Reloading ammunition?

Zxthinger

solarwinds wrote: »

I dont know a lot about those things but I imagine they would have made changes to take into account the troubles in the North.

You might be right,
The origin or Council Order no12 needs to found..

tac foley

And yet the North of Ireland, the place where most of the appalling tragedies of the last 50 years have taken place, is the one part of the United Kingdom where cartridge-firing handguns that still look like handguns are still allowed to ordinary FAC holders.

Why should that be, when so many people indisputably met their ends by the use of handguns?

Well, to put it simply, the Northern Ireland PTB and what was at that time called the RUC were very hard-pressed to find a single instance where a LEGALLY-owned handgun had been used in such a way. They therefore saw no value whatsoever in punishing the law-abiding handgun owner because of the acts of terrorism that had been carried out by CRIMINALS using ILLEGAL firearms.

If I lived there, I would still have ALL my handguns that looked like handguns, and not have to make do with the monstrosity I currently have, or be restricted to black powder front-loaders of one kind or another.

solarwinds

That kind of outside the box rational thinking would not work here. Its just too far out there.

Wadi14

[Well, to put it simply, the Northern Ireland PTB and what was at that time called the RUC were very hard-pressed to find a single instance where a LEGALLY-owned handgun had been used in such a way. They therefore saw no value whatsoever in punishing the law-abiding handgun owner because of the acts of terrorism that had been carried out by CRIMINALS using ILLEGAL firearms QUOTE]


Its one way of looking at it Tac, the main reason wont be discussed here in a shooting forum, probably best in a political forum. Have a look at the figures of who owned the vast majority of the legally held firearms and that will put you on the right track, as to why they where not removed.

Grizzly 45

Yet they did try to in NI at the start. Taken from this webpage.Probably one of the best-researched sites on the arms of the NI troubles

https://balaclavastreet.wordpress.com/2014/12/16/terminal-effects-the-guns-of-the-loyalist-paramilitaries/

[Italics emphasis mine]

Nationalist concern over the growing number of thefts targeting guns shops, clubs, and owners led to a major debate on gun control which dominated the second half of 1972. It came to a head in October when the leader of the opposition Harold Wilson opened his speech at the Labour Party conference in Blackpool by calling for a total ban:

"Must our troops be subject to a virtually uncontrolled gun-law? On April 6, 1971, 18 months ago, in the anxious debate which followed the deposition of Major Chichester-Clark and the accession of Mr Faulkner, I demanded that all gun licences be withdrawn, subject to a minimum issue for self-defence in remote areas, including the border. I demanded that these apart, the holding of private weapons be no longer tolerated in Northern Ireland. There are upwards of 100,000 licensed weapons in Northern Ireland, and God alone knows how many illegal ones. I now warn Mr Heath. The possession of private arms is not an inalienable human right. Public opinion in Britain will not for long tolerate the continued presence of British troops unless firm action is taken to make illegal the holding of private arms."

Compared with the surfeit of Armalites, sub-machineguns, and other weapons swamping Northern Ireland at the time legally-held firearms constituted a small and not particularly formidable threat, but Wilson was keen to take up the concerns of the minority community and outmanoeuvre the government on the issue. William Whitelaw pointed out that no member of the security forces was known to have been killed with a legally-held gun at that point, although the situation regarding civilians was less clear.

The Lynch government in the Republic had already mounted the pre preventative call-in of all handguns, and rifles over .22 calibre, they along with shotguns being exempted, as pressure mounted for the authorities further north to follow suit. A Belfast magistrate speaking after the prosecution of one FAC holder for exceeding his allowance stated “it is time everyone looked at everyone’s firearms certificates in this country. Another country has decided to call in certain arms”. Anti-gun sentiment gained momentum and the Belfast Telegraph reported: “Legal arms in Ulster may be banned”. The paper threw its weight behind calls for a ban, an editorial declaring “the general public would breathe more easily if Mr Whitelaw ordered all civilian-held guns to be turned in immediately, and all gun clubs to be disbanded, for the sake of public safety”. Wilson’s proposals also found immediate support from the SDLP and Provisional Sinn Fein.

Adding its voice to the debate around civilian arms was the Catholic Ex-Servicemen’s Association. A statement released following a meeting of the group in Lurgan let it be known that: " the Association expressed great concern regarding the continuing policy of allowing licensed guns to remain in the hands of over 100,000 people in Northern Ireland. They question the right of these 100,000 people to have a means of protection when a further 1 1/2 million people in Northern Ireland have no such right. What entitles them to the privilege of being armed other than that they are, in the main, Unionist Government supporters?"

