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RSA ad on unaccompanied L drivers

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    #542
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    brightspark wrote: »
    Driving unaccompanied while on a learner permit has been an offence since about 2010, possibly earlier.

    What has now happened is the owner of the vehicle is also going to be penalised (rightly so for allowing it to be used illegally).

    While the RSA can advise on legal penalties etc., the obligation to comply with the law is up to the individuals and the enforcement is the responsibility of the Gardai. So not sure where they RSA have been negligent?

    I don't agree with the penalties for the owners of the vehicle as what if the learner is using the car without the permission of the owner. Also it brings in the possibility of the owner claiming the car was stolen it just seems poorly thought out to me.

    The RSA in my mind are a bit of a ridiculous organisation they come across to me as a lobby group with the powers of the government. It should be up to the Department of Transport or AGS directly not outsourced to another agency with more wages pensions etc.


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    #543
    brightspark
    Registered Users Posts: 2,637 ✭✭✭brightspark


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    I don't agree with the penalties for the owners of the vehicle as what if the learner is using the car without the permission of the owner. Also it brings in the possibility of the owner claiming the car was stolen it just seems poorly thought out to me.

    If the learner is using the car without permission they have effectively stolen it.

    Stephen15 wrote: »
    The RSA in my mind are a bit of a ridiculous organisation they come across to me as a lobby group with the powers of the government. It should be up to the Department of Transport or AGS directly not outsourced to another agency with more wages pensions etc.

    Perhaps as you say the Department of Transport could fulfill the same functions, no doubt they would need extra staff so the outcome would be the same.
    AGS function is to enforce the law, not create it.


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    #544
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,446 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    I don't agree with the penalties for the owners of the vehicle as what if the learner is using the car without the permission of the owner. Also it brings in the possibility of the owner claiming the car was stolen it just seems poorly thought out to me.
    it's quite simple though; if the owner wants to claim it's been stolen, they'll have to have filed a report to this effect with the gardai. and have accused their son/daughter/whoever of car theft. it's not like this is a get out of jail free card.


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    #545
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    unless someone can prove me wrong - it used to be the case that someone on a second provisional did not need someone with them. but subsequent to the second licence, you did need a qualified driver to accompany you.




    might be this : ?

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2006/en/si/0537.html#article17

    (b)

    (iv) vehicles of category B, C1, C, D1, D, EB, EC1, EC, ED1 or ED, shall not drive such a vehicle unless he or she is accompanied by and is under the supervision of a qualified person,



    (c) The condition set out in subparagraph (b)(iv) does not apply -



    (II) during the period of validity of a second provisional licence granted to him or her in respect of such a vehicle.




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    #546
    Isambard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭Isambard


    if the Owner states it was being used without permission, presumably the L driver gets charged with the equivalent of theft. If the Owner says he did have permission, then he's in trouble as well as the L driver


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    #547
    dense
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,175 ✭✭✭dense


    pablo128 wrote: »
    Why would the RSA clamp down on unaccompanied driving? That's a job for gardai.

    OK, we'll say it's the fault of the gardai for not clamping down on unaccompanied learners and ignoring the RSA which has been whining about it for the last ten years.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/rsa-warns-against-hysteria-on-new-laws-1.825170?mode=amp

    No plan to crack down on L-drivers
    GARDAÍ HAVE no plans to specifically target unaccompanied learner drivers from next Tuesday.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/motors/no-plan-to-crack-down-on-l-drivers-1.1271803?mode=amp

    Pity, a crackdown could have saved lives, couldn't it?


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    #548
    dense
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,175 ✭✭✭dense


    gctest50 wrote: »
    might be this : ?

    That ostensibly ended 10 years ago.


    GARDAÍ HAVE no plans to specifically target unaccompanied learner drivers from next Tuesday.

    From midnight on July 1st, the loophole allowing second learner permit holders to drive unaccompanied will close.

    From that date, all learner drivers must be accompanied by a driver holding a full-licence for at least two years.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/motors/no-plan-to-crack-down-on-l-drivers-1.1271803?mode=amp


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    #549
    ayux4rj6zql2ph
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭ayux4rj6zql2ph


    Article from last summer.

