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Small scale wind turbine to a 12v immersion heater - any point?

  • 05-01-2019 10:16pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 145 ✭✭ leo738


    Hello all,


    Just noticed a nearby house (in a housing estate) had a small scale wind turbine mounted on a pole (strapped to their chimney). It go me think & looks like it doesn't make anysort of economic sense to try & feed this sort of small scale project up to 230v, but I was wondering about power (directly) a 12v immersion heater.? Naturally it would need a control/ additional load if the water gets too hot & some sort of brake but other than it should be a straightforward system.


    I wonder has anyone looked/ done this?


    Regards,


    Leo


«1

Comments

  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,101 Mod ✭✭✭✭ BryanF


    Turbine fixed to chimney.. are you sure it’s not just a weather station? If it is a turbine, How long before structure moves, and chimney flashing is leaking?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,081 ✭✭✭ celtic_oz




  • Registered Users Posts: 145 ✭✭ leo738


    BryanF wrote: »
    Turbine fixed to chimney.. are you sure it’s not just a weather station? If it is a turbine, How long before structure moves, and chimney flashing is leaking?


    Fairly sure it's a turbine, bit of an eco warrior thing going on by the looks of the thing, PV panels, som eother homemade sun panels or similiar...


    Would a small scale turbine be enough to shift a chimney?


  • Registered Users Posts: 145 ✭✭ leo738


    celtic_oz wrote: »




    Not bad but I wouldn't bother with the batteries, just go straight to the immersion..


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,608 ✭✭✭ gctest50


    leo738 wrote: »
    ..........

    Would a small scale turbine be enough to shift a chimney?

    Depending on the yoke itself, the vibration over a long period of time may not be good for it

    And you may not want to be that near it when it sheds a blade or two

    Or when it goes on fire


    They're just mad for that craic, blade shedding, fires etc

    .


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  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,101 Mod ✭✭✭✭ BryanF


    leo738 wrote: »
    Fairly sure it's a turbine, bit of an eco warrior thing going on by the looks of the thing, PV panels, som eother homemade sun panels or similiar...


    Would a small scale turbine be enough to shift a chimney?

    Show me one that’s CE marked and/or certified/warranty for connection to a chimney (or any part of a building)


  • Registered Users Posts: 29,310 ✭✭✭✭ NIMAN


    I saw a small one on a gable wall on a house in Antrim a few years back.

    It was about the size of a satellite dish (and no, it wasn't a satellite dish).


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,349 ✭✭✭✭ Mad_Lad


    Waste of time really, and I'd go with higher voltage, less current , less losses with higher voltage, cables don't need to be as thick etc.

    When the water is hot you better be sure your dump load does not fail or the turbine will self destruct with no load on it and we get a lot of high winds in Ireland so something like this is not ideal really, if it happens what damage will it do to your property or neighbour if they are close ?

    Professional wind installations have failed in Ireland due to poor turbine choice.

    Why do I feel it's a waste ? for the same reason Solar PV is without a feed-in-tariff, too much energy has to be dumped but with a small turbine and small inverter direct to the house mains supply you can use much, much more energy to power the house and it will always have some load but again, unless there is enough load , in high winds it can still damage the turbine.

    Most people heat water via the central heating most of the year so a turbine to heat water that's going to be hot most of the year is a bit pointless unless your setup is different.


  • Registered Users Posts: 145 ✭✭ leo738


    Mad_Lad wrote: »
    Waste of time really, and I'd go with higher voltage, less current , less losses with higher voltage, cables don't need to be as thick etc.

    When the water is hot you better be sure your dump load does not fail or the turbine will self destruct with no load on it and we get a lot of high winds in Ireland so something like this is not ideal really, if it happens what damage will it do to your property or neighbour if they are close ?

    Professional wind installations have failed in Ireland due to poor turbine choice.

    Why do I feel it's a waste ? for the same reason Solar PV is without a feed-in-tariff, too much energy has to be dumped but with a small turbine and small inverter direct to the house mains supply you can use much, much more energy to power the house and it will always have some load but again, unless there is enough load , in high winds it can still damage the turbine.

    Most people heat water via the central heating most of the year so a turbine to heat water that's going to be hot most of the year is a bit pointless unless your setup is different.

