Is this inappropriate behaviour at work?

Casualcontrol1

There is a doctor at work and I think he is acting inappropriately. He asked a patient one day were his boood sugars going high because of the nurse (me) or because of something else. Ever since he keeps asking me in front of the other doctors stupid silly questions about blood sugars and even asking in front of patients then laughing and giving a smirking smile.

He was going to see a patient today and looking for the drug card and he came out of the room and asked me where it was and I said ‘I have it I’m coming’ as in I’m coming in to accompany him and he looked and me smirking/ smiling and said ‘oh you are coming yea’. It sounds so innocent and immature but it felt sexually orientated to me. Plus another doctor has also picked up and asked me about it.

I am being silly and this is harmless or is it potentially inappropriate and unprofessional?

iamwhoiam

I would worry more about his abiity as a doctor than he should know that blood sugars don't rise for that reason ?

Casualcontrol1

iamwhoiam wrote: »

I would worry more about his abiity as a doctor than he should know that blood sugars don't rise for that reason ?

He was obviously joking. That’s irrelevant. Can we please stick to topic?

Mr. Incognito

I'd tell him firmly that you expect it to stop.

If he doesnt escalate a complaint to HR for harrasement.

iamwhoiam

Casualcontrol1 wrote: »

He was obviously joking. That’s irrelevant. Can we please stick to topic?

Fair enough . But no need to be rude . Complain to your CNM and report it. Its not only inappropriate towards you it's inappropriate towards patients in my opinion

blue note

Tell him you don't like the joke and ask him not to make those again to you. If you go staight to hr with it, it could open up a can of worms for you and him for what is most likely a joke (or possibly flirting) falling flat.

If there are problems with this guy in general being inappropriate, or if there's more to it than what you're saying it could be different. But if it's just that joke he's made a couple of times, try letting him know you don't like it before hitting any nuclear option.

Casualcontrol1

What are you guys thoughts on the comment made today, about “you are coming yea” I know it sounds childish when I say it out like this but I know it was definitely sexually orientated. Girls how would react if a male colleague made a reference to you ?

blue note

Casualcontrol1 wrote: »

What are you guys thoughts on the comment made today, about “you are coming yea” I know it sounds childish when I say it out like this but I know it was definitely sexually orientated. Girls how would react if a male colleague made a reference to you ?

It sounds like a joke. Some guys and girls make them and they come out right, some make them and they don't. Some people find them funny and some find them inappropriate. It's very easy to misread how your jokes are being taken. Personally, I stay away from making them in work in case they're taken the wrong way. But I hear others make them and they can make the office a more friendly place when they work,make the days pass quicker.

Clearly you don't like them though, so tell him that. I'd hope the intention isn't to make you feel uncomfortable, so he should stop.

If you tell him clearly and it doesn't stop, then I'd start with an informal chat to hr for advice.

.......

Report it to HR.

That someone else picked up on it and questioned you about it shows that it is being noticed by other people too. No doubt he is behaving this way towards others too - not just you.

And yes, sexual innuendo and jokes about your attractiveness or gender are inappropriate at work.

Rubberchikken

it sounds inappropriate especially in a work setting.
maybe he thinks he's being funny but if others are finding it a little off then maybe a chat with hr might be needed.

Jurgen Klopp

Ah look I'm as against the easily offended types as you can get but the fella sounds like a fukin creep and I think it's extremely unprofessional tbh in a working environment

If it was out of working hours socially while still childish at least you could say he was trying to taking the piss if ye are friends

But no way at work and if ye aren't friends then it's weird too

jimmycrackcorm

....... wrote:

Report it to HR.

Before gathering a posse to hound him out of town, maybe just simply say to him that his comments come across as inappropriate in a professional environment and make things uncomfortable.

strandroad

Definitely inappropriate. I doubt the patients are enjoying it either. If he's a reasonable type otherwise, have a short but firm word with him to stop.

Hoboo

It's clear cut sexual harrassment.

Firstly document everything. Try to write down all of the dates, times, location, who was there, who might have witnessed/heard the comments, and exactly what happened to the best of your memory. Do it as soon as possible in future. Can't stress the importance of recorded information.

Tell him you find it inappropriate, unprofessional, and expect it to cease immediately. Maybe ask the other person who noticed it to be present. He'll take it more seriously.

If it continues or he makes a joke of it, then make a complaint. Last thing he'll want on his record so hopefully it won't be necessary. Best of luck.

Xterminator

jesus all the people saying go to HR, and trying to get him fired etc. as a first course of action!

would you not tell him firmly that you are not amused, and can he keep his mind out of the gutter.

if he persists with this behavior, by all means report him, but in the adult world i suggest you deal with the situation directly; or at least attempt it first.

wiggle16

It's not really about whether or not this is an acceptable thing in a work environment in general. There are constant sexual jokes made in my workplace, between the men and women. But we all know each other very well and theres only about a dozen or so of us, so it's banter in our case.

