Yellow vest movement ireland

Bannasidhe

Arthur Daley wrote: »

Ok, so to deal with the Vulture fund. It is unfortunate that the first case has an accident, but do they now expect that the Government should instruct the vulture fund to write off their mortgage? If they need a house and can only pay a minimal amount (the interest portion) they are best suited to a council house. If they are living in a house over and above a council house, the house should be sold so that the mortgage can be recovered, and they should be allocated a council house. This does not require a new build. The larger private dwelling is made available in the market and so this is recycling existing housing stock.

In the second scenario again it is unfortunate, but what about some consequences for the anti social behaviour by the landlord. Something revenue should be unleashed on, I accept.
After that the owner of the property gets to decide what they do with the property, subject to adequate notice periods. The tenant doesn't get to call the shots on whether the property is sold or not. If they are a good tenant, and paying up all the time, it is hard to see why it is in the vulture funds interests to micro manage and upset the status quo.

What council houses?

We sold those off.

What is unfortunate about Vulture funds is the following:

AN ANALYSIS OF the company filings of 15 Irish subsidiaries of global vulture funds has found that they pay just €250 a year in tax.

This is despite the companies having in their control €10.3 billion worth of loans and debt in Ireland.

In total, the 15 companies have paid just €8,000 in tax.

It is estimated that the loss to the Irish Exchequer is up to €500 million in just two years

https://www.thejournal.ie/vulture-funds-2-3176030-Jan2017/

An Irish government is allowing the subsidiaries of multinational investment firms (many of whom were paid vast sums of money to ensure Irish financial institutions were not up to anything dodgy and/or reckless) to buy the mortgages of Irish homes at knockdown prices and can bully and intimidate without sanction

The code (Code of Conduct on Mortgage Arrears) which was established during the recession in 2009 to provide statutory safeguards for “vulnerable, financially distressed borrowers” in arrears, states all cases must be handled sympathetically and positively by the lender, with the objective at all times of assisting the borrower to meet his or her mortgage obligations.

It also states that lenders are required to ensure that communications are “proportionate and not excessive, taking into account borrowers’ circumstances, and that communications are not aggressive, intimidating or harassing”.

However, despite countless reports of customers being put under pressure by banks and vulture funds by letter, phone and even house visits, the Central Bank confirmed to TheJournal.ie that no lender or credit firm has ever been punished under the code of conduct.

In a statement, the bank said a “themed inspection” of lenders’ compliance in 2015 inspected seven lenders and identified a number of key concerns. “Formal supervisory requirements” were imposed and timelines given to banks and lenders to sort out the problems – but no sanctions.

The Central Bank said no sanctions have been put in place since the code’s commencement in 2009.

https://www.thejournal.ie/vulture-funds-banks-code-of-conduct-4342402-Nov2018/

And flip those properties for a large tax-free profit.

You might be alright with that.

I'm not.

I think gifting 500 million euro over a two year period is a crime against the tax payers of Ireland.

Bannasidhe

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Who do you recommend to vote for?

That is a personal choice each voter has to make.
But they need to recognise that voting for the same parties means you get the same results.
If they are happy to do that then so be it.
But don't be surprised when nothing changes.

hmmm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

People are sick of paying taxes and getting nothing in return. Agreed.
But some one is getting the money.
It ain't the workers.

This is where the money is going:
https://whereyourmoneygoes.gov.ie/en/

The conspiracy theories are really boring. I know, and everyone else knows, that the first act of a hard-left or SF government will be to increase taxes, because there is no magic money tree to pay for thousands of free houses or pumping up the dole.

Bannasidhe

PeadarCo wrote: »

That's democracy if you think you can do better stand for election. If you don't you have to deal with what electorate vote for. One person one vote. If you are not what happy get out join/set up your own party and see if you can persuade people that you or people whom you support can do a better job.

OR I could do my job and expect those elected to represent the people and look after their interests do their job.

And just like I should be taken to task if I don't do my job by my employers I have the right - as one of their employers - to take them to task if I don't think they are doing their job.

EdgeCase

One interesting general trend has been the decline of the combined FF ana FG vote. It's been slowly sinking since the 1970s and more rapidly in recent years.

Arthur Daley

Bannasidhe wrote: »

And flip those properties for a large tax-free profit.

You might be alright with that.

I'm not.

I think gifting 500 million euro over a two year period is a crime against the tax payers of Ireland.

I never said I was for tax avoidance by vulture funds. It is for Varadkar or Pascal the Rascal to answer for that, as it was Noonan of their party who set this arrangement up. People can vote FG out of power for their contempt for the taxpayers of Ireland


It still doesn't entitle people to free houses over and above what was called council house/local authority standards of housing. And to reiterate on that one - moving people out of properties they are not able to pay for into some more humble gaff is not making people homeless, it is recycling property to people who can/will pay for it.