    Thanks for the reply but I think once you starting getting into inverters etc the price climbs substantially making it definitely uneconomic. My thoughts are that a small scale low voltage simple system heating an immersion COULD be economically reasonable once, as expressed by others, the unit can be suitable fixed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,349 ✭✭✭✭ Mad_Lad


    But there's really no point if you got central heating , it will heat the water most of the year, inverters are expensive but the only efficient way to utilise all of the energy and if the power is cut then the inverter needs to shut off and you got no load on the inverter , this will be your greatest challenge, yes a dump load is fine but in my opinion, and I am not an expert, it would want to be guaranteed not to fail in the substantial high winds we get a lot so it would wanted to be rated far higher than it's maximum rated power.

    You could also try a few batteries and store some of the energy, I'd go for 24 Volts minimum and just get 4 12V lead acid batteries and connect 2 in series and parallel them together so say 4 x 100 amp Hrs would give you 2.4 Kwh of storage, or probably 1.8 because Lead acid never gives the full AH and you'd be better off not running them low all the time and ensure power is cut at a certain low voltage.

    With some kind of battery storage you have a load on the turbine, and not wasting energy by dumping it which defeats the purpose. Especially when the central heating is on where is all the energy to go ? but you'll still need to dump energy once the batteries are full.

    You could get a 2-3 Kw normal non grid tie pure sinewave inverter to power other things in the house and or keep a load on the turbine all the time and you could even run a small 500 watt electric heater but your dump load will probably be just as effective but actually probably not as efficient as radiating heat from an actual heater.

    You could also tie in a few solar PV cells too a 500 W - 1 Kw array would match nicely and you'd be surprised what the solar could generate when the wind isn't blowing.

    To be honest if you were doing all that I would just go with the Solar PV professional installation, get the grant and hope that a feed-in-tariff is offered soon at least you can use as much energy as possible for the whole house or just save your money and buy a proper array properly installed , of course any excess is still going to the grid for free but at least you don't risk turbines exploding or dump loads going Nuclear.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,364 ✭✭✭ rolion


    You will need a good inverter to do the wind and the PVs combination,smart feed the battery while havign a decent output to internal network and possible avoid the exces back on to grid.

    And,they are not cheap...it may cut the investment from day one and increase the RoI with couple of years.
    Wind turbine is fine when "YOU" are off the grid completely...otherwise,is a nice futile exercise on an expensive gadget.
    Have fun...


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,349 ✭✭✭✭ Mad_Lad


    yeah it's all something I would not do, too hard to control and monitor everything.

    I'd put all the money and save it for a proper installation of Solar PV if the Government ever offer FIT. Then it's just installed and forget it and all the excess goes to the grid and bought back when you need it and if you can export enough could probably run some electric heaters and save some heating costs. Maybe install a few storage heaters.

    Ideally we should all be on electric heating so excess wind can be diverted to heat homes instead of turning off turbines. More people in electric cars would also help for storage.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,364 ✭✭✭ rolion


    @MY_lad

    No,no..do not give up yet...do the maths,study,research,get few more things/terms/parameters/knowledge in your head before giving up...
    Wind will do magic if designed and used properly,in accordance with the local parameters and conditions...Solar PV / Soalr tubes will add as a major benefit as a operation of "too much / too less" type but they will complement each other.

    I'm working for my secret hidden off grid (to read off the system) location,read more H E R E. ... i know more but honest,i am more confused,too much information from a first shot.

    AND,you may have not heard it first from me...the local / national / Irish grid network will not survive if there will be "more people in EVs" ! There is a major disaster waiting to happen and i dont see any plans from national electricity provider(s) having a plan to deal with the surge. Unless there is a nuclear plant to be built in secret somewhere on this small island...we have to pray for Sellafield to be operational and push the electrons under the Irish Sea all the way to my small battery here...

    God Bless EV and their owners...by then, who knows what it will be !??


  • Registered Users Posts: 145 ✭✭ leo738


    Thanks for the input but my approach would be to simply feed the output of the 12v generator straight to the immersion, no inverter (& inherent losses). The current would I'm sure for a small turbine be less than 3A so light cable only would be required. The only control required would be when the water comes up to temperature that the feed is diverted elsewhere (e.g. dummy load).

    We have central heating as normal but any heating by such a system would reduce the 'effort' required to bring the water up to temperature.

