Legislation to make organ donations automatic

weldoninhio

lan wrote: »

So you know someone on dialysis and presumably know how it affects their life, but you’re still unwilling to be an organ donor even after you’re dead? You’re happier with your organs rotting in the ground instead of helping people like your friend live? Yet it’s clearly not the principle, as you’d sign up if they paid you 50k. Absolutely ****ing miserable.

Thankfully you’re in a minority or there’d be no organs for anyone, anywhere, ever.

He got a new kidney a few years ago. He'd gotten one a few years previous from his aunt but after 2 years it started to fail again. He still had a decent quality of life when on dialysis, worked away and was able to socialise.

I'd be saving the HSE money by taking E50k from them as a one off payment rather than them having to fork out E500k a year, per person, on dialysis. It's simple economics.

Ariadne

weldoninhio wrote: »

He got a new kidney a few years ago. He'd gotten one a few years previous from his aunt but after 2 years it started to fail again. He still had a decent quality of life when on dialysis, worked away and was able to socialise.

I'd be saving the HSE money by taking E50k from them as a one off payment rather than them having to fork out E500k a year, per person, on dialysis. It's simple economics.

Such a cold way to talk about people, the government "forking out" 500,000 a year for dialysis patients.

weldoninhio

Succubus_ wrote: »

Such a cold way to talk about people, the government "forking out" 500,000 a year for dialysis patients.

If you want to talk about coldness towards people, this is a thread about a govt minister deciding that everyone suddenly consents to have their bodies harvested after death, without as much as a bye or leave. No vote, nothing. Just on his own whim. Thats cold.

victor8600

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

If that was true, wills would not be legally binding either - I'm dead, why should I now get to decide who holds on to my house etc?

Death does not impact on the basic concept of private property, of which one's body is a fundamental component.

A will is a wish made by a living person. A dead person has no property rights. A will is not absolute in most countries. You can bequest all your belongings to a charity, but your wife and kids are able to overrule your wish.

Also a dead body is nobody's property. One does not own own dead body because one ceases to exist. Certainly you can specify in a will what should be done with your body, and some public health safety and decency rules apply, but otherwise a dead body is a thing that gets disposed of.

VinLieger

weldoninhio wrote: »

If you want to talk about coldness towards people, this is a thread about a govt minister deciding that everyone suddenly consents to have their bodies harvested after death, without as much as a bye or leave. No vote, nothing. Just on his own whim. Thats cold.

Needless sentimentalism, they aren't using them, their loved ones won't notice their absence, their is no christian religious significance to someones organs being absent at the time of funeral or burial.



In fact anyone who cares enough about it that much should have looked into it already and simply take the choice available to everyone to opt out.

Chinasea

No debate, just bloody implement it.

jochenstacker

Chinasea wrote: »

No debate, just bloody implement it.

As we've seen, there will be the usual cranks and malcontents jumping up and down on the sidelines, but if they don't like it, they can opt out.
The sensible 99% won't mind.
The dogs bark, but the train keeps rolling.

El_Duderino 09

Gadgetman496 wrote: »

Any opinion on the second part of my question?

Equally easy to opt out because it will be well publicised. Becoming an organ donor is as simple as discussing your wishes with your next of kin and signing up for a donor card.

It could hardly be any easier than that. Any opinion on any part of my reply?

El_Duderino 09

weldoninhio wrote: »

If you want to talk about coldness towards people, this is a thread about a govt minister deciding that everyone suddenly consents to have their bodies harvested after death, without as much as a bye or leave. No vote, nothing. Just on his own whim. Thats cold.

Ah that's very simplistic to isolate this issue and examine it in that way. A few weeks ago the law changed to near zero tolerance on drink driving. Did you vote on that? Did anyone ask for your consent? Or did they just suddenly change the law without so much as a bye or leave (sic).

Default organ donation with ability to opt out won't be a matter of " a govt minister deciding that everyone suddenly consents to..." Because it's been announced already to get people talking about it years in advance of it coming into force. There will also be years of notice of any law changing and probably an extended period to opt out before the law comes into force.

There seems to be an effort by some to make this seem sinister when it's just good social policy with a completely free opt out.