In your case you are being made feel uncomfortable and it's obviously not the same dynamic in your workplace as mine. If another doctor asked how you felt about it I would suspect you are not the only person he does this to either.

I would take him aside and firmly say that you are not comfortable with that kind of comment, it's not appropriate, especially in a public facing environment, and you expect it not to happen again.

.......

Xterminator wrote: »

jesus all the people saying go to HR, and trying to get him fired etc. as a first course of action!

would you not tell him firmly that you are not amused, and can he keep his mind out of the gutter.

if he persists with this behavior, by all means report him, but in the adult world i suggest you deal with the situation directly; or at least attempt it first.

eh, HR wont fire him because someone reports that he has been making inappropriate comments a few times. Im not sure what you think HR is!!

I would see it as important to report it because even if the OP tells him to cut it out and he does - with her - he will probably continue this behaviour with more vulnerable staff who are afraid to speak up. Better to get a record of it with HR IMO.

They may decide to respond with general training for all new staff which includes and "appropriate behaviour in the workplace" session. They may decide to speak to him. They may decide to do nothing but then if someone else complains they will be able to see a pattern.

wiggle16

....... wrote: »

I would see it as important to report it because even if the OP tells him to cut it out and he does - with her - he will probably continue this behaviour with more vulnerable staff who are afraid to speak up. Better to get a record of it with HR IMO.

I agree with you in general but I think going to HR might be premature in this case, obviously it depends on how the OP feels though. He sounds more like a bit of an eejit and immature rather than malicious.

Once something is said to HR it cant be taken back, and the first thing they will ask will be "did you attempt to resolve this with your colleague?" If it were me I would try to nip it in the bud myself before escalating it to HR, and keep a diary of it if needs be.

But anything after that, get HR involved.

.......

wiggle16 wrote: »

I agree with you in general but I think going to HR might be premature in this case, obviously it depends on how the OP feels though. He sounds more like a bit of an eejit and immature rather than malicious.

I hear you but in my opinion (given the context) he has crossed the line by behaving this way in front of patients.

Its no longer just him making the OP uncomfortable, its him behaving inappropriately with patients. And it has been picked up on by other staff (who may already be complaining), so overall, Id be notifying HR - even if I wasnt making a formal complaint.

Toots

Keep a log of all the times and dates etc. Tell him his comments aren’t appropriate and that you want him to stop (make a note of the date and time you do this, also) With any luck he’ll be mortified and apologise and that’ll be the end of it.

If it continues, you can take it to HR and the log you’ve kept af all the instances will definitely add credence to your claim.

splinter65

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Fair enough . But no need to be rude . Complain to your CNM and report it. Its not only inappropriate towards you it's inappropriate towards patients in my opinion

Why does she have to complain him? Why can’t she just tell him to stop talking nonsense, it’s not funny and it’s not professional?

iamwhoiam

splinter65 wrote: »

Why does she have to complain him? Why can’t she just tell him to stop talking nonsense, it’s not funny and it’s not professional?

Because her Clinical Nurse Manager ( formerly Ward Sister ) should be aware of it and guide her in how to approach it

splinter65

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Because her Clinical Nurse Manager ( formerly Ward Sister ) should be aware of it and guide her in how to approach it

But it’s pretty clear to me how to approach it. If someone is annoying you in the workplace you tell them straight out that it’s annoying you, you want them to cease forthwith, and if they don’t cease you’ll have to take it further up the line.
When did people start needing someone else to deal with these situations? Where do you draw the line? Why aren’t adults able to cope with everyday life?
He’s a prat clearly but he at least should have it pointed out to him that he’s being a prat and be given a chance to stop being a prat before a permanent record of his pratishness is established.
Well and good if he disregards the warming then go after him bald headed but I’m frankly aghast at the idea that a modern woman in the workplace needs to run to her manager with a complaint like this.

iamwhoiam

splinter65 wrote: »

But it’s pretty clear to me how to approach it. If someone is annoying you in the workplace you tell them straight out that it’s annoying you, you want them to cease forthwith, and if they don’t cease you’ll have to take it further up the line.
When did people start needing someone else to deal with these situations? Where do you draw the line? Why aren’t adults able to cope with everyday life?
He’s a prat clearly but he at least should have it pointed out to him that he’s being a prat and be given a chance to stop being a prat before a permanent record of his pratishness is established.
Well and good if he disregards the warming then go after him bald headed but I’m frankly aghast at the idea that a modern woman in the workplace needs to run to her manager with a complaint like this.

Personally I would listen to my Clinical Nurse Manager as to how ai approach him rather than some random person on a message board . When patients are involved and being dragged into it its vital the CNM is aware .I never mentioned it going on his record

Lux23

Casualcontrol1 wrote: »

What are you guys thoughts on the comment made today, about “you are coming yea” I know it sounds childish when I say it out like this but I know it was definitely sexually orientated. Girls how would react if a male colleague made a reference to you ?

