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Irish rail fleet and infrastructure plans

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Comments

  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,435 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Yes, I get where you are coming from, but there is already a split between the ICR’s and the loco hauled fleet and freight. Really you would be just moving where the split is, to between all passenger trains being MU, while freight is obviously loco hauled. It feels like a more natural split.

    In the long term I could even see the new train model being used for the enterprise (and Mark4 replacement) forming the eventual basis for a future long term replacement for the ICRs. So in the very long term all intercity trains end up being the same rolling stock or at least some variants of the same.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,349 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Has NIR given any indication of intentions locomotive wise, specifically with respect to the 111s?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,428 ✭✭✭p_haugh




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 234 ✭✭PlatformNine


    The more I think about it, I realise it does make more sense to have one type for the IC fleet, and the benifits of having a second IC type are outweighed by the drawbacks. Having just one type would make ordering, commissioning, and maintaining the fleet much easier. I also didn't considerer that most IC services use the section from Heuston to Portarlington, meaning they should all be 180/200 km/h capable anyways (assuming that is what the Enterprise fleet is capable of).

    In that case I would assume the outer commuters (especially the Kildare line and Dundalk services) should also use the same sets? Maybe just a HC interior? I think that is more or less what they do now with the Kildare line commuters but I would hope with speed improvements they would continue that, especially for the northern line commuters.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,428 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    Even Geoff made an appearance at Inchicore for the launch event!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,814 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Have all the 5 ICRs got reformed yet?

    I am fed up of sold out trains online because they have a 5 car config when they are always 6 car sets for the past few weeks.

    They really need to review the online allocations and chage FTP holders more to reverse a seat.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭Economics101


    I saw somewhere recently that 5 of the 10 Premier ICR sets were 5-car and 5 were 6-car. Also that there are apparently some issues regarding the approval of the 41 new carriages to operate in Northern Ireland.

    Are the 5-car sets those operating the hourly DUblin-Belfast services?, i.e. those which have not yet got a new (B2?) carriage) .This might explain things.

    However this is partly speculation on my part.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,313 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    None of the premier class 6 coach sets include any of the new 41 carriages so no reason to delay, the sets used to Belfast are 6 coach sets, but there are only 3 with the NIR equipment fitted



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,969 ✭✭✭Citizen  Six


    Bit of a head in the sand issue with these new B2 cars from Irish Rail. They are causing a lot of delays on services, with no communication about rectifying the issues.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,814 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    There has to be more than 5 done by now, I might be wrong but most if not all are done.

    Someone needs to fix the online capacity.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,969 ✭✭✭Citizen  Six


    The issues with the new B2 cars is starting to be realised by the media. Hopefully the company will take meaningful steps to deal with it now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,969 ✭✭✭Citizen  Six


    For anyone that doesn't have a sub:

    The reliability of Irish Rail trains fell significantly in the first nine months of 2024, with delays across the network increasing almost three-fold.

    Reliability was affected by breakdown and maintenance issues as well as software problems and the introduction of 41 new railcars that turned out to have problems with “hybrid-ready power packs”.

    The power packs are built by Rolls-Royce in Germany and are designed to allow intercity trains to run on electricity in cities and regenerate power from braking. They are expected to create significant diesel-fuel savings.

    Overall, some 2,413 minutes were lost across the network during Period One of Irish Rail’s accounting timeline – which corresponds to the first four weeks of last year.

    However, by Period 10, the four weeks to October 1st, the numbers of lost minutes in four weeks had increased to 10,039 – almost tripling the amount of time lost to delays.

    The amount of time lost relates to fleet issues only, and is separate to figures for delays caused by changes to the Irish Rail timetable that were introduced in August and later reversed.

    By Period 11 – or the first four weeks of October, the numbers of minutes being lost was down to 9,212. Figures for the remainder of the year have not been released.

    The figures were released by Irish Rail chief mechanical engineer Peter Smyth at an internal staff awards scheme for maintenance staff known as the Golden Spanner Awards, towards the end of November.

    Mr Smyth is reported in the January 2025 edition of the UK publication Modern Railways as having told staff “the company needs to see a real focus on fleet reliability improvement programmes for all of its train fleets”.

    The Irish Times sent Irish Rail a copy of the Modern Railways article for verification and comment.

    In a subsequent statement Irish Rail spokesman Barry Kenny acknowledged the reliability issues, saying: “there have been more delays relating to train faults. We have a series of actions in place to resolve these, covering software resolution for 41 Intercity railcars.”

    He said “the software resolutions for the 41 Inter City Railcars are in the process of being deployed, and [this] is expected to be complete during January”.

    Mr Kenny continued: “We also are addressing a traction motor issue on our 201-class locomotives, which will be resolved in the coming weeks.”

    Asked for comment, a spokesman for Rail Users Ireland said the figures were “extremely concerning”. Mark Gleeson said “passengers need reassurance the fleet will be restored to historical levels of reliability”.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 234 ✭✭PlatformNine


    The problems with the B2 cars is frustrating especially after how long it took to get them in service, but the 201 Class issues surprise me a bit. However if they aren't really focusing on it, I'd hope the problem isn't anything too bad?