Gadgetman496

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Equally easy to opt out because it will be well publicised. Becoming an organ donor is as simple as discussing your wishes with your next of kin and signing up for a donor card.

It could hardly be any easier than that. Any opinion on any part of my reply?

We all already know how easy it is to Opt in.

Do we know yet what the procedure will be to Opt out?

El_Duderino 09

Chinasea wrote: »

No debate, just bloody implement it.

Completely disagree. The discussion is very important. The discussion around gay marriage CAUSED a big shift in public opinion on gays because they had to think about it. Likewise I think more people would support organ donation if they're forced to think about it.

I would also want those who don't want to be donors to know about the change and go to the bother of opting out.

I definitely think the law should change but not without loads of discussion on every medium possible. So that even people in institutions, young, old, and people with learning difficulties know about the change (or wherever the cutoff is decided re capacity to consent)

El_Duderino 09

Gadgetman496 wrote: »

We all already know how easy it is to Opt in.

Do we know yet what the procedure will be to Opt out?

Of course we don't know. It hasn't happened yet.

But we do have a precedent in Wales. I did a really quick Google search and within 3 clicks I was here

https://www.organdonation.nhs.uk/register-to-donate/refuse-to-donate/refuse-donation-form/?

It gets you to fill out some tricky questions like your name and address and ethnicity and tick a box that says "I do not want to donate my organs".

You also need to have a discussion with your next of kin to make sure they know your wishes. It would be simple to anyone who gives a toss.

I changed energy company yesterday and that was a bit of a faff. This is nothing by comparison.

lan

weldoninhio wrote: »

He got a new kidney a few years ago. He'd gotten one a few years previous from his aunt but after 2 years it started to fail again. He still had a decent quality of life when on dialysis, worked away and was able to socialise.

Life expectancy on dialysis is only 5 to 10 years. You're hooked up to a machine for 8 hours a day three times a week, very hard to maintain a standard 9-5 job or stay in full time education. I'm glad your friend had a decent quality of life, but dialysis is not what I'd call an ideal long term solution. I think you probably agree on that.

Your friend only got a kidney due to the kindness of others, firstly his aunt, followed presumably by an anonymous grieving family. Like it or not, there is no facility to pay money for an organ in this country and that's (thankfully) not changing any time soon.

You know that, but you still wouldn't sign up to be a deceased organ donor. That's one thing, but then to say you'd change your mind if they paid you?

weldoninhio wrote: »

I'd be saving the HSE money by taking E50k from them as a one off payment rather than them having to fork out E500k a year, per person, on dialysis. It's simple economics.

After you die, you have the power to potentially save 5 people lives and significantly improve the quality of life for several others. You'll be dead, for you there is literally no drawback.

Instead though, you only seem to see this as an opportunity to make yourself some money. Have you no sense of altruism?

Regardless of your motivation and ethical issues aside, the HSE couldn't realistically pay you €50k. Only 0.3% of deaths happen in a way that's suitable for donation, most people won't be able to donate even if they want to. They'd be paying out 33 time for every one person whose organs were actually transplantable.

Living donation is a different matter entirely, but the ethics of buying someone else's organs are dubious at best.

Ipso

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Of course we don't know. It hasn't happened yet.

But we do have a precedent in Wales. I did a really quick Google search and within 3 clicks I was here

https://www.organdonation.nhs.uk/register-to-donate/refuse-to-donate/refuse-donation-form/?

It gets you to fill out some tricky questions like your name and address and ethnicity and tick a box that says "I do not want to donate my organs".

You also need to have a discussion with your next of kin to make sure they know your wishes. It would be simple to anyone who gives a toss.

I changed energy company yesterday and that was a bit of a faff. This is nothing by comparison.

This is sinister stuff.
How can we give power like this to an organization that is already expected to provide for the nations healthcare.
We're beyond GUBU here!

El_Duderino 09

Ipso wrote: »

This is sinister stuff.
How can we give power like this to an organization that is already expected to provide for the nations healthcare.
We're beyond GUBU here!

