Employer forcing me to work over Christmas

IrishGirl18

So 2018 hasn't been my greatest year, My mum got diagnosed with breast cancer back in August and its been a tough road since.
My employers have been completely aware of this situation as you can imagine I had to take a few days off since August to attend appointments etc..
Roll on November, my Brother got called to go overseas for 6 months with the army as they were short and needed an extra body. Because of this my Mum would be on her own for Christmas if I wasn't there.
I explained this to my employer back in November and they said they would try their best.
Its getting closer and closer to Christmas and im in constant contact asking about Christmas, each time I get no reply.
I received a message from manager this morning saying my roster is the same, 8-5 monday to friday. Meaning im working all over Christmas yet yesterday when I had a meeting with a manager they said we'll try work something out for Christmas day only.
I explained to them that as I do not drive and there is no buses Christmas Day I would not be able to get into work, everyone I know is not working Christmas so there is no one to grab a lift off, not only that but my Mum lives down the country while I work and live in Dublin so getting down to her would be impossible. I asked about a regional manager giving me a lift as they done so back in March in the snow to get everyone into work, their reply was "we'll see the closer it gets" (??).
To top it all of, they want me to fill the position of supervisor over the Christmas but not get paid extra just my basic rate ?

I would really appreciate some advice on what my options are or if I even have any options.

Thanks in advance!

EDIT:
Juts thought I would add that this company is "Irelands largest employer" in this particular work field so there is plenty of cover work to replace me for two days.

mikekerry

they want you to work xmas day?
I presume you get double -time?
that sounds like a terrible place to work

IrishGirl18

mikekerry wrote: »

they want you to work xmas day?
I presume you get double -time?
that sounds like a terrible place to work

I think its time and a third, im not too sure.


Its a little bix toxic to be honest but I need this job

Cushie Butterfield

Consider bringing her to stay with you in Dublin for the Christmas period.

cruizer101

What sort of work do you do, it is very uncommon to have to work christmas day, outside of emergency services.
And normally it should be timetabled well in advance so it is clear.
That said it is just a public holiday so your entitlements are the same as for others.

On a Public Holiday All workers are entitled to one of these :
A paid day off on the public holiday
An additional day of annual leave
An additional day’s pay
A paid day off within a month of the public holiday

Sounds like a crappy place to work mind I'd be looking for something else.

IrishGirl18

Cushie Butterfield wrote: »

Consider bringing her to stay with you in Dublin for the Christmas period.

Shes not really fit to travel to be honest

mikekerry

"Consider bringing her to stay with you in Dublin for the Christmas period"
what ! she is working xmas, day, do you expect her mother to come up to Dublin for the day out of the family home and wait in an apartment or house until she comes home.
seriously.

IrishGirl18

cruizer101 wrote: »

What sort of work do you do, it is very uncommon to have to work christmas day, outside of emergency services.
And normally it should be timetabled well in advance so it is clear.
That said it is just a public holiday so your entitlements are the same as for others.

On a Public Holiday All workers are entitled to one of these :
A paid day off on the public holiday
An additional day of annual leave
An additional day’s pay
A paid day off within a month of the public holiday

Sounds like a crappy place to work mind I'd be looking for something else.

I work in Security, the site im on has to be manned 24/7.
Ive already used all my holidays plus a few unpaid days & a couple days of force Majeure leave, I pretty much have nothing left to take off and thats what their saying

Pintman Paddy Losty

Call in sick. Fcuk them. You've tried to sort it out.

cgcsb

Sounds illegal

mikekerry

just call in sick and look for a new job in the year.
there are plenty of jobs going in Dublin.
there's more to life to than taking crap like that

seamus

This sounds like a pretty crap scenario, but it also sounds like whatever the company is, is always open on Xmas day. So somebody has to draw the short straw, and this year it's you.

And given that you've already had exceptional time made available to you for family reasons, it's going to be hard to argue that you should get Xmas off because "Family". Especially if you didn't book Xmas off months in advance.

So arguing it based on any pseudo-legal basis is not going to fly. Time and a third is awful compensation for Xmas, but they don't really have to compensate you extra anyway. Bonus pay for standing in as supervisor for a short period is also not a requirement.

You need to attack this from a practical point of view;

- Are there any colleagues who don't do Xmas or don't care about Xmas (there's always at least one), who would take the shift for you?