    If they are starting to have more issues with them, IE already plans on ordering new locos soon to replace the 071 by 2030 ( or at least that had been the plan), so I wonder if this might push them to start replacing the 201s at the same time or shortly after the 071s.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,814 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Not the first time software issues have caused problems.

    If this is leading to delays daily dispatching trains, there is one solution. Train prep needs to start earlier until recurring faults are resolved.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,969 ✭✭✭Citizen  Six


    Some issues aren't showing up during prep though, and no error message on the MMI either.

    Lack of feedback and support to the people operating the trains too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 463 ✭✭Rootsblower


    would help if the adblue tank was filled



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,969 ✭✭✭Citizen  Six




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 234 ✭✭PlatformNine


    I have been reading through and tyring to understand IEs plans for Heuston and Connolly with the Heuston Masterplan and Connolly Quarter plans(now Dublin Arch?). I understand that they plan to develop a large part of the area surrounding the stations into mixed-use development. But I have been wondering if this is common rail practice and/or if this is the best option for the network? Also how finalised are the plans? While it seems plans for Dublin Arch/Connolly Quarter has progressed good a bit, there aren't any shovels in the ground yet (edit: construction has already started, I just never noticed). And I can't tell where the Heuston Masterplan is, though I imagine it probably can't move forward until after D+SW has progressed more.

    I completely understand wanting to develop the areas around the stations. Connolly is a central and urban area with a large car park and being a commuter hub is perfect for high density urban development. and Heuston while not being as central, is a very large area that can be developed, especially with its massive carpark, and the area around the NTCC being reasonably undeveloped. However completely developing the areas, leaving no room to expand/improve the stations feels a bit short sighted to me.

    While it does concern me at least a bit for Connolly, as especially after four-tracking I think it will limit the capacity at Connolly, it's Heuston that worries me the most. While I don't know if removing the Guinness sidings will make much of difference for current operations, the plans to completely turn the carpark and area surrounding the NTCC into mixed use development feels a bit short sighted. As the network expands and the number of rails services increase, is the current station going to be enough? Even before the AISRR, they planned on reaching hourly services on the core IC services and two hourly on most other services, and even half-hourly peak Cork-Dublin services. And now post-AISRR, there are further reccomendations to send Sligo and Wexford services to Heuston, not to mention potentially increased frequency on outer commuters if it becomes needed. Even with phasing out locomotive hauled services and other improvements around Heuston we are seeing as part of D+, without more sidings and/or platforms could Heuston become a serious bottleneck for the IC network?

    Post edited by PlatformNine on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,888 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    201's are/are coming up to 30 years old at this point, they first showed up mid 90's if I'm not mistaken, they're getting to that age where running costs/mechanical work start to become a real problem.

    Normally you do a mid-life refit on Locos when they get to 20, I dont know if the 201's ever got a refit.

    The 071 class is approaching the big Five O . They must be some of the oldest Locos in the EU still in service, a real testament to their designers/manufacturers.

    I doubt either loco will be replaced in the next 10 years. Sure I don't think there is even a tender for them yet, plus there's a huge wait time on those kind of orders.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭Economics101


    I should imagine a lot depends on the quality of maintenance. There are many EMD and GE diesels in the USA which are older than the 071s and are still going strong sometimes after re-builds. I know electric locos are a different case, but Portuguese Railways (CP) have resurrected a 50-year old class of mainline locos which had been stopped and stored outdoors for about a decade.

    Sure, there is a tradeoff with higher maintenance costs, but that's a matter of detailed and careful calculation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,969 ✭✭✭Citizen  Six


    No shovels in the ground at Connolly? I guess you must have missed the pile drivers. 😂



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 234 ✭✭PlatformNine


    I don't believe they were ever refitted, which I think is part of the problem, as unless they do want the 201s to see a 50 or more year life span, I don't think it would be worth it now. Like you say, there are about 30 years old now and the oldest units would have started testing in 1994. Hence why I think if they are starting to experience more problems with them, they may choose to start replacing then shortly after the 071s are replaced, assuming that does happen in the next 5-10 years. That said I don't see the 201s being replaced before they turn 40, though if their reliability becomes more of an issue, I could potentially see them pulled from Cork-Dublin by then.

    As for the 071s, not only are they just old units, I believe part of the problem is just numbers. With the way IE wants to increase the number of freight services (especially with the opening of the Foynes line soon) they might need more locos. Reinstating more 201s could be an option but I can't imagine that would be cheap and would likely only serve as a short term solution, if its even possible as I believe many of them are in a poor state.

