Mercedes C350e 100% battery says 19km (reality 10km)

mobyduck

Hi all,

Recently bought a nearly 3yo Mercedes C350e (UK import through an established Irish main dealer). Great spec and it's a beautiful car to drive. It's my first PHEV so I am enjoying getting to understand how it drives and what I can expect from it.

From reviews and specs, when charged to 100%, I fully expected it to "lie" and suggest I have, say 30km range (but deliver real world 15-18km). However when charging (either from home or by recharging from the petrol engine), the battery maxes out at 100% with a suggested range of only 18/19km but then in reality I'm not sure I'm getting even 10km.

This is not motorway driving, mainly pootling around the 'burbs with some regen at lights etc.

Is this a known issue or expected with a 3yo battery?

(BTW given that most of our trips are pretty short and that we have been pretty diligent in plugging it in at home 2 or 3 times a day between short trips, we are still seeing 70% of our kilometres traveled on battery which is super cool)

However would still like to understand if I should be getting more than 10k from this battery.

cheers!

unkel

Nice car and glad you do so much of your travel on electric!

Unfortunately, the battery in your car is one of the smallest fitted to any PHEV of that size at just 6.2kWh. Your range on electric is going to be severely restricted. In comparison, the 2011 Opel Ampera / Chevrolet Volt has a battery of 16kWh and most other PHEV of that size have at least 10kWh. That said, I would have thought that your battery should give you at least 20km range. There are ways to hook up your car on the OBD2 port and read out what the state of health of your battery is. If a lot lower than could have been expected for the year, you might have come back under warranty

KCross

mobyduck wrote: »

Is this a known issue or expected with a 3yo battery?

Your 10km is in the right ball park for this time of year.

UK drivers say about 7 miles in winter and twice that in summer. Its obviously dependent on your driving style but it is a small battery so 10km is about right I'd say.

mobyduck

Hi unkel / KCross,

Thanks for quick and informative answers.

I'll read up on the OBD2 thing, have not used one before but I believe a friend has done this before.

Had expected _some_ max range fall off due to generate temperatures at this time of year but interesting to hear that others are reporting significant difference. I'll keep an eye out to see if starts improving in march/april when we move towards our "summer".

cheers

unkel

I just guessed the figure of 20km, but KCross clearly did some research and your range looks like it is normal based on that. 10km from 6.2kWh is pretty atrocious though, that's 62kWh/100km (my own EV does about 16kWh/100km in the worst parts of winter). Perhaps the available battery capacity is a lot smaller than the claimed / total battery capacity of 6.2kWh

Mike9832

unkel wrote: »

I just guessed the figure of 20km, but KCross clearly did some research and your range looks like it is normal based on that. 10km from 6.2kWh is pretty atrocious though, that's 62kWh/100km (my own EV does about 16kWh/100km in the worst parts of winter). Perhaps the available battery capacity is a lot smaller than the claimed / total battery capacity of 6.2kWh

Useable is about 4.5kWh

Bad idea those tiny battery phevs

They have batteries that are going to be run from full to empty every day of their short lives.

Unless they have a chemistry like Lithium titanate, which could last 10,000 cycles

grange girl

Hi Mobyduck, I am a phev driver doing lots of short runs as well (in a Golf GTE) and I find that once the temp goes below 10 degrees, the distance I can travel on electric falls off a lot. With all the traffic this time of year, it is totally depressing, regen doesn't really make that much difference. I suppose the best way to look at it is that every km in electric in a built up area is a real positive and, for me, a big part of why I have the car. The warmer weather is coming again!

mobyduck

grange girl wrote: »

Hi Mobyduck, I am a phev driver doing lots of short runs as well (in a Golf GTE) and I find that once the temp goes below 10 degrees, the distance I can travel on electric falls off a lot. With all the traffic this time of year, it is totally depressing, regen doesn't really make that much difference. I suppose the best way to look at it is that every km in electric in a built up area is a real positive and, for me, a big part of why I have the car. The warmer weather is coming again!