    I'm sure the system would take a substantial number of years (10+) to pay for itself but I think it would be reasonable to expect a small decrease in hot water heating costs if the system was simple, cheap & reliable.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,364 ✭✭✭ rolion


    You will need more than 12V for an element to get the desired results... see HERE

    What you can do as a compromise...get a smaller cylindr,maybe a vertical one 180 litres.
    Fit two immersion elements,300W and connect it to THE "generator".
    That way,it will heat a smaller quantity faster and you will use that small cylinder as a pre-heating / buffer for the bigger 300 litres main cylinder.
    Of course,150 litres of warm water will be quickly chilled by the cold feed from the mains if the immersion will not keep up with it.

    To keep a long story short...aply for the solar tubes grant,pay around €3,000 for a system and get back half of that due to the grant (i think the numbers for grant are correct)


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,349 ✭✭✭✭ Mad_Lad


    3 amps at 12V ? that's about 36 watts mate, that won't do much for you , can't see that heating the water for a very very long time.

    As I said , when the central heating is in use most of the year it seems pointless to do this, you'd be better off running some low voltage lights but you'd need a battery and charging system.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,349 ✭✭✭✭ Mad_Lad


    rolion wrote: »
    You will need more than 12V for an element to get the desired results... see HERE

    What you can do as a compromise...get a smaller cylindr,maybe a vertical one 180 litres.
    Fit two immersion elements,300W and connect it to THE "generator".
    That way,it will heat a smaller quantity faster and you will use that small cylinder as a pre-heating / buffer for the bigger 300 litres main cylinder.
    Of course,150 litres of warm water will be quickly chilled by the cold feed from the mains if the immersion will not keep up with it.

    To keep a long story short...aply for the solar tubes grant,pay around €3,000 for a system and get back half of that due to the grant (i think the numbers for grant are correct)

    300 watts element with 36 watt turbine ? 12 v x 3 amps.

    3K would be much better spent on solar PV and not hot water panels as I said, the central heating takes of hot water most of the year and Solar PV can heat the water in the warmer months + power the rest of the house, unfortunately , with no FIT any excess has to be dumped and then after this exported to the grid for free but I would not waste 3K on solar hot water.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,349 ✭✭✭✭ Mad_Lad


    rolion wrote: »

    AND,you may have not heard it first from me...the local / national / Irish grid network will not survive if there will be "more people in EVs" ! There is a major disaster waiting to happen and i dont see any plans from national electricity provider(s) having a plan to deal with the surge. Unless there is a nuclear plant to be built in secret somewhere on this small island...we have to pray for Sellafield to be operational and push the electrons under the Irish Sea all the way to my small battery here...

    God Bless EV and their owners...by then, who knows what it will be !??

    I'm an ev owner for the last 4 years and the car was one of the largest savers of fuel I could have possibly imagined. Diesel would cost me around 2000-2200 a year EV costs probably 200 a year considering most of my commute is free with work charging and some home charging when off shift or in the worst of weather or when I put the boot down I might need an hour or two to charge for commute.

    Annual mileage is about 30,000 Kms.

    Anyway, we have plenty of capacity for charging electric cars at night and it would make a lot more efficient use of the grid and renewable energy.

    Local distribution is another matter, 100 cars charging at 7 Kw in an estate would = 0.7 Mw extra load on an estate supply so time will tell how that fares out but grid wise it would be a lot better to have a lot more electricity consumed at night.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,364 ✭✭✭ rolion


    Mad_Lad wrote: »
    300 watts element with 36 watt turbine ? 12 v x 3 amps.

    3K would be much better spent on solar PV and not hot water panels as I said, the central heating takes of hot water most of the year and Solar PV can heat the water in the warmer months + power the rest of the house, unfortunately , with no FIT any excess has to be dumped and then after this exported to the grid for free but I would not waste 3K on solar hot water.


    LAD,have been here many times... i respect you too much to enter in polemics with you.
    Solar tubes will not beat, never ever a PV solar no matter what you throw in there.
    I have both systems and i can prove it to you,even now at night time, that each system does its best at whats is purpose built for.

    If you can accept compromise,please be my guess.

    And is not €3,000 for the solar tubes,do the maths on the SEAI www.

    Mad_Lad wrote: »
    I'm an ev owner for the last 4 years and the car was one of the largest savers of fuel I could have possibly imagined. Diesel would cost me around 2000-2200 a year EV costs probably 200 a year considering most of my commute is free with work charging and some home charging when off shift or in the worst of weather or when I put the boot down I might need an hour or two to charge for commute.

    Annual mileage is about 30,000 Kms.