- Explain that you have no physical way of getting to work on Xmas Day and ask them to arrange a taxi for you to & from home. This is typical in most companies for Xmas day, and it's not a big expense for them.

- Assuming you're going to be stuck working Xmas, get your Mum to come up and stay with you, so at least you can do Xmas together, even if you do have to work. You don't have to go to her house.

Outside of that your only real option is to press the nuclear button, forwarn them that you won't be in work for 2/3 days, and just deal with the consequences when you come back.

AlmightyCushion

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/leave_and_holidays/public_holidays_in_ireland.html

From the link:

You may ask your employer at least 21 days before a public holiday, which of the alternatives will apply. If your employer does not respond at least 14 days before the public holiday, you are entitled to take the actual public holiday as a paid day off.

You asked what was happening with working over Christmas more than 21 days before the public holiday and they replied to you today, less than 14 days before the public holiday. That, in my eyes, means you are entitled to have the time off. Pointing this out to your employer might not make you very popular with them however.

Sonics2k

cgcsb wrote: »

Sounds illegal

It is absolutely not illegal to have someone work on Christmas day.

The vast majority of call centres for example will open as normal on Christmas day, they just might be a bit more generous with PTO.

c6ysaphjvqw41k

IrishGirl18 wrote: »

I think its time and a third, im not too sure.


Its a little bix toxic to be honest but I need this job

They have to pay you double time, or give you a day back. Not sure if they are giving you time and a third and a day back. If so they are giving you a little extra. If not they need to either make it double or give you the day back. Same for Stephens Day and all bank holidays. My sister always used to have to work Christmas Day and she isn't emergency services. She was a petrol station manager and certain ones had to be open on xmas day to supply emergency vehicles. She did it for a few years then moved on.

IrishGirl18

I actually applied for Christmas off back in January but I didnt know old emails automatically delete after three months so I could not prove it but I just accepted that

ratracer

IrishGirl18 wrote: »

I work in Security, the site im on has to be manned 24/7.
Ive already used all my holidays plus a few unpaid days & a couple days of force Majeure leave, I pretty much have nothing left to take off and thats what their saying

It doesn’t seem like the employer is being unreasonable here. You’ve had all the time off you are legally entitled to. The short notice is a pain, but when/ how far in advance does your normal roster be given to you?
Can anyone else that works with you swap with you for the day?
It’s sucks, but that’s the nature of the job you are in.
Seems your options are 1) Quit, 2) call in sick, although you’ve tried so hard to get off this will be seen for what it is and possibly lead to disciplinary action.,

Cushie Butterfield

mikekerry wrote: »

"Consider bringing her to stay with you in Dublin for the Christmas period"
what ! she is working xmas, day, do you expect her mother to come up to Dublin for the day out of the family home and wait in an apartment or house until she comes home.
seriously.

Yes, seriously, although I didn’t suggest just for the day.
It may be the family home but considering there’ll be no family in it she’d be alone in it otherwise. OP will only be gone 8am to 5pm, at least she could spend the evenings with her only family.

It’s really not that outrageous a suggestion, considering she’d be alone otherwise.

washman3

Surely a workmate can work a swap with you considering your situation.
Used to do it all the time in a previous place where I worked.

IrishGirl18

washman3 wrote: »

Surely a workmate can work a swap with you considering your situation.
Used to do it all the time in a previous place where I worked.

Theres only Three per team per building and they already has it booked off

seamus

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

You asked what was happening with working over Christmas more than 21 days before the public holiday and they replied to you today, less than 14 days before the public holiday. That, in my eyes, means you are entitled to have the time off. Pointing this out to your employer might not make you very popular with them however.

Yeah, but....

IrishGirl18 wrote: »

I actually applied for Christmas off back in January but I didnt know old emails automatically delete after three months so I could not prove it but I just accepted that

So the OP knew what the story was with Xmas, all year.

It's also worth noting OP, that just because you applied for Xmas off, doesn't entitle you to get it. So having sent the email is less important than whether they replied and said you'd been granted Xmas off. If they replied at the time and said no, then there's not much you can do.

I really think finding a workmate to swop is your best option. It's very late in the day, but there may be someone who already knows that they're going to spend the day watching TV and feeling uncomfortable and might prefer to earn some money instead.

Mrs OBumble

Anastasia Few Styrofoam wrote: »

They have to pay you double time, or give you a day back.