Yep interested to track the gains in range as weather improves! Any one else find they start driving like a granny in PHEV in order to wring every last bit of range from battery? 🙂

Elessar

mobyduck wrote: »

Yep interested to track the gains in range as weather improves! Any one else find they start driving like a granny in PHEV in order to wring every last bit of range from battery? ��

Absolutely It's a blessing and a curse. Funny though I've found (along with others over on pistonheads.com) that fast acceleration to get up to speed gives me greater range than accelerating like a granny. It comes down to using a lot of energy very quickly, rather than less energy over a longer time. Fits well with the power of the car!

OP my BMW 330e has a similar battery capacity and I get around ~20km in the winter. The colder weather combined with the heater being on takes a lot of juice out of the battery. Combine that with stop/start traffic and you get a hit on range. 10km does seem quite low though, have you searched online for ranges from other owners?

zilog_jones

Mike9832 wrote: »

Useable is about 4.5kWh

Bad idea those tiny battery phevs

They have batteries that are going to be run from full to empty every day of their short lives.

But as you say, the usable capacity is much smaller than the full capacity of the battery, so they're not being "run from full to empty", ever.

My Prius Plug-in is 6 years old now (4.4 kWh battery), and I have not seen any substantial degradation in range since I got it in 2016. I do see it go down a bit in winter though.

lotmc

My 2015 PHEV (Porsche Cayenne e-hybrid) was marketed by Porsche as having a max range of 32km, but I have never heard of anyone getting this distance. I've never seen the dashboard range indicate higher than 24km, and this is common with other Cayennes based upon what I have seen on various websites. I am currently getting 18 - 20km in real life, based upon using the heating / heated seats as sparingly as possible. It has been as low as 13km on very cold days, with generous use of heating etc.
It has a 10.8kwh battery, but the overall weight is 2.35 tonnes so the battery has a lot of work to do.

I dont think the battery has degraded much since new. Real life range is massively affected by external temperature, and using all the heating stuff.

I rarely use the e-charge petrol charging function, as this only makes sense if you use it on motorways just before you leave the motorway and then drive in an urban area.

Averaging at 70% electric mileage, which is giving a long-term 72 mpg. Am very happy with that.

Next car will definitely be a PHEV, but thats probably because most of my driving is urban, and I do about 10,000 km p.a.

n97 mini

OP, are you using the heating? It kills the battery and the smaller the battery the more noticeable that's going to be. The old Leaf with the resistor heater knocked 25% off the GOM as soon as you turned it on. That's about 5kw/h worth.

lotmc wrote: »

My 2015 PHEV (Porsche Cayenne e-hybrid) was marketed by Porsche as having a max range of 32km, but I have never heard of anyone getting this distance. I've never seen the dashboard range indicate higher than 24km, and this is common with other Cayennes based upon what I have seen on various websites. I am currently getting 18 - 20km in real life, based upon using the heating / heated seats as sparingly as possible. It has been as low as 13km on very cold days, with generous use of heating etc.
It has a 10.8kwh battery, but the overall weight is 2.35 tonnes so the battery has a lot of work to do.

I dont think the battery has degraded much since new. Real life range is massively affected by external temperature, and using all the heating stuff.

I rarely use the e-charge petrol charging function, as this only makes sense if you use it on motorways just before you leave the motorway and then drive in an urban area.

Averaging at 70% electric mileage, which is giving a long-term 72 mpg. Am very happy with that.

Next car will definitely be a PHEV, but thats probably because most of my driving is urban, and I do about 10,000 km p.a.

Prime candidate for a Model S P100D. Will spank any Porsche

unkel

n97 mini wrote: »

Prime candidate for a Model S P100D. Will spank any Porsche

Porsche still has the world record 0-100km/h acceleration time. In a petrol car.

Tesla might take it with the next software update, but I'd say soon enough the likes of Porsche will take it back. With an EV this time.

n97 mini

unkel wrote: »

Porsche still has the world record 0-100km/h acceleration time. In a petrol car.

*Cough* It actually doesn't. AMZ Racing does, in an EV (1.513 seconds).

