behavioural change programmes, etc

    Roads: (here for show but best to discuss in Roads forum)

    1. Advancing orbital traffic management solutions, through the implementation of appropriate demand management measures,
    on the N40 and provision of alternative local roads, as deemed necessary. Specific measures should not be introduced in isolation, but only after due consideration of the impacts on access and movement across the city and suburbs, and progressed in parallel with the introduction of the necessary appropriate alternatives to service affected traffic movements

    2. Enhanced regional connectivity through improved average journey times by road to Limerick and Waterford via proposed M20 Limerick to Cork and the targeted enhancement of the N25 between Cork and Waterford

    3. Improved connectivity from Cork City to Cork Airport (including dedicated public transport corridor)

    4. Dunkettle Interchange

    5. Cork Northern Ring Road connecting the N22 to the M8 (identified in the NDP as a complementary scheme to the M20).

    6. Cork Northern Distributor Road

    7. Access to Monard SDZ

    8. Cork City Docks and Tivoli Bridge and Street Infrastructure (including Eastern Gateway Bridge) Cork Docklands infrastructure is a key enabler for Cork under the NPF

    9. Improved N22, N25, N27, N71 Inter Regional and Intra Regional corridors.

    10. Upgrade of the R624 Regional Road Linking N25 to Marino Point
    and Cobh

    11. Upgrade of the R630 Regional Road linking Midleton to Whitegate Road (Energy Hub).

    12. Cork Science and Innovation Park Access (a key enabler for Cork under the NPF)

    13. Transport packages including road upgrades, relief roads, enhanced public realm, walking and cycling infrastructure for metropolitan towns and urban expansion areas.

    14. North East Orbital Road (access for residential lands and public transport infrastructure Ballyvolane

    15. Advancing transport study measures for Little Island.

    https://www.southernassembly.ie/uploads/general-files/Draft_RSES_2018_-_WEB.pdf


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,234 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,342 ✭✭✭ hans aus dtschl


    As I mentioned in the other thread, I received no comms from them at all.

    The original plan wasn't great IMO: the western entrance to Midleton already sees queues on the N25 and they were claiming that the new development wouldn't see any queuing whatsoever. Carrigtwohill will become the mother of all rat-runs now.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,234 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21


    https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/Cork-should-have-its-own-transport-authority-to-develop-public-transport--b746dc1f-8cba-4cd4-8ff7-526651a3f84c-ds

    A timely reminder that the NTA's remit is to implement Government policy. It's not the NTA's fault if the Government aren't providing them with the resources they need.


  • Registered Users Posts: 322 ✭✭ Frostybrew


    marno21 wrote: »
    https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/Cork-should-have-its-own-transport-authority-to-develop-public-transport--b746dc1f-8cba-4cd4-8ff7-526651a3f84c-ds

    A timely reminder that the NTA's remit is to implement Government policy. It's not the NTA's fault if the Government aren't providing them with the resources they need.

    Good to see it's being brought up. Hopefully there will be some reference to the concept in CMATS.


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  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,234 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21


    Frostybrew wrote: »
    Good to see it's being brought up. Hopefully there will be some reference to the concept in CMATS.
    I think it would be better to leave the NTA in charge of it to be honest. I don't see the need for regional transport authorities, one properly resourced one would be better. Of course, close relationships with the local authorities is important too

    The model seems to work for TII/ex NTA.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,096 ✭✭✭ snotboogie


    cgcsb wrote: »
    The NCCR could well be an overkill project, CMATS as it stands will remove tens of thousands of cars from the existing N40, some demand management could restore the road to it's original function:

    -Close Douglas and Pouladuff Rd exists
    -Introduce a Toll

    Then the N40 reverts to being a national road for intercity trips and HGVs. Bus and Luas services will get more people East-West across the urban area more efficiently.
    Once CMATs is fully in place and there is demand management on the N40 then revisit the CNRR project if it's needed. No doubt it will be needed when the M20 is complete, if ever.

    Which Douglas exit?


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,042 ✭✭✭✭ namloc1980


    This still on the long finger? Another month passes by without any sign of the report being published.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,234 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    This still on the long finger? Another month passes by without any sign of the report being published.

    Shane Ross said "shortly" last week.

    Best to assume September and take any early release as a bonus.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,418 ✭✭✭ Curb Your Enthusiasm


    marno21 wrote: »
    Shane Ross said "shortly" last week.

    Best to assume September and take any early release as a bonus.

    He's an awful bluffer and has proved to be a useless Minister. Anything to please his local constituents and focuses on anything but transport. A disgrace really.


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,211 Mod ✭✭✭✭ CatInABox


    marno21 wrote: »
    Shane Ross said "shortly" last week.

    Best to assume September and take any early release as a bonus.

    It's also been renamed the Cork and Stepaside Metropolitan Area Transport Strategy.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,995 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    marno21 wrote: »
    I think it would be better to leave the NTA in charge of it to be honest. I don't see the need for regional transport authorities, one properly resourced one would be better. Of course, close relationships with the local authorities is important too

    The model seems to work for TII/ex NTA.

    Yes, I'd say the better option would be for the NTA to be better financed and have separate dedicated sub-groups, like the CTA, GTA, etc. as part of the NTA, but with offices actually in Cork, Galway, etc.

    I mean it wouldn't make any sense for a dedicated CTA to go a different route on things like Leap, RTPI, Apps, etc. Better for them to just use the already developed national infrastructure of the NTA. But having a local office, with local people who actually understand what is happening on the ground in Cork, etc. and can make and drive local focused plans, while making use of the NTA's larger resources is the way to go IMO.

    BTW The NTA already work closely with the various local city and county councils, but they are even worse financed then the NTA.


  • Registered Users Posts: 319 ✭✭ Treehelpplease


    This needs to hurry up so the Docklands LAPs can come out...


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,418 ✭✭✭ Curb Your Enthusiasm


    Is that open to the public?


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