    The RSA plan a crackdown on people applying for the test and not turning up, purely so they can renew a learner permit.

    It was meant to coincide with the Clancy legislation.

    http://theliberal.ie/rsa-to-eliminate-loophole-that-allows-learner-drivers-to-avoid-taking-driving-test/


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    #550
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Isambard wrote: »
    if the Owner states it was being used without permission, presumably the L driver gets charged with the equivalent of theft. If the Owner says he did have permission, then he's in trouble as well as the L driver

    But the owner could lie and say the learner didn't have permission effectively feeding them to the wolves even if they gave permission. Or they could say to the learner you drive but if you get caught your on your own.


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    #551
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Parker Clever Sextant wrote: »
    Article from last summer.

    The RSA plan a crackdown on people applying for the test and not turning up, purely so they can renew a learner permit.

    It was meant to coincide with the Clancy legislation.

    http://theliberal.ie/rsa-to-eliminate-loophole-that-allows-learner-drivers-to-avoid-taking-driving-test/

    I don't understand why people book a test and then not bother showing as they paid €85 for it. Surely they should just do it and if on the off chance they pass they could get a full licence as an unintended consequence.


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    #552
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    But the owner could lie and say the learner didn't have permission effectively feeding them to the wolves even if they gave permission. Or they could say to the learner you drive but if you get caught your on your own.


    But it was them who set off alone, knowing they would be would be thrown to the wolves

    They would deserve every bit of what they get


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    #553
    ayux4rj6zql2ph
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭ayux4rj6zql2ph


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    I don't understand why people book a test and then not bother showing as they paid €85 for it. Surely they should just do it and if on the off chance they pass they could get a full licence as an unintended consequence.

    Some will say they haven’t a hope, the system is rigged or something similar. Look at the guy in Cork who has attempted it 15 times and even brought the RSA to court.


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    #554
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    gctest50 wrote: »
    But it was them who set off alone, knowing they would be would be thrown to the wolves

    They would deserve every bit of what they get

    Yes I'm not denying that. I'm talking about the law confiscating vehicles being driven by learners but not owned by the learner. No one is going to own up to saying they gave someone permission to drive their if it's going to involve getting their car confiscated or fined etc.


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    #555
    ayux4rj6zql2ph
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭ayux4rj6zql2ph


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Yes I'm not denying that. I'm talking about the law confiscating vehicles being driven by learners but not owned by the learner. No one is going to own up to saying they gave someone permission to drive their if it's going to involve getting their car confiscated or fined etc.

    If the car is registered to someone else they either fess up to handing it over or the driver is done for TWOC


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    #556
    brightspark
    Registered Users Posts: 2,637 ✭✭✭brightspark


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Yes I'm not denying that. I'm talking about the law confiscating vehicles being driven by learners but not owned by the learner. No one is going to own up to saying they gave someone permission to drive their if it's going to involve getting their car confiscated or fined etc.

    The alternative is to have the person charged with theft!


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    #557
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    brightspark wrote: »
    The alternative is to have the person charged with theft!

    I'm sure people would do that. It's just creating more your word v my word scenario. It's ridiculous unenforceable law.


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    #558
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    brightspark wrote: »
    The alternative is to have the person charged with theft!

    DOAD

    Driving Without Accompanying Driver


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    #559
    RacoonQueen
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 20,364 Mod ✭✭✭✭RacoonQueen


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    I don't understand why people book a test and then not bother showing as they paid €85 for it. Surely they should just do it and if on the off chance they pass they could get a full licence as an unintended consequence.

    Yeah it's a bit stupid €85 + whatever a learner permit renewal is, every two (?) years, versus, €85 + cost of full licence. Then just renewal cost every ten years.


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    #560
    ayux4rj6zql2ph
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭ayux4rj6zql2ph


    RacoonQueen wrote: »
    Yeah it's a bit stupid €85 + whatever a learner permit renewal is, every two (?) years, versus, €85 + cost of full licence. Then just renewal cost every ten years.