    Though I would be surprised if they still manage to replace them by 2030, as the plans for that were made in the middle of COVID. But if in 10 years they haven't at least started to replace some units, I would be very surprised. I am think we could see a tender put out in the next year or two, after they have finished tendering the Enterprise fleet.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 234 ✭✭PlatformNine


    Ha! There isn't a sound I hate more in this world, so I can't complain if I haven't noticed. Has that just started or am I just insane?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,601 ✭✭✭Glaceon


    The 201s got body overhauls about 10 years ago, the HEP equipment was isolated at the same time so the sockets were removed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,442 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    i think it's likely the 071 will outlast the 201 by quite a while in all honesty as while they are elderly they are reliable well built machines.
    so they will be kept going as long as they can be because they are go anywhere as well.
    remember some of those 201s have been flogged to death via the use of HEP on the enterprise as well so that won't help their engines.
    as for the other issues of connolly and heuston area development unfortunately i can see a situation where sidings are removed and any trains not diagrammed on to another service quite quickly will be sent out of the city to be stored until needed again.
    yeah yeah i know it sounds mad and it's stupid and shouldn't happen i hear you believe me and completely agree but look this is ireland and we do things arseways.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,888 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    I'd say it's quite possible, sure the class 37's are still in service in the UK and they were built in the 60's right? I think a lot of those Locos are still in service because leasing agreements with newer locos are power by the hour.

    I was checking order/delivery times on various Diesel Locos in the EU over the last X years, you're looking at about a 2 year lead time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,442 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    class 37 i think were built 1960 to 1962.

    lots of reasons why they are still in use from the fact they are mostly go anywhere locos for which it seems there are no no new locos currently available that can offer the same go anywhere ability, to spares being widely available due to the large number of the class, to affordability of replacements, to leasing arrangements.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,969 ✭✭✭Citizen  Six


    I think the pile driving work was 2023. Some of the roads were shortened while it was carried out. There was structural work done on the buildings along Sheriff St. Lower too. I've got some photos from site visits somewhere, so if I come across them I'll post them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 881 ✭✭✭DumbBrunette


    Decent video here of the track replacement works on the loop line over Christmas. Particularly interesting to see the synthetic sleepers, I'm not sure if they've been used in Ireland before.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,313 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    Not the first use of synthetic sleepers, there are some in Dun Laoghaire



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭Economics101


    This may be slightly off-topic, but I can't find a more suitable thread. Irish Rail's website normally has data on Train punctuality and reliability. But for the past couple of days all the relavant pages show no data - just a total blank. I wonder how long before they rectify this. And the 6-year old Twitter/X post on Hamish the missing dog keeps on being displayed.

    Maybe the NTA should do something useful for once, and crack the whip.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,814 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭Economics101


    Thanks, but while I can get data for 2023 or earlier, 2024 shows no data. A couple of months ago is was OK right up to November 2024.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11 EVBusFan


    The individual route links on the 2024 page are broken and lead to the individual routes for 2025

    If you go to the 2024 page and then scroll to the tables down you should be able to see the results:

    Train Punctuality and Reliability Performance

    The tables aren't labled with the year but you can see the puctuality drop as expected from the August timetable change:

    Edit: The site has now updated and the 2024 page works as expected:

    Train Punctuality and Reliability Performance

    Post edited by EVBusFan on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,797 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    I’ll admit that when they started building the new platform at Kent station, I didn’t see how it would work. But I’ve used the train before Christmas and used the train today and it seems like it should’ve been obvious how it would work.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,275 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    That was weird, is the NTA reading this thread?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,814 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    You would be surprised who reads here.
    Many more apart from some of the front line workers who contribute.

    —-

    Regarding OTP. There should be 12 periods covering each year not 13 and make things simple.

    Secondly, regardless of weather in January. You know things are bad when Belfast is best performing intercity route for the month.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,428 ✭✭✭p_haugh




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,969 ✭✭✭Citizen  Six


    They were still testing with the 22000 last week, but I think that's the last of it. Once the new Dart completes testing in Inchicore, it'll be out on the main road over there. Then it can come over to the northside for testing with the OHLE and ETCS system.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 234 ✭✭PlatformNine


    I think there is still a ways to go on the tendering process, but I think this year or next year ETCS installation on the rest of the network is supposed to begin? It sounds like installing ETCS on Greystones-Dundalk has gone well overall, which gives me high hopes for the process on the rest of the network.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,313 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    Planning has already been done and the configuration, number of signals, modules etc already set

    There are markers out at all installation locations network wide already



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,428 ✭✭✭p_haugh




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,560 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    I’d assume that they’d surely reform it using a coach from a 3 car set if it’s only the driving coach damaged - better to be without a 3-car set than a six-car set?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,428 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    Yeah I'd imagine it'll be reformed, will still be a number weeks I'd imagine though



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,814 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    I agree it will be reformed.

    They could also return some 3 to 4 or 4 to 5 coach sets if reforming this set was not possible. Less testing and may paperwork could save time.


    edit-wrong set info.

    Post edited by Jamie2k9 on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,190 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Changing a 3-car ICR into a 4-car, etc., reforming them, can this happen at any station?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,442 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    no, has to be done at portlaoise or droghida depots i believe.

    actually it might be portlaoise only.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,445 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    All equipment was configured, installed and tested in one year between October 2024 and November 2024. 

    I presume they meant October 2023

    I'm partial to your abracadabra,

    I'm raptured by the joy of it all.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,445 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Tara St, yesterday.

    Any particular reason those nuts aren't tightetened up?

    I'm partial to your abracadabra,

    I'm raptured by the joy of it all.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,814 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Not sure but they have no check rail added yet so could be why.



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