Porsche's 918 (an $845,000 hybrid, which is no longer made) clocks 2.2 seconds.

Model S P100D clocks 2.28 seconds.

The fastest petrol only car that you can actually buy right now is the Dodge Challenger SRT Demon, which clocks 2.3 seconds.

...so, the fastest car you can buy right now is the P100D

n97 mini

Doug on the Demon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCp-kE9sqxw

Mike9832

zilog_jones wrote: »

But as you say, the usable capacity is much smaller than the full capacity of the battery, so they're not being "run from full to empty", ever.

My Prius Plug-in is 6 years old now (4.4 kWh battery), and I have not seen any substantial degradation in range since I got it in 2016. I do see it go down a bit in winter though.

If u run it down every day it will degrade, buffer helps but that gets eaten up too

An excellent lithium cell is good for 3000 cycles ( full to empty)

A Prius battery with 20km of range x 3000 cycles is good for 60k km on electric only range before degradation will set it in

That same lithium cell in a 300km EV would last 900k km

Thats why I don't like pluggin hybrids

Mike9832

n97 mini wrote: »

*Cough* It actually doesn't. AMZ Racing does, in an EV (1.513 seconds).

Porsche's 918 (an $845,000 hybrid, which is no longer made) clocks 2.2 seconds.

Model S P100D clocks 2.28 seconds.

The fastest petrol only car that you can actually buy right now is the Dodge Challenger SRT Demon, which clocks 2.3 seconds.

...so, the fastest car you can buy right now is the P100D

Tesla will go into limp mode after about 30 secs of full on acceleration too

Porsche will go all day

You cant compare Porsche and Tesla

KCross

Mike9832 wrote: »

A Prius battery with 20km of range x 3000 cycles is good for 60k km on electric only range before degradation will set it in

That same lithium cell in a 300km EV would last 900k km

Thats why I don't like pluggin hybrids

Battery cycling doesn’t work in that simplistic way. Zilog’s previous post proves it too.

If Prius batteries were dead at 60k km’s we would be hearing about wholesale warranty claims!

KCross

Mike9832 wrote: »

Tesla will go into limp mode after about 30 secs of full on acceleration too

Porsche will go all day

You cant compare Porsche and Tesla

I thought that was only for early Tesla’s? I thought I saw drag races where a Tesla was repeatedly ran at full tilt in ludicrous mode over and over.

Who cares anyway, its not a race car. Porsche is a different class car so I agree they shouldn’t really be compared.

Mike9832

KCross wrote: »

Battery cycling doesn’t work in that simplistic way. Zilog’s previous post proves it too.

If Prius batteries were dead at 60k km’s we would be hearing about wholesale warranty claims!

It wouldn't have done anywhere near 60k km on electric only

Mostly will have been driven by combustion engine

Mike9832

KCross wrote: »

I thought that was only for early Tesla’s? I thought I saw drag races where a Tesla was repeatedly ran at full tilt in ludicrous mode over and over.

Who cares anyway, its not a race car. Porsche is a different class car so I agree they shouldn’t really be compared.

Model 3 is the only one not affected ( still losses power, but only slightly )

P100D goes into limp mode quickly on high speed Autobahn runs from what I have seen and on a track it can barely goes a few mins without power restriction

I would say who cares too, but P100D is supposed to be a performance car

AMG Mercedes, BMW M power etc would never release a performance car like that, P100D can't even cruise at 155mph for long periods, even bog standard 3.0 diesels can do that all day

zilog_jones

Mike9832 wrote: »

It wouldn't have done anywhere near 60k km on electric only

Mostly will have been driven by combustion engine

Mine's only done 67k miles total (37% EV mode with my driving), but there are many elsewhere which have done well over 100k miles and the battery's still fine, and Toyota will maintain the battery warranty up to 10 years (15k km per year) so they must think it'll last quite a while (the warranty does not cover some degradation, but it will still need to be functional).

The battery is also working all the time when in normal hybrid mode, though using a limited SOC range (around 20-30% unless I do some serious regen).