Note the OR in that statement: effectively you just get the paid day at some other time.

OP surely your mother has a friend or neighbour at home who they could spend some time with on the day? Yes it sucks - but you work in a 24x7 industry so it shouldn't be a surprise. Especially if you know you have no leave left.

lawred2

IrishGirl18 wrote: »

I think its time and a third, im not too sure.


Its a little bix toxic to be honest but I need this job

and a third

f**k that

is that even legal?

JMNolan

IrishGirl18 wrote: »

I work in Security, the site im on has to be manned 24/7.
Ive already used all my holidays plus a few unpaid days & a couple days of force Majeure leave, I pretty much have nothing left to take off and thats what their saying

Geez, not sure what you can do to be honest. I worked security for years and someone has to work Christmas... Tough situation, call in sick perhaps? This won't help you in the long run but you'll be off Christmas day.

SusieBlue

While I sympathise with your situation, if you call in sick one of your colleagues who has booked the day off will be called in to cover you.

As this will be unexpected & unaccounted for, it will upend all their plans and potentially ruin their Christmas. Imagine getting that phone call Christmas day and how gutted you'd be if that happened you.

Try to resolve it before it comes to that if possible. I do strongly sympathise with your issue but I have to agree that your employers have been more than reasonable with their efforts to accommodate you over the course of the year, and I don't think they are being unreasonable by expecting you to work.

AlmightyCushion

seamus wrote: »

Yeah, but....

So the OP knew what the story was with Xmas, all year.

It's also worth noting OP, that just because you applied for Xmas off, doesn't entitle you to get it. So having sent the email is less important than whether they replied and said you'd been granted Xmas off. If they replied at the time and said no, then there's not much you can do.

I really think finding a workmate to swop is your best option. It's very late in the day, but there may be someone who already knows that they're going to spend the day watching TV and feeling uncomfortable and might prefer to earn some money instead.

The OP did not know. I'm assuming some people have the days off so OP didn't know they would be working those days. They asked what is happening and the employer only replied today which is less that 14 days before the public holiday. Going by what is in the link I posted above, after the OP asked (whether that was in January or November) and the employer did not reply until today, so that would entitle them to the days off as a paid day off.

bucketybuck

You work in a 24/7 industry, on a small team and you are scheduled to work christmas day. You have already used up all your holidays and extra time off has already been accommodated by the employer over the last few months.

You don't want to work christmas day because your mum will be on her own and it will be difficult for you to get to work.

Those are the facts here, and based on those facts I suspect most people would have a little sympathy for the employer, they need to operate their business after all.

Does the fact that your mum is sick change everything? Does it give you more right to christmas day off than your colleagues?

SortingYouOut

Quit and get a new job.

You have one mother who won't be around forever and you don't know how things will go. You'll be able to get another job in this climate.

SusieBlue

bucketybuck wrote: »

Does the fact that your mum is sick change everything? Does it give you more right to christmas day off than your colleagues?

Excellent point. The colleague who will be called in to cover you if you pull a sicky may have their own family issues going on at the moment.
They could also really need the day to look after their families.

shanno66

Just tell whatever contracts manager you deal with from g4s that if they roster you in christmas day you will not be there.

Theres really not much they can do and all the other big companys are screaming out for workers at the moment.

The security industry is the worse for stuff like this and you really have to stand your ground. Theres too much work out there to be taking this crap from them.

Stop asking them and start telling them you are not available to work those days.

Best of luck

elderberry

lawred2 wrote: »

and a third

f**k that

is that even legal?

No it's not, should be double pay.

barney 20v

exactly- you only have one mother! call in sick and don't stress over it!

Elmo

IrishGirl18 wrote: »

I actually applied for Christmas off back in January but I didnt know old emails automatically delete after three months so I could not prove it but I just accepted that

That is strange, a retention policy of only 3 months. Have you asked IT can you get a copy?

seamus

elderberry wrote: »

No it's not, should be double pay.

Incorrect.

The entitlement for public holidays is a paid day off in lieu or to be paid for the day (on top of the hours you've worked).

The latter is not actually double pay - you get paid based on your average hours over the last 8 (?) weeks. So if you do 12 hours on Xmas day, but your average day is 8 hours, then you will be paid 20 hours, not 24.

Or you'll be paid 12 hours and given another paid day off.