Ha maybe it should be left to the private sector.

weldoninhio

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Ah that's very simplistic to isolate this issue and examine it in that way. A few weeks ago the law changed to near zero tolerance on drink driving. Did you vote on that? Did anyone ask for your consent? Or did they just suddenly change the law without so much as a bye or leave (sic).

Default organ donation with ability to opt out won't be a matter of " a govt minister deciding that everyone suddenly consents to..." Because it's been announced already to get people talking about it years in advance of it coming into force. There will also be years of notice of any law changing and probably an extended period to opt out before the law comes into force.

There seems to be an effort by some to make this seem sinister when it's just good social policy with a completely free opt out.

If you drink drive you are a societal danger. You aren’t a societal danger by dying in hospital. Your comparing apples and spanners

El_Duderino 09

weldoninhio wrote: »

If you drink drive you are a societal danger. You aren’t a societal danger by dying in hospital. Your comparing apples and spanners

Ah, look. Drink driving and organ donations are apples and spanners. How those two laws came into being are exactly the same. That's the comparison. Nobody voted for drink driving laws not so much as a bye or leave, as you say. That's how laws are made. Organ donation would be absolutely the same in that respect. That's the apples and apples.

jochenstacker

weldoninhio wrote: »

If you drink drive you are a societal danger. You aren’t a societal danger by dying in hospital. Your comparing apples and spanners

I think you're comparing unicorn vomit and cosmic string theroy. :rolleyes:
As for paying you 50k for a kidney, I wouldn't even give you a penny for your thoughts, but here you are spouting it large anyway. I don't remember consenting to that.

Podge_irl

Gadgetman496 wrote: »

We all already know how easy it is to Opt in.

Do we know yet what the procedure will be to Opt out?

It's impossible to opt in currently so by definition this will be easier.

weldoninhio

jochenstacker wrote: »

I think you're comparing unicorn vomit and cosmic string theroy. :rolleyes:
As for paying you 50k for a kidney, I wouldn't even give you a penny for your thoughts, but here you are spouting it large anyway. I don't remember consenting to that.

By signing onto boards.ie you consent to see other peoples posts. :rolleyes:

jochenstacker

weldoninhio wrote: »

By signing onto boards.ie you consent to see other peoples posts. :rolleyes:

Actually you're alright.
You can always tell them because they didn't wear their hat and because the seal wasn't turned you don't consent.
How about this. If you get killed and the state takes your organs, they will totally send you €50k.
Scout's honour and pinky swear.
Should you survive, you can pick up the cash in person at the Lord mayor's office.

jochenstacker

This would need a poll.
It would be the most decisive result ever.
And Atari Jaguar counts as yes.

listermint

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

I'm kind of on the fence with it, one part of me says what's the point in putting perfectly good body parts in the ground which could save someones life, another part of me says what right has the goverment to harvest a body for parts. I think each person in the country should have to specify either for or against what they want to become of their body and be legally required to do so before X date.

For me all that goes out the window if you were looking at your child dying in a hospital bed.

All this government taking my body parts etc diminishes into idealistic nonsense.

Death has a habit of opening ones thought process

Mrs Shuttleworth

pleas advice wrote: »

Decision rests with the family, as it always did.
Welcome move though

No it doesn't if you read the small print of the English draft bill which ours will mirror. Doctors will proceed to harvest unless the family expressly contact the doctor - the onus is on the family to alert, not the doctors to check first. This has chilling implications for clinical care.

I went to the "opt out" link of the Welsh NHS Organ Donation page. Amazingly the system allowed me to register an opt out without a UK National Insurance number. Laughably, I was then asked for explicit consent for cookies and GDPR.

Here is the message I got back:

"Thank you

Step 1 – Complete

Thank you, your decision not to donate your organs or tissue after your death will be recorded on the NHS Organ Donor Register, and we will post a letter of confirmation to the postal address you provided to us. Please be aware that the letter may take up to ten weeks to arrive. If you prefer, you can call us on 0300 123 23 23 to confirm that your details have been registered.

Step 2 – Please talk to your family

It is essential to let your family know that you have made the decision not to be an organ and tissue donor when you die. If you die in circumstances where donation is possible, we will talk to your family about the fact that you had registered a decision not to donate and check that they do not have any more recent information about your decision.