We're talking about 96 cells here, not just one like in a mobile phone or whatever. There's a lot more redundancy and better management in PHEV traction batteries compared to typical handheld consumer devices - they're not comparable at all.

KCross

Mike9832 wrote: »

Model 3 is the only one not affected ( still losses power, but only slightly )

P100D goes into limp mode quickly on high speed Autobahn runs from what I have seen and on a track it can barely goes a few mins without power restriction

I would say who cares too, but P100D is supposed to be a performance car

AMG Mercedes, BMW M power etc would never release a performance car like that, P100D can't even cruise at 155mph for long periods, even bog standard 3.0 diesels can do that all day

Here is the post I remember from cros13..
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=102553120&postcount=9

Seems it was only early Tesla's that were s/w limited and doesnt apply anymore.

Mike9832

KCross wrote: »

Here is the post I remember from cros13..
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=102553120&postcount=9

Seems it was only early Tesla's that were s/w limited and doesnt apply anymore.

Cros13 is much smarter than me, but this is still a problem

Comes up all the time on Tesla forums

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/driving-high-speed-on-the-autobahn-not-possible.113156/

Mike9832

zilog_jones wrote: »

Mine's only done 67k miles total (37% EV mode with my driving), but there are many elsewhere which have done well over 100k miles and the battery's still fine, and Toyota will maintain the battery warranty up to 10 years (15k km per year) so they must think it'll last quite a while (the warranty does not cover some degradation, but it will still need to be functional).

The battery is also working all the time when in normal hybrid mode, though using a limited SOC range (around 20-30% unless I do some serious regen).

We're talking about 96 cells here, not just one like in a mobile phone or whatever. There's a lot more redundancy and better management in PHEV traction batteries compared to typical handheld consumer devices - they're not comparable at all.

Toyota know what they are doing alright, some others don't

Have read a good bit on outlander degrading a good bit earlier than 100k miles EV mode

After 100k miles in ev mode degradation will set in even in the Toyota

Warranty doesnt cover it as not many will do 100k miles on EV mode

If thats 33% of driving then car will have done 300k miles, can't really ask for more

KCross

Mike9832 wrote: »

Cros13 is much smarter than me, but this is still a problem

Comes up all the time on Tesla forums

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/driving-high-speed-on-the-autobahn-not-possible.113156/

Seems he had an older car then with the s/w limitation?
See post 17 and 19 in your thread.... they say its not a problem for their Tesla's on the autobahn.

Mike9832

KCross wrote: »

Seems he had an older car then with the s/w limitation?
See post 17 and 19 in your thread.... they say its not a problem for their Tesla's on the autobahn.

Interesting

Will read through it

I know Bjorn has a video of his Model X losing power on the Autobahn at 200+

His Tesla is older too I think

n97 mini

Mike9832 wrote: »

Porsche will go all day

Mike9832 wrote: »

even bog standard 3.0 diesels can do that all day

Measures of fuel capacity, not performance.

Mike9832

n97 mini wrote: »

Measures of fuel capacity, not performance.

Teslas can't drive at max speed for long periods, they overheat

It is performance

At least early ones anywa

Skip to 2:44

https://youtu.be/UuX0wu3idJg

mobyduck

n97 mini wrote: »

OP, are you using the heating? It kills the battery and the smaller the battery the more noticeable that's going to be. The old Leaf with the resistor heater knocked 25% off the GOM as soon as you turned it on. That's about 5kw/h worth.



Prime candidate for a Model S P100D. Will spank any Porsche

Hey, I’ve been pretty careful with the heating but may need it soon if a cold snap comes in!

Goose81

Hi, sorry for resurrecting an old thread. Going to look at a 182 c class 350 e tomorrow. Has anyone driven one since this thread? My commute is 15km into work and 15km back, even if I can't just drive on pure electric on that distance and the battery is in bad shape I assume it will still help with fuel economy?

Car has like 80k km on it

I would like to exclusively drive it electric if I could, will that mess it up? Am I better just leaving it in hybrid mode