In this case the OP is being paid 1.33 per hour, and presumably getting a day in lieu as well. Which is crap; the only time I ever worked Xmas day I got triple time plus a €200 bonus; but it's not illegal.

_Brian

IrishGirl18 wrote: »

Theres only Three per team per building and they already has it booked off

When had they booked it off ???

Elmo

Really feel the pay is a non-issue, even if the OP was getting pay x10 their normal wage they'd not want to work for clear reasons as outlined.

shanno66

Its pretty standard to be paid 3x plus the 8 hour holiday pay for working xmas day.I have worked a few of them for different security companys and always recieved 42 hours for the 12 hour shift.

Its unfortunate that you work for one of the many companies in the industry who couldnt give a **** about there staff.

You would mad to work it for the rate they are offering

ectoraige

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

The OP did not know. I'm assuming some people have the days off so OP didn't know they would be working those days. They asked what is happening and the employer only replied today which is less that 14 days before the public holiday. Going by what is in the link I posted above, after the OP asked (whether that was in January or November) and the employer did not reply until today, so that would entitle them to the days off as a paid day off.

I think that extract you link to deals with the workplace telling you which of the four possible arrangements will be applied by the employer. If they don't tell you, then the default is a day off. However, if her contract contains specifics of how they deal with bank holidays, then I think the default wouldn't apply.

kevincaomhin

Hi Op,




I wonder would you consider the Force Majeure Option.


See below; It would seem that on a sympatheic reading you meet the criteria. It is taken from = > http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/leave_and_holidays/types_of_leave_from_work.html



I understand that it may cause difficulty for another member of staff but it may not and your employer may decide not to bring anyone else in.


All the best,

Kevin




Force majeure leave

If you have a family crisis the Parental Leave Acts 1998 and 2006 give an employee a limited right to leave from work. This is known as force majeure leave. It arises where, for urgent family reasons, the immediate presence of the employee is indispensable owing to an injury or illness of a close family member.
Force majeure leave does not give any entitlement to leave following the death of a close family member.
A close family member is defined as one of the following:

• A child or adopted child of the employee
• The husband, wife or partner of the employee
• Parent or grandparent of the employee
• Brother or sister of the employee
• Person to whom the employee has a duty of care (that is, he/she is acting in loco parentis)
• A person in a relationship of domestic dependency with the employee
• Persons of any other class (if any) as may be prescribed

The maximum amount of leave is 3 days in any 12-month period or 5 days in a 36-month period. You are entitled to be paid while you are on force majeure leave - see 'How to apply' below for more details. Your employer may grant you further leave.
You are protected against unfair dismissal for taking force majeure leave or proposing to take it.

Dial Hard

She's already used her force majeure entitlement.

IrishGirl18

kevincaomhin wrote: »

Hi Op,




I wonder would you consider the Force Majeure Option.


See below; It would seem that on a sympatheic reading you meet the criteria. It is taken from = > http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/leave_and_holidays/types_of_leave_from_work.html



I understand that it may cause difficulty for another member of staff but it may not and your employer may decide not to bring anyone else in.


All the best,

Kevin




Force majeure leave

If you have a family crisis the Parental Leave Acts 1998 and 2006 give an employee a limited right to leave from work. This is known as force majeure leave. It arises where, for urgent family reasons, the immediate presence of the employee is indispensable owing to an injury or illness of a close family member.
Force majeure leave does not give any entitlement to leave following the death of a close family member.
A close family member is defined as one of the following:

• A child or adopted child of the employee
• The husband, wife or partner of the employee
• Parent or grandparent of the employee
• Brother or sister of the employee
• Person to whom the employee has a duty of care (that is, he/she is acting in loco parentis)
• A person in a relationship of domestic dependency with the employee
• Persons of any other class (if any) as may be prescribed

The maximum amount of leave is 3 days in any 12-month period or 5 days in a 36-month period. You are entitled to be paid while you are on force majeure leave - see 'How to apply' below for more details. Your employer may grant you further leave.
You are protected against unfair dismissal for taking force majeure leave or proposing to take it.

Thank you, just so I understand correctly, I have already taken three days of force majeure leave in the last three months, does this mean I am entitled to another two ?

Dial Hard

IrishGirl18 wrote: »

Thank you, just so I understand correctly, I have already taken three days of force majeure leave in the last three months, does this mean I am entitled to another two ?