They won’t know what you want unless you tell them, so help them to support your decision at a difficult time by talking to them about it now.

If you change your mind, you can amend your registration at any time

You might be interested to see the amazing difference organ donors can make

Are you interested in being a blood donor?

If you're aged 17-65 you can register to be a blood donor."

How safe and foolproof actually is this system?

end of the road

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

No it doesn't if you read the small print of the English draft bill which ours will mirror. Doctors will proceed to harvest unless the family expressly contact the doctor - the onus is on the family to alert, not the doctors to check first. This has chilling implications for clinical care.

I went to the "opt out" link of the Welsh NHS Organ Donation page. Amazingly the system allowed me to register an opt out without a UK National Insurance number. Laughably, I was then asked for explicit consent for cookies and GDPR.

Here is the message I got back:

"Thank you

Step 1 – Complete

Thank you, your decision not to donate your organs or tissue after your death will be recorded on the NHS Organ Donor Register, and we will post a letter of confirmation to the postal address you provided to us. Please be aware that the letter may take up to ten weeks to arrive. If you prefer, you can call us on 0300 123 23 23 to confirm that your details have been registered.

Step 2 – Please talk to your family

It is essential to let your family know that you have made the decision not to be an organ and tissue donor when you die. If you die in circumstances where donation is possible, we will talk to your family about the fact that you had registered a decision not to donate and check that they do not have any more recent information about your decision.

They won’t know what you want unless you tell them, so help them to support your decision at a difficult time by talking to them about it now.

If you change your mind, you can amend your registration at any time

You might be interested to see the amazing difference organ donors can make

Are you interested in being a blood donor?

If you're aged 17-65 you can register to be a blood donor."

How safe and foolproof actually is this system?

i'm wondering if perhapse the nhs want to cover themselves internationally in relation to organ donation. for example if a foreign national is visiting the uk and dies there in circumstances where harvesting could be viable, then how would it normally work? could they still harvest the organs? or can they only harvest from uk citizens?
perhapse if someone wishes to opt out, it's probably no harm to make that clear on as many countries systems as possible just in case?

Doc07

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

No it doesn't if you read the small print of the English draft bill which ours will mirror. Doctors will proceed to harvest unless the family expressly contact the doctor - the onus is on the family to alert, not the doctors to check first. This has chilling implications

This is absolutely not true.

greencap

i dont know if this has been brought up already.

But from one philosophical perspective there is an incentive to carry a card.

Any person is a grouping of constituent parts.

So if you die suddenly, then when your parts are harvested, and implemented into a new body, that part of you gets to live on.

So part of you doesn't die. It just makes use of a 90% complete body as a
support mechanism.

Apparently people who have received (or is it hosted?) donated organs have developed the same food tastes as the donor.

So if your love of breakfast rolls is still knocking about in one area, and your heart is still beating in another area, then can you truly be said to be gone?

Or have you just branched out?

Guy:Incognito

weldoninhio wrote: »

He got a new kidney a few years ago. He'd gotten one a few years previous from his aunt but after 2 years it started to fail again. He still had a decent quality of life when on dialysis, worked away and was able to socialise.

I'd be saving the HSE money by taking E50k from them as a one off payment rather than them having to fork out E500k a year, per person, on dialysis. It's simple economics.

He wouldnt be on dialysis for years if there was plenty of donors......

Guy:Incognito

greencap wrote: »

i dont know if this has been brought up already.

But from one philosophical perspective there is an incentive to carry a card.

Any person is a grouping of constituent parts.

So if you die suddenly, then when your parts are harvested, and implemented into a new body, that part of you gets to live on.

So part of you doesn't die. It just makes use of a 90% complete body as a
support mechanism.

Apparently people who have received (or is it hosted?) donated organs have developed the same food tastes as the donor.

So if your love of breakfast rolls is still knocking about in one area, and your heart is still beating in another area, then can you truly be said to be gone?

Or have you just branched out?

Your new organ and the blood in it infecting a new body with a craving for sugar that you had but they didn't isnt some big "omg my soul" thing.

Mrs Shuttleworth

Doc07 wrote: »

This is absolutely not true.

Yes it is.

Read it.

https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-8236