I might ask them what they mean by it, but to be honest dirtbags like this should probably be reported as they're unlikely to just stop because you stand up to them.

splinter65

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Personally I would listen to my Clinical Nurse Manager as to how ai approach him rather than some random person on a message board . When patients are involved and being dragged into it its vital the CNM is aware .I never mentioned it going on his record

As soon as you mention it to a manager a note must be taken. My point is that I simply can’t understand why adults (and professional educated adults at that) can no longer deal with interpersonal professional relationships themselves.
My brother was the manager of a medium sized civil service office towards the end of his career but took early retirement when he realized that the day was going to be filled with hearing nonsense complaints about what amounted to normal social interaction.
The person at the next desk to you squeezes your shoulder every time she walks past you? Well, the next time she does it, ask her to stop! Simple!

iamwhoiam

splinter65 wrote: »

As soon as you mention it to a manager a note must be taken. My point is that I simply can’t understand why adults (and professional educated adults at that) can no longer deal with interpersonal professional relationships themselves.
My brother was the manager of a medium sized civil service office towards the end of his career but took early retirement when he realized that the day was going to be filled with hearing nonsense complaints about what amounted to normal social interaction.
The person at the next desk to you squeezes your shoulder every time she walks past you? Well, the next time she does it, ask her to stop! Simple!

Well where patients are involved its a whole different matter for me . So we can disagree and argue but for me the patients come first

wiggle16

Mod note:

No more general discussion in the thread please. You should be sure that your advice is relevant to the OPs issue before posting. Thanks

shesty

Yeah I think it's inappropriate.
Actually considering it, it's really very inappropriate.
I would say it to him, but I think I would also mention it quietly to the manager referred to.Purely because, well you want back up in these things, if it goes down an unpleasant route with HR or whatever.
I don't think saying it to HR-yet- is the right course of action.
The more I think about it OP, the more annoyed I am on your behalf.I work in a very male environment, for many years, and no comments like that have ever been passed to me.The guy is way out of order.

facehugger99

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Before gathering a posse to hound him out of town, maybe just simply say to him that his comments come across as inappropriate in a professional environment and make things uncomfortable.

Absolutely - one wonders if some of the advice givers on this forum are running to HR every 10 minutes.

blairbear

It is not as simple as just having a one on one chat with him. Depending on how senior he is (he could be a registrar/SpR) and how newly qualified the OP is, the power dynamic can be quite unequal; a lot of doctors, particularly male, would see themselves as being in a position of authority over nurses.

I'm a doctor myself in a HSE hospital, OP. I'm a senior registrar now but as an intern and SHO, these kind of comments seemed to be commonplace on the wards. There is a big difference between having a bit of craic with a colleague you are very friendly with and making sexually charged remarks to a nurse in a professional environment. It is totally unacceptable.

You need to have a chat with your CNM. What will likely happen is that she'll ask you to write an incident report, or put the complaint in writing, and it will be brought to the attention of HR and his consultant. Usually the consultant is asked to have a chat with the NCHD first. There is no way anyone is going to get sacked by the way. A surgical SHO that I worked with sexually harassed upwards of 20 different doctors and nurses over the course of a year and it was treated like a big joke by his team; there's quite the "boys will be boys" attitude prevalent in certain specialties.

HR will speak to him; they are obliged to follow up on any complaint and address it directly. The odd time the culprit receives additional training in what is/isn't appropriate at work.

Unless he is a total eejit, it should make him stop.

You were made feel uncomfortable and belittled by somebody who should be treating you with respect. Why on earth would you put up with it? My main regret from my more junior years as a doctor is not speaking up when I was bullied or harassed. This isn't a difference in sense of humour or a misunderstanding, OP. He was totally out of line.

Hope you're okay.

Casualcontrol1

blairbear wrote: »

It is not as simple as just having a one on one chat with him. Depending on how senior he is (he could be a registrar/SpR) and how newly qualified the OP is, the power dynamic can be quite unequal; a lot of doctors, particularly male, would see themselves as being in a position of authority over nurses.

I'm a doctor myself in a HSE hospital, OP. I'm a senior registrar now but as an intern and SHO, these kind of comments seemed to be commonplace on the wards. There is a big difference between having a bit of craic with a colleague you are very friendly with and making sexually charged remarks to a nurse in a professional environment. It is totally unacceptable.

You need to have a chat with your CNM. What will likely happen is that she'll ask you to write an incident report, or put the complaint in writing, and it will be brought to the attention of HR and his consultant. Usually the consultant is asked to have a chat with the NCHD first. There is no way anyone is going to get sacked by the way. A surgical SHO that I worked with sexually harassed upwards of 20 different doctors and nurses over the course of a year and it was treated like a big joke by his team; there's quite the "boys will be boys" attitude prevalent in certain specialties.