    €35 each time


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    #561
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,446 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    I'm sure people would do that. It's just creating more your word v my word scenario. It's ridiculous unenforceable law.
    i don't see what's difficult about it.
    to the car owner: 'do you want to proceed with initiating criminal proceedings against the person who took your car?' is a simple enough yes/no question, and the yes/no outcome determines how fines are levied.


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    #562
    RacoonQueen
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 20,364 Mod ✭✭✭✭RacoonQueen


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    i don't see what's difficult about it.
    to the car owner: 'do you want to proceed with initiating criminal proceedings against the person who took your car?' is a simple enough yes/no question, and the yes/no outcome determines how fines are levied.

    When it's your kid though. Tough question to answer.

    Learner drivers who have their own cars, of which many do, are pretty much unaffected by the change. They have come out time and time again saying they will crack down on learner drivers driving unaccompanied and they never seem to.


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    #563
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Another possibility is that people will change their cars to their children's or friends names in order to avoid having their vehicle taken. There are ways to get around it


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    #564
    ayux4rj6zql2ph
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭ayux4rj6zql2ph


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Another possibility is that people will change their cars to their children's or friends names in order to avoid having their vehicle taken. There are ways to get around it

    Doesn’t matter whose name the car is in, if they drive alone, car seized.


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    #565
    RacoonQueen
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 20,364 Mod ✭✭✭✭RacoonQueen


    Parker Clever Sextant wrote: »
    €35 each time

    That's €120 quid a year for third one onwards :eek: Would make more sense to just do the test and fail it to at least get the two year permit.
    A first and second learner permit usually lasts for two years each time while a third and subsequent permit lasts for one year. If you are taking out a third or subsequent permit you must show evidence of having taken a driving test in the previous two years or hold an appointment for a forthcoming driving test. If you have taken a test you will be given a two year permit while if you hold a test date your permit will last only for one year.

    Really they could tackle that by just not allowing people to use a 'future' test date for subsequent renewals. Once test can actually cover you for 3 years.
    Get your renewal for 2019 based on 'future test date', fail test, get a two year renewal in 2020 based on (same) failed test.


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    #566
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,446 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    RacoonQueen wrote: »
    When it's your kid though. Tough question to answer.
    no, it's not. you take it on the chin and take the fine that comes with being the owner of the car. and deal with the situation with your kid.


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    #567
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,446 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Another possibility is that people will change their cars to their children's or friends names in order to avoid having their vehicle taken. There are ways to get around it
    i've recently reinsured my car. as you might imagine, one of the questions i was asked was whether i was the owner of the car.

    i can just guess at what the premium would have been if i'd tried to insure a car belonging to someone with a provisional licence.


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    #568
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Another possibility is that people will change their cars to their children's or friends names in order to avoid having their vehicle taken. There are ways to get around it



    If the learner is a named driver on the car or the car is in their name , they won't get around the mobile car baler :








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    #569
    ayux4rj6zql2ph
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭ayux4rj6zql2ph


    RacoonQueen wrote: »
    That's €120 quid a year for third one onwards :eek: Would make more sense to just do the test and fail it to at least get the two year permit.



    Really they could tackle that by just not allowing people to use a 'future' test date for subsequent renewals. Once test can actually cover you for 3 years.
    Get your renewal for 2019 based on 'future test date', fail test, get a two year renewal in 2020 based on (same) failed test.

    €120 a year versus €55 for 10 years if they pass.

    Beggars belief, and you then have some of these people amongst those up in arms at the new legislation, they need to get out and do the test, i honestly don't get this phobia of driving tests, yes people can be nervous naturally, but so nervous that they point blank refuse to take the test? Madness Ted.


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    #570
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,980 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Parker Clever Sextant wrote: »
    Beggars belief, and you then have some of these people amongst those up in arms at the new legislation, they need to get out and do the test, i honestly don't get this phobia of driving tests, yes people can be nervous naturally, but so nervous that they point blank refuse to take the test? Madness Ted.

    These people need to be taken off the road permanently.

    Life ain't always empty.



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    #571
    ayux4rj6zql2ph
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭ayux4rj6zql2ph


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    These people need to be taken off the road permanently.

    100%

    It’s a 30/40 minute test once in a lifetime if done right and people won’t do it.


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