Irish directed film on James Bulger comes under criticism for humanising the killers

ohnonotgmail

Sardonicat wrote: »

They were 10. I never understood how they tried them as adults. What was the reason for that?

10 is the age of criminal responsibility in the UK

Church on Tuesday

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Because they are humans.

This white and black nonsense peddled by the media is bull****.

Hitler won Times Man of the Year in 1937 for Bringing Germany back from the great depression.

People are complex. They are not divided into "evil" and "good"

When 2 children murder another child there's some serious questions that need to be asked and examined and not just lump them into the "evil" pile and move on.

I welcome this discussion.

I hear what you're saying and yes, people are extremely complex. I have had personal experience of that myself. The reality is that we're still trying to figure out certain aspects of the human brain and a lot of it is still a mystery even today in 2019.

However, what these then two young boys did to another human being is, quite frankly, psychopathic behavior. It simply wasn't normal. It may seem too lazy to label then two young kids as evil but that's what they were and most probably still are (Venables has been done for downloading child pornography many times since his release along with other misdemeanors).

To inflict so much damage to a young child resulting in death, and enjoy it, can only be classed as evil. We've got to be real here.

FrancieBrady

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

I hear what you're saying and yes, people are extremely complex. I have had personal experience of that myself. The reality is that we're still trying to figure out certain aspects of the human brain and a lot of it is still a mystery even today in 2019.

However, what these then two young boys did to another human being is, quite frankly, psychopathic behavior. It simply wasn't normal. It may seem too lazy to label then two young kids as evil but that's what they were and most probably still are (Venables has been done for downloading child pornography many times since his release along with other misdemeanors).

To inflict so much damage to a young child resulting in death, and enjoy it, can only be classed as evil. We've got to be real here.

So it is ok for you to analyse them and make up your mind what they are but not for anyone else? Particularly those of us who don't believe in the simplistic biblical concept of 'evil'.

Church on Tuesday

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So it is ok for you to analyse them and make up your mind what they are but not for anyone else? Particularly those of us who don't believe in the simplistic biblical concept of 'evil'.

What has the bible got to do with the concept of what is evil behavior?

I'm not particularity religious if that's what you're trying to get at.

The evidence clearly shows what they are. At the very least mentally deranged and yes I consider what they did to that child as evil. You don't have to be a God botherer to recognize a particular act or individual as 'evil'.

For example I consider pedophiles to be evil. Venables is a pedophile. Now some folk here like to excuse pedophilia behavior as an 'illness' which can over time be possibly cured.

Nonsense.

Evil is evil. This is the real world we're talking about here and there is any amount of it in the world today. Always has been and always will, because simply that's some human beings for you. Cases like this can be studied all you want but you'll never really get satisfactory answers as to why things like this happen in the first place.

FrancieBrady

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

What has the bible got to do with the concept of what is evil behavior?

I'm not particularity religious if that's what you're trying to get at.

The evidence clearly shows what they are. At the very least mentally deranged and yes I consider what they did to that child as evil. You don't have to be a God botherer to recognize a particular act or individual as 'evil'.

For example I consider pedophiles to be evil. Venables is a pedophile. Now some folk here like to excuse pedophilia behavior as an 'illness' which can over time be possibly cured.

Nonsense.

Evil is evil. This is the real world we're talking about here and there is any amount of it in the world today. Always has been and always will, because simply that's some human beings for you. Cases like this can be studied all you want but you'll never really get satisfactory answers as to why things like this happen in the first place.

It isn't anything to do with the 'real' world at all. It is a concept, a concept that originates in a world created by an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good God.

If you don't believe in the above the concept of evil is moot and useless.

AllForIt

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

What has the bible got to do with the concept of what is evil behavior?

I'm not particularity religious if that's what you're trying to get at.

The evidence clearly shows what they are. At the very least mentally deranged and yes I consider what they did to that child as evil. You don't have to be a God botherer to recognize a particular act or individual as 'evil'.

For example I consider pedophiles to be evil. Venables is a pedophile. Now some folk here like to excuse pedophilia behavior as an 'illness' which can over time be possibly cured.