Gun owners reacted angrily to talk of a ban, claiming that any law would unfairly and disproportionately affect rural Protestants and leave them at the mercy of an IRA well-armed with illegal guns, with George Green of the Ulster Special Constabulary Association heading up criticism. The Belfast Telegraph printed a copy of a letter sent to Wilson by an anonymous shooter writing under the name “Sportsman”:

"I am quite appalled at your attitude towards legally-held guns which, as you must appreciate, are in the hands of sportsmen. I can appreciate that the present situation in Northern Ireland could cloud personal judgement but I can see only political opportunism in your recommendations to Mr Paul Channon in the House on 31st July 1972, to impound all privately and legally held guns in our province […] even the most naive person must appreciate that even if all legally-held guns were impounded, the illegal rifles, revolvers and explosives would still be in profusion, and it is these which are taking human life […] remember that the authorities know where the legal guns are; it is the illegal guns they have to worry about."

In the end only 1,000 full-bore rifles were called in to be held in gun clubs with fortified stores. The debate had unexpected side effects as the UVF deviously took advantage of confusion over the law. Two men posing as police officers enacting a call-in of legal arms came to the door of a gun owner in Templepatrick and tricked him into handing over a licensed weapon. A week later in Glengormley they succeeded in taking a shotgun using the same ruse, even giving the owner a receipt for the gun. As a result of a number of such deceptions, the RUC were forced to issue a statement reiterating that no call-in had been ordered. The more confrontational robberies that were also taking place at this time were not without risk. An attempt by two loyalists, one armed with a revolver, to steal weapons from a licensed owner living off the Albertbridge Road was foiled when the man opened fire on them with a shotgun.

How important were legal civilian-owned guns as a source for the loyalist paramilitaries? The evidence suggests “not very”. Nationalist claims of upwards of 140,000 firearms in circulation were incorrect. In 1972 the figure actually stood at roughly 77,000 certificates covering 106,000 weapons of all kinds: 93% of these were shotguns (73,160), .22 rimfire rifles (13,767), or airguns (12,125). The militarily-worthless airguns were not, are not, subject to license in Great Britain, leaving a total figure of 92,926. Neither remaining category constituted a particularly formidable resource: 281 shotguns were stolen from private owners in 1972 and ’73 but they lacked range, ammunition capacity, and without buckshot or solid shot, hitting power; .22LR rifles suffered similar disadvantages and were less than a tenth as powerful as an Armalite. Many of the stolen guns were stashed away in long-term hides in rural Antrim and Down for issue in the event of a “Doomsday” united Ireland scenario. Even then it is doubtful whether they would have been of much benefit beyond a simple morale-booster. The experience of the Confederacy during the American Civil War proved that shotguns are a poor substitute for military firearms.*

More useful were the 6,520 legally-owned handguns, of which 2,800 or roughly 40% were Personal Protection Weapons owned by members of the security forces. By 1978 and in the face of mounting attacks on vulnerable off-duty personnel that figure had increased to 7,550. Northern Ireland was not subject to the ban on handguns enacted by the Tory and later Labour governments in response to the Dunblane massacre of 1996, and while up to date figures are not available it is believed thousands of PPWs are still held by serving and former members of the security forces and prison service. Politicians, contractors to the security forces, and other figures seen as potential targets for assassination were also granted PPWs. Even Sinn Fein, in spite of its usual hostility towards legally-held firearms, called for its members to be permitted licensed guns for their protection in August 1993 after scores of loyalist attacks.

The standard PPW for members of the UDR in the early days was the .22LR Walther PP automatic pistol, adopted by the MOD as L66A1 at a cost of £155 each. It was not a popular choice – although concealable its hitting power was regarded as pathetic and its rimmed cartridge was not conducive to reliability, leading many to purchase more powerful guns at their own expense. Later it was replaced by the far superior Walther P5 in 9mm Parabellum. All the same, loyalists attempted to steal the little PPs whenever the opportunity presented itself. Typically an off-duty UDR man would be identified in a bar and waylaid on the way out once he was the worse for wear. Violence was sometimes used. In 1981 David Smyth, a 24yr old Protestant from Highburn Gardens, was stabbed to death in an bungled mugging when a UVF/RHC gang tried to take a PPW from his companion, a member of the UDR, as they left a UDA-run drinking club. The off-duty soldier had drunkenly fired his gun in the air minutes before the attack.

Politicians have frequently turned to gun prohibition as a quick-fix solution to violence or in response to political crises. Fear of socialist revolution in the years following the First World War prompted the UK’s first real firearms legislation and registration. Aside from the call-in of fullbore weapons held for sport and hunting there was little else the government – well aware that it was the illegal shipments of military-grade weapons flowing into the country which were really fuelling the violence – could do in this area given Northern Ireland’s already strict gun laws.