    Anyway, we have plenty of capacity for charging electric cars at night and it would make a lot more efficient use of the grid and renewable energy.

    Local distribution is another matter, 100 cars charging at 7 Kw in an estate would = 0.7 Mw extra load on an estate supply so time will tell how that fares out but grid wise it would be a lot better to have a lot more electricity consumed at night.

    I have to say,with respect, you are the only reason why i am getting an i3 REx ... soon.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,349 ✭✭✭✭ Mad_Lad


    Good Man, you'll love the Rex !

    We'll agree to disagree with on the Solar PV V Hot water tubes. But answer me this , what can you do with all the hot water you'll never use V what can you do with all the electricity from Solar PV including dump it in your i3 ?

    Most homes heat the water via central heating. IF we had a FIT solar PV would work a lot better as all excess can be exported and used when needed, my Partners Parents in Germany have 11 or 14 Kw/p can't remember exactly but they export enough to run the storage heaters in the cooler months.

    While yes in the cooler months your PV won't generate a huge amount at all but this is usually when the central heating is on heating all that water, in the brighter months you'd generate a hell of a lot more.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,364 ✭✭✭ rolion


    My_lad, can' t answer your questions,too late as i have both systems,i cannot go back and /or to change my mind.
    Both works perfect.And believe me,i do take advantage of the hot water and the excess energy.

    Agree to close the matter here,with your agreement.

    Take care and i will have a cup of coffee when i pick the i3,first "stop and recharge" is for you ! :)


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You will not get any significant power for a turbine that is not a horizontal axis, less than 2m in blade span with double the height and lateral height displacement from the nearest obstacle in < 5m/s average wind.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,364 ✭✭✭ rolion


    I'm not disputing your thesis just the part of " is not horizontal axis"...
    Can I ask you to elaborate ,please, as I am in process in building a VAWT myself...
    Tks


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 89,697 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Capt'n Midnight


    Mad_Lad wrote: »
    3 amps at 12V ? that's about 36 watts mate, that won't do much for you , can't see that heating the water for a very very long time.

    As I said , when the central heating is in use most of the year it seems pointless to do this, you'd be better off running some low voltage lights but you'd need a battery and charging system.
    It'll take over an hour to do what a kettle does in a one minute.

    Average kettle is 2,400watts


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,349 ✭✭✭✭ Mad_Lad


    Only it's trying to hear a hell of a lot more water which this time of year the central heating would dwarf any input from 36 watts.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    rolion wrote: »
    I
    Can I ask you to elaborate ,please...

    Clicky


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,364 ✭✭✭ rolion



    All issues raised by that "clicky" resolved by here,in this LINKY ! :)




    And that's what i am after:



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,946 ✭✭✭ randombar


    Just had a look at some of the turbines out there. If you had an inverter for pv panels already could you add a 24v turbine to it? Or are decent ones too expensive?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,364 ✭✭✭ rolion


    @Gary

    Is way too much info to put here on this topic to explain the decency of both systems,in few characters or words.
    Wind works in a different way ...and first,you will need a different type of inverter for wind than for PVs.
    Also,beside the size,power,voltage and so on,major thing that is been overlooked mostly is the how to stop the turbine rotation if the wind goes over a certain speed...

    It needs a well good planning and deciding for what system to go.
    The wind works the best as a complement to a PV array or if no PV,then you will need to to go big to justify the investment.

    What are you trying to to in you rlocation,just to add a miniature system for 24v to get the lights going !?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,946 ✭✭✭ randombar


    rolion wrote: »
    @Gary

    Is way too much info to put here on this topic to explain the decency of both systems,in few characters or words.
    Wind works in a different way ...and first,you will need a different type of inverter for wind than for PVs.
    Also,beside the size,power,voltage and so on,major thing that is been overlooked mostly is the how to stop the turbine rotation if the wind goes over a certain speed...

    It needs a well good planning and deciding for what system to go.
    The wind works the best as a complement to a PV array or if no PV,then you will need to to go big to justify the investment.

    What are you trying to to in you rlocation,just to add a miniature system for 24v to get the lights going !?


    If I need a different type of inverter for wind than the one I already have in place for PV then I think that answers my questions around cost.

    I was hoping to compliment my pv array with a small wind turbine. EV on the way and the PV is working well when the sun is out, I guess I am trying to figure out ways of extending what I have in an affordable way to get the most out of living in the middle of nowhere :D


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