Nonsense.

Evil is evil. This is the real world we're talking about here and there is any amount of it in the world today. Always has been and always will, because simply that's some human beings for you. Cases like this can be studied all you want but you'll never really get satisfactory answers as to why things like this happen in the first place.

Depends what you mean by evil. Is evil to you simply a word that describes the highest on the spectrum of bad or is it, as it is to some, a word that describes some kind of condition that is influenced by the Devil himself from which there is no cure for.

I watched a very interesting doc some years back about a Russian serial killer who you might call evil. When he was caught physiologists determined he had absolutely no emotional capability whatsoever as if that part of the brain that deals with emotions didn't exist in him. Hardly a coincidence. Was he possessed by the Devil and thus evil or was he just nuts.

AllForIt

Having listened to some discussions about this over the last few days I think the problem some have with humanizing the perpetrators is something that ppl aren't comfortable with due to the reason that if one were to explain it physiologically then we would have to understand it and in understanding it we are afraid to think that what we wouldn't think quite as badly of them as we first did.

But I think that's irrational. It's always better to understand things than not. In understanding there is a possibility of prevention, seeing warning signs for example and if not prevention dealing with them better so they don't re-offend once apprehended. I heard that these kids spent all day out on the street for 10 hours at a time and that can't be a good upbringing not that that fully explains there actions but it must be a factor.

I do think though that the filmmaker was shockingly selfish not to inform the parents.

FrancieBrady

AllForIt wrote: »

Having listened to some discussions about this over the last few days I think the problem some have with humanizing the perpetrators is something that ppl aren't comfortable with due to the reason that if one were to explain it physiologically then we would have to understand it and in understanding it we are afraid to think that what we wouldn't think quite as badly of them as we first did.

But I think that's irrational. It's always better to understand things than not. In understanding there is a possibility of prevention, seeing warning signs for example and if not prevention dealing with them better so they don't re-offend once apprehended. I heard that these kids spent all day out on the street for 10 hours at a time and that can't be a good upbringing not that that fully explains there actions but it must be a factor.

I do think though that the filmmaker was shockingly selfish not to inform the parents.

This is another strange word, 'humanising'. The fact of the matter is that they are human and always have and will be.

There were many things we didn't understand about human behaviour in the 1800's the 1950's etc that we now understand and can treat and predict.

That quest has to continue, the human brain is one of the last frontiers, so to speak.

Edit: Had the parents started their campaign when he first approached the film might never had been made at all. He weighed it up, reckoned they would not give permission and decided to move on.

Church on Tuesday

AllForIt wrote: »

Depends what you mean by evil. Is evil to you simply a word that describes the highest on the spectrum of bad or is it, as it is to some, a word that describes some kind of condition that is influenced by the Devil himself from which there is no cure for.

I watched a very interesting doc some years back about a Russian serial killer who you might call evil. When he was caught physiologists determined he had absolutely no emotional capability whatsoever as if that part of the brain that deals with emotions didn't exist in him. Hardly a coincidence. Was he possessed by the Devil and thus evil or was he just nuts.

It's this.

Church on Tuesday

FrancieBrady wrote: »

This is another strange word, 'humanising'. The fact of the matter is that they are human and always have and will be.

There were many things we didn't understand about human behaviour in the 1800's the 1950's etc that we now understand and can treat and predict.

That quest has to continue, the human brain is one of the last frontiers, so to speak.

And one that will never be conquered.

You can't 'predict' abnormal mental behaviors in people.

FrancieBrady

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

And one that will never be conquered.

You can't 'predict' abnormal mental behaviors in people.

How can you possibly know that? People would have had the same attitudes to schizophrenia and bi-polarity at one time. There is a great Irish book which discusses how a woman probably suffering from the above, who was burned as a witch in the late 1800's.

Church on Tuesday

FrancieBrady wrote: »

How can you possibly know that? People would have had the same attitudes to schizophrenia and bi-polarity at one time. There is a great Irish book which discusses how a woman probably suffering from the above, who was burned as a witch in the late 1800's.