Even had a blanket ban been enacted loyalists would still have been able to equip themselves through raids wherever guns were kept. The lengths they were willing to go to, and the eclectic nature of the sites they targeted in their search for arms, are clearly demonstrated in the daring UVF raid on the government forensics laboratories in Belfast in early 1973.

*Considering that the majority of the Confedercy was armed with a collection of smooth bore percussion muskets of both native and European origin,it is hardly a fair comparison.
However tell that to General Santa Ana, who lost over half of his Mexican troops to the Texans using shot firing muskets at The Alamo that they are ineffective.

Wadi14

Was there a blanket ban, before or after the start of the Troubles ?
Im guessing there probably was no real need before hand, the families with no work no house no job and no rights probably wouldn't have looked for a pistol or centre fire rifle anyway, if you cant get a house your prob not going to get a licenced firearm either.

So who had these 100,000 firearms anyway ?

Have you worked out why there never was a Ban ?


That ends my off thread posts on this one.

Grizzly 45

And we won't go back to the politics and religion of this one 115 years ago as to why people found themselves in this situation either.:(

minktrapper

Anyone any idea as to the cost of reloading a shotgun cartridge. Outside of the cost of the equipment ie. the reloader itself.

tac foley

minktrapper wrote: »

Anyone any idea as to the cost of reloading a shotgun cartridge. Outside of the cost of the equipment ie. the reloader itself.

This information is the latest I can find, and is over ten years old, but hopefully might help you -

“Today the reloading market is being driven by non-toxic and magnum loads for wildfowlers, particularly in steel shot and by small gauge cartridges, especially .410 and 28-bore. You’ll be lucky if you save £10 per 1,000 in 12-bore 28g to 32g lead loads and you can only do that by buying big quantities of components. But you can save up to 60% on 3in .410 cartridges and if you want to make steel shot work then you’ve got to load it yourself. The wildfowling element now comprises about 70% of my business.”

minktrapper

I was hoping for an answer like 12.5 cents. Or something similar.

tac foley

Sorry, you'll have to extrapolate from the available data above, since it doesn't happen at all where you live. Where it is impossible to do, the cost is moot.

minktrapper

I am ever hopeful.

minktrapper

Any update on this.

tac foley

Uh, no. I've written all that I can, and it seems that nobody else here knows much more than I do about reloading shotgun ammunition in the RoI.

minktrapper

Zxthinger wrote: »

When things calm down after xmas I'll have to go over the whole process but from my initial reading of the 1875 explosive act, it seems to me that the local authority has no reason to vet a person for having a limited quantity of powder and propellants if it's for private use.

The act explicitly details an exemption from the storage regulations for private use of explosives which are being held for legal personal or sporting usage. The 1875 act stipulates IIRC that this amount of explosive is limited to 30lb

Some time after this common sense 1875 rule is the insertion of council order no12 in which private storage is reduced to 10lbs of powder/explosives/primers etc etc

Two bits that have me chasing my tail are. :
#1.... Under what part of the legislation was the co council fire inspected obliged to carry out said inspection and
#2.... where does this council order no12 ( limiting possession to 10lb) reign from.


It seems to me that it is all allowable yet the local authority has vetted private individuals under the portions of the act which is designed for commercial groups. This is a major error.

Don't forget that the same 1875 explosives act governs the U.K, yes I know it is with some minor changes but please remember that we don't see uk reloaders being vetted for fire rated ceilings and doors with alarms and sprinklers with anti static certification.
Ffs..we are being deceived.

This.

tac foley

I've made the decision that I will no longer be posting anything here relating to the subject of reloading any kind of metallic cartridge, or the shooting of black powder cartridge-firing or muzzle-loading firearms of any kind on this forum that entails me in the discussion of the current state of play in the Republic of Ireland.

I will continue to respond to PMs or emails about the subject, but they will not appear on this open forum.

Zxthinger

tac foley wrote: »

Uh, no. I've written all that I can, and it seems that nobody else here knows much more than I do about reloading shotgun ammunition in the RoI.

No update yet. Still crazy with work. I'm changing job too so I won't be looking into much for a twonor three weeks.

I'll have sit down a search for the order No12.

minktrapper

Zxthinger wrote: »

No update yet. Still crazy with work. I'm changing job too so I won't be looking into much for a twonor three weeks.

I'll have sit down a search for the order No12.

Thank you very much.

pm.

Zxthinger wrote: »

No update yet. Still crazy with work. I'm changing job too so I won't be looking into much for a twonor three weeks.

I'll have sit down a search for the order No12.

Thanks Zxthinger, and best of luck with the new job