No, you've taken 3 in a 12-month period, you're not entitled to any more.

seamus

Also, "for urgent family reasons, the immediate presence of the employee is indispensable".

"It's Christmas" doesn't count. Her mother can survive without her.

Companies are often very loose on allowing force majeure leave, but in the strictest sense of the law it's really only supposed to be for circumstances where a family member is in serious sh1t and you need to get to then straight away.

qxtasybe1nwfh2

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

The OP did not know. I'm assuming some people have the days off so OP didn't know they would be working those days. They asked what is happening and the employer only replied today which is less that 14 days before the public holiday. Going by what is in the link I posted above, after the OP asked (whether that was in January or November) and the employer did not reply until today, so that would entitle them to the days off as a paid day off.

I'm guessing it would have been taken that she was rostered in unless she got a holiday and not assuming she was off because Mon to Fri are her usual hours.

Iv worked for 2 different security companies over the years, and it was always taken as if you were rostered in, that was it until something was organised to get you off, same with bank Holidays. If you were lucky, some young student would be happy to swap! Also in both, because they were 24/7, Mon to Fri day shift would be the best one going, no weekends for the year unlike someone on a rolling shift. So unfortunately that also comes with cons of Bank Holidays, possibly Christmas too.

It's unfortunate but someone has to work, everyone has their own reasons that are important to them. Every single year, there's arguments from Jan almost as to who is working, but years are mostly alternated, also if you are working Christmas eve/day,you can be off for Stephan day and the next. The companies have always tried their best but you can't please everyone unfortunately.

We get triple time and a days holiday so that softens the blow massively 😅

Elmo

seamus wrote: »

Also, "for urgent family reasons, the immediate presence of the employee is indispensable".

"It's Christmas" doesn't count. Her mother can survive without her.

Companies are often very loose on allowing force majeure leave, but in the strictest sense of the law it's really only supposed to be for circumstances where a family member is in serious sh1t and you need to get to then straight away.

The OP's Mam was diagnosed with cancer, I don't know if the mother has the all clear, and I hope she has, but I can definitely side with the OP on this. The employer could possibly do without the OP for the week of Christmas, let the OP take unpaid leave at the very least.

I hate to say this and I would never do this but call in sick and get a doctors note.

SusieBlue

Elmo wrote: »

The OP's Mam was diagnosed with cancer, I don't know if the mother has the all clear, and I hope she has, but I can definitely side with the OP on this. The employer could possibly do without the OP for the week of Christmas, let the OP take unpaid leave at the very least.

I hate to say this and I would never do this but call in sick and get a doctors note.

Not very considerate of his/her fellow colleagues who may have their own family dramas going on, who will be called in on their day off on Christmas Day to cover the shift.
Very selfish imo.

I have been the person who was called in, and I didn't appreciate it one bit.

John Hutton

Call in sick OP.

Elmo

SusieBlue wrote: »

Not very considerate of his/her fellow colleagues who may have their own family dramas going on, who will be called in on their day off on Christmas Day to cover the shift.
Very selfish imo.

I have been the person who was called in, and I didn't appreciate it one bit.

If you have family reason for not working, you should plan for this, and that includes on call work, because that would be very in considerate for both the work place and colleagues who end up in an emergency and can't get to work.

If your not on call, don't answer your phone for work on your days off. Simple.

As I said I wouldn't do this, but I don't see any other option for the OP. The nuclear option is to quit, not very considerate at all.

sbsquarepants

You've said yourself OP the place is toxic - you need to get out.

Go to a doctor - get a sick note, take the whole of Christmas off and fúck them - they'll magically find cover when they need too.

They'll know you're lying of course, but they can't do anything about it.

It won't be too pleasant when you go back, but just suck it up and stay there until you find a new job - if you put your mind to it, it won't take you too long.

Life's too short to put up with shít like that!

seamus

Elmo wrote: »

The OP's Mam was diagnosed with cancer, I don't know if the mother has the all clear, and I hope she has, but I can definitely side with the OP on this.

I absolutely side with the OP on this. In her shoes I'd be inclined to just tell them I won't be in and deal with the consequences.

But the law is not on her side. There's no legal loophole she can use here to get her out of work next week.

bucketybuck

Elmo wrote: »

As I said I wouldn't do this, but I don't see any other option for the OP.

Go to work?