You can't predict mental health issues before the child is born obviously(unless there is a severe history of mental health issues in the family) and neither can you predict same in the child's formative years i.e 24 months.

The human mind will always be a mystery which will never be solved.

So in the case of Venebles and Thompson they were punished accordingly; the crime utterly reprehensible regardless of age and the only people we should have sympathy for is Jamie Bulgar who suffered (and he suffered a lot before death) and his family that was torn apart and the family of the two boys who, at the end of the day committed a crime - Murder.

FrancieBrady

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

You can't predict mental health issues before the child is born obviously(unless there is a severe history of mental health issues in the family) and neither can you predict same in the child's formative years i.e 24 months.

The human mind will always be a mystery which will never be solved.

So in the case of Venebles and Thompson they were punished accordingly; the crime utterly reprehensible regardless of age and the only people we should have sympathy for is Jamie Bulgar who suffered (and he suffered a lot before death) and his family that was torn apart and the family of the two boys who, at the end of the day committed a crime - Murder.

I am not interested in getting into a conversation about 'sympathy', I don't think anyone is looking for that for the boys.

We understand a vast amount about the brain and human behaviour that we didn't even at the time of this sad event.

It is ridiculous to state that we 'will never solve the mystery of the human brain'.

And even if we don't, we should never ever stop trying to.

Church on Tuesday

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I am not interested in getting into a conversation about 'sympathy', I don't think anyone is looking for that for the boys.

We understand a vast amount about the brain and human behaviour that we didn't even at the time of this sad event.

It is ridiculous to state that we 'will never solve the mystery of the human brain'.

And even if we don't, we should never ever stop trying to.

The parents of Jamie Bulger don't give a **** about any of that.

It won't bring back their son.

It's not at all ridiculous, it's a fact. Although we can and I'm sure will continue to try like we have for decades now.

FrancieBrady

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

The parents of Jamie Bulger don't give a **** about any of that.

It won't bring back their son.

It's not at all ridiculous, it's a fact. Although we can and I'm sure will continue to try like we have for decades now.

What?

The right to make a film does not belong to Jamie's parents. Nothing will bring back their son.

Advances in medical understanding will be made and we have no idea were that will take us. Fact.

Church on Tuesday

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What?

The right to make a film does not belong to Jamie's parents. Nothing will bring back their son.

Advances in medical understanding will be made and we have no idea were that will take us. Fact.

Yes, a film that seeks to humanize two killers.

You seem to think we can prevent people from becoming future killers, pedophiles, rapists etc just from understanding their minds and if we if we can catch them young, like there is some kind of antidote. Wishful thinking.

It's in a persons makeup from the get go, unpopular fact but there you go. I wouldn't get too upset about it if I where you.

FrancieBrady

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

Yes, a film that seeks to humanize two killers.

You seem to think we can prevent people from becoming future killers, pedophiles, rapists etc just from understanding their minds and if we if we can catch them young, like there is some kind of antidote. Wishful thinking.

It's in a persons makeup from the get go, unpopular fact but there you go. I wouldn't get too upset about it if I where you.

You need to give that crystal ball a wipe.

What if patterns of behaviour can be discovered? Would responsible investigative work be worthwhile then?

If you are going to just sit back and say 'ah he/she is just evil', you are living in the dark age.

Mutant z

Lots of films have been based on a true story should they all be banned as well because if so where does it end.

lillycakes2

The makers of this film should of had the decency to contact Jamies parents out of pure commen courtesy...………… It really puts a bad vibe to the movie knowing how much the parents are against it. it shoudnt have been nominated.

FrancieBrady

lillycakes2 wrote: »

The makers of this film should of had the decency to contact Jamies parents out of pure commen courtesy...………… It really puts a bad vibe to the movie knowing how much the parents are against it. it shoudnt have been nominated.