HR will speak to him; they are obliged to follow up on any complaint and address it directly. The odd time the culprit receives additional training in what is/isn't appropriate at work.

Unless he is a total eejit, it should make him stop.

You were made feel uncomfortable and belittled by somebody who should be treating you with respect. Why on earth would you put up with it? My main regret from my more junior years as a doctor is not speaking up when I was bullied or harassed. This isn't a difference in sense of humour or a misunderstanding, OP. He was totally out of line.

Hope you're okay.

Thank you all for your comments. Blairbear he is a senior reg but very authoritative by nature and assertive. If it were one to one comments it would be different but certain comments were made in front of the team on a ward round when the consultant wasn’t there of course. I am not prudish I get he means no harm it’s just his way of flirting but to do it in front of the team or other patients is what makes me uncomfortable. To me it looks unprofessional and can place doubt in a patients mind about our credibility as professionals. In addition I don’t want the team or nurses talking and thinking something is going on etc. Plus it has gone to a stage where I don’t like going on a ward round because of fear of what he’ll say. I am a little intimidated by him and feel if I said anything to him he would make life difficult for me as he is a very bossy sharp character and can get frustrated easily.
The other day he tried to get another doctor in the team involved in the’flirting’ but he knew about this already and told him in his language to stop going on about it and just get on with the work. He said he hasn’t really spoken to him since

iamwhoiam

Blairbear is right , your first port of call is your CNM . You will be guided by her/ him as how to proceed and handle it . A Senior Reg will not bow easily to a " quiet word " from you and this could be a pattern he uses on others . Harassment is rarely an isolated case so its needs to be addressed .
A senior Reg asking a patient if his sugars are high due to a nurse in the room just makes me roll my eyes . I mean how inappropriate for the patient never mind the nurse .

December2012

To me it doesn't sound like flirting.

Flirting is trying to get a person to like you. It sounds like this Dr is trying to embarrass you.

Hoboo

facehugger99 wrote: »

Absolutely - one wonders if some of the advice givers on this forum are running to HR every 10 minutes.

You wouldn't believe what it's like in reality, and it's generally those born after 1995.

iamwhoiam

Hoboo wrote: »

You wouldn't believe what it's like in reality, and it's generally those born after 1995.

I was born way way way before 95 but would run to HR or the Pope if I needed to protect my patients from being made feel uneasy . Sometimes its very necessary when vulnerable people are being made feel uncomfortable

wiggle16

Hoboo wrote: »

You wouldn't believe what it's like in reality, and it's generally those born after 1995.

Mod warning:

Fatuous and unhelpful generalisation that says enough about your experience (and probable lack thereof) of working with under-25's, Hoboo. If you don't have advice for the OP, don't post. It's that simple.

I've already posted a note on thread requesting no more general discussion. Any further back and forth of this type will be actioned.

ZzubZzub

I’m a CNM in an ED so I understand the setting.

Bottom line, it’s innapropriate.

Now, I’ll be honest. There are other nurses/doctors that I’d have a friendship as well as a professional relationship and with those would count that as banter (our type of humour!) but it’s never in ear shot of patients and rarely in front of other colleagues because some people find that kind of joke offensive.

If you find it uncomfortable, then you need to say something. I don’t feel that it matters what position he’s in, junior/senior doctor/nurse/cleaner. We are a team.

You could, if you feel comfortable doing so, pull him aside and privately say that you know he means no harm but you don’t appreciate those kind of comments and would prefer to keep things friendly but always professional.

I personally would base my next action on his reaction. He could apologise, and it could make him think about his behaviour and the comments would stop.

If he doesn’t take your feeling on board and continues, then I would talk to my manager and ask what you’re next step would be and making it more formal.

At the end of the day, no one should be made to feel uncomfortable at work. Especially in healthcare, we take enough from the public without having to take it from our professional colleagues.

Best of luck.

laserlad2010

OP, as a male senior registrar myself (full disclosure - no inappropriate comments from my end!) you have the balance of power. It absolutely does not matter what personality traits he has, or what position he holds - as a permanent member of staff with the full backing of the entire hospital nursing cohort (I mean come on, your CNM will bring it to the ADON at the drop of a hat and then he is in huge trouble) you hold ALL the power.

This guy has, at most, a year contract. His consultant WILL NOT BACK HIM. His consultant will take one look at the ward staff who look after his patients constantly, and then at this fella who is just one in a long line of a carousel of registrars (woah I'm getting depressed here), and he will back the status quo.

FWIW, I have openly upbraided doctors and nurses for acting unprofessionally to each other and I can bet you that this guy's behaviour is NOT condoned, but people aren't speaking out.

Go to your CNM. ASAP