Why, would it put a bad 'vibe' to the movie?
The parents have objected to various books, plays, episodes of tv series that mention the event.
Lambe made a decision not to spark controversy as it would have jeopardised making the film at all.

retro:electro

I don’t think anyone or anything will ever convince me of anything other than the fact these two boys, now men, are pure scum. Venables in particular has done nothing but reoffend. How much of a debased piece of filth do you have to be to compromise and fcuk up your protected indentity to the extent that you have to be given a second one. At least Thompson has gone on to live a quiet life, as far as we know. I’m a murder podcast fanatic, I’ve read tonnes of books on this case and others and even my chosen career path is involved in dealing with case files of abused and neglected children. I have never in my life come across the absolute savagery and evil brutality these guys inflicted on poor James.
It’s also important to remember that although there are suspicions of abuse in their own backgrounds, and they came from deprivation; there’s nothing actually psychologically wrong with them.
On the piece of film itself, I’ve no objections to it being made. We capitalise on murder and grief all the time, although he should have reached out to Denise. I’ll probably watch it. And from the clips I’ve seen the two boys seem to be portrayed by two fine young actors, fair play to them. It can’t have been easy. But there isn’t a piece of film in the land that can convince me of anything other than the fact these kids are intrinsically evil.

Church on Tuesday

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You need to give that crystal ball a wipe.

What if patterns of behaviour can be discovered? Would responsible investigative work be worthwhile then?

If you are going to just sit back and say 'ah he/she is just evil', you are living in the dark age.

Sorry this ain't Minority Report.

FrancieBrady

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

Sorry this ain't Minority Report.

Nor is it the Dark Ages.

iamwhoiam

There is no doubt that the two boys were evil , what they did was calculated evil . But I doubt they were evil 3 week olds or evil babies . Life makes uscwho we are and our upbringing forms us and I think that needs to be researched and spoken about . Otherwise we won't learn from this horror and we need to learn about children raised in awful circumstances and the effect it has on us all when the become evil and lawless

Church on Tuesday

iamwhoiam wrote: »

There is no doubt that the two boys were evil , what they did was calculated evil . But I doubt they were evil 3 week olds or evil babies . Life makes uscwho we are and our upbringing forms us and I think that needs to be researched and spoken about . Otherwise we won't learn from this horror and we need to learn about children raised in awful circumstances and the effect it has on us all when the become evil and lawless

What about killers who come from perfectly normal backgrounds of which there has been many?

The nature/nurture argument comes into play here, but it would appear that these traits in some humans are entirely random. Certainly can't be predicted anyways.

Mrcaramelchoc

Does anyone know where this can be seen?

iamwhoiam

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

What about killers who come from perfectly normal backgrounds of which there has been many?

The nature/nurture argument comes into play here, but it would appear that these traits in some humans are entirely random. Certainly can't be predicted anyways.

Yes I agree and it is sometimes random
But more often than not they are from a background of neglect or favouritism or abuse in the home .

Church on Tuesday

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Yes I agree and it is sometimes random
But more often than not they are from a background of neglect or favouritism or abuse in the home .

That certainly sadly does be a factor in some cases.

Retr0gamer

I don't get the controversy over this film.

There's a big difference between symphathising and humanising and this film sets out to do the later not the former.

What these two boys did is horrendous. It's hard for people to understand how 10 year old boys could do something so horrific. So to comprehend it they label them as evil or something not human. Like a moustache twirling bad guy in a movie. It's so hard to comprehend that it's easier to trust these kids as inhuman to rationalise it.

What I see this movie doing is forcing the viewer to see these two as the ten year olds they were. Force them to try and rationalise what they did and how two 10 year old children could commit it rather than see them as demons. I think it's a brave piece of film making.

Banning the film or pulling it from awards is akin to censorship and book burning. It's a work of art. Art is meant to elicit an emotional response and from the comments on this thread it's succeeded before people have even watched it.

Wanderer2010

The director is a real snake. He is coming out NOW and releasing all these statements about "regretting" not contacting the parents about the movie and how he didn't want to rake it up for them but he doesn't regret it enough to pull the film eh? And if this awful idea for a movie ever wins awards, he will still walk up and collect the award, he will still use it as a platform to progress his career and he will still be making movies. So his "regret" certainly isn't in any way sincere or limiting him. He knew exactly what he was doing by not contacting the parents.
Of all the things out there in the world he could have picked to make a movie from he picks this. Snake is all he is.