Bannasidhe

hmmm wrote: »

This is where the money is going:
https://whereyourmoneygoes.gov.ie/en/

The conspiracy theories are really boring. I know, and everyone else knows, that the first act of a hard-left or SF government will be to increase taxes, because there is no magic money tree to pay for thousands of free houses or pumping up the dole.

What conspiracy theories? Do you mean the demonstrable fact that vulture funds are not being sanctioned when they break the rules and are allowed to avoid paying taxes on huge profits??

Do you know what is in the area of theory? Claiming to know what a left wing govt would do when we have never actually had one.


We will never have a hard-left govt in Ireland so you can step away from that theory.
SF - maybe might get into government. But they ain't hard left. They are at best economically leftish of centre and a wee bit rightish of centre on social issues.

We could have had 250 million a year for housing and SW but we sold the magic money tree to Goldman Sachs. :pac:

Bannasidhe

Arthur Daley wrote: »

I never said I was for tax avoidance by vulture funds. It is for Varadkar or Pascal the Rascal to answer for that, as it was Noonan of their party who set this arrangement up. People can vote FG out of power for their contempt for the taxpayers of Ireland


It still doesn't entitle people to free houses over and above what was called council house/local authority standards of housing. And to reiterate on that one - moving people out of properties they are not able to pay for into some more humble gaff is not making people homeless, it is recycling property to people who can/will pay for it.

So, you admit an Irish government screwed us by letting vulture funds dodge tax? Did you not say earlier that there was nothing governments could do about vulture funds?

They could tax them!

Who is calling for free houses? I certainly never did.
I called for affordable housing.
I called for secure tenancies.

Council housing isn't free btw. The rent paid is calculated according to income.

LAST YEAR, SOCIAL housing tenants paid almost €351 million to local authorities in rent.

According to Mary Hayes, administrative officer for Dublin City Council housing allocations, getting a local authority home is “not as easy as people think”.

And she said no one is simply handed a ‘free house’.

There is a strict set of criteria that must be met before a person can get on the (often years-long) waiting list in their area

https://www.thejournal.ie/social-housing-rents-4399149-Dec2018/

Wheeliebin30

Bannasidhe wrote: »

That is a personal choice each voter has to make.
But they need to recognise that voting for the same parties means you get the same results.
If they are happy to do that then so be it.
But don't be surprised when nothing changes.

Right so you have no suggestions for a better alternative yet criticize people who vote for FF or FG.

Makes loads of sense.

Arthur Daley

Bannasidhe wrote: »

So, you admit an Irish government screwed us by letting vulture funds dodge tax? Did you not say earlier that there was nothing governments could do about vulture funds?

They could tax them!

So maybe we could tease out a 40 point plan for Irish Gillet Jaunes, by process of elimination.


No. 1 Tax the Profits of Vulture Funds

The Rape of Lucretia

Bannasidhe wrote: »

That is a personal choice each voter has to make.
But they need to recognise that voting for the same parties means you get the same results.
If they are happy to do that then so be it.
But don't be surprised when nothing changes.

People dont want change in that sense. There is a view among a minority that the whole population wants change but brainlessly keep voting for the same parties rather than voting for different ones who would enact change.
But this is not the case.
People dont want different politics. FF, FG, and assorted collections at different times of near relations, perfectly reflect the politics of a comfortable majority of the the Irish electorate.
This is why they keep voting for them.

That matters are not managed better is not down to politics, or the parties in charge, but to the fundamental capability of the Irish to govern themselves and to pay the price necessary for change. And they are poor at this, preferring short term gain, or to 'worry about tomorrow tomorrow but let have some tax cuts today anyway' to fundamental reform and long term development.

PeadarCo

Bannasidhe wrote:

And just like I should be taken to task if I don't do my job by my employers I have the right - as one of their employers - to take them to task if I don't think they are doing their job.

They are they are what Elections for. The current set of TDs, councillors and MEPs are what the electorate has decided. In the next set of elections they will face the music. If someone/party is regularly voted back in obviously the people who voted for them think they are doing a good job or at least capable of doing a better job than the alternative options. However you don't seem to be happy with the results. If you think you can do better stand for election.

The Rape of Lucretia

Bannasidhe wrote: »

SF - maybe might get into government. But they ain't hard left. They are at best economically leftish of centre and a wee bit rightish of centre on social issues.

SF arent anything - they are without any political leaning, rather, a political organisation in search of a role post peace in the north, and handed an opportunity to position themselves as leftish on the ground vacated by Labour. But the thrashing of labour coming fundamentally from a lack of any true left support in Ireland. They might, like, labour, brand themselves and speak the argot of the left. But really are middle, like 98% of Irish politics, since 98% of Ireland is middle.
There is no appetite, beyond that from the perpetual stirers and cranks, for any protest - the current govt fully represents the political allegiance of the Irish people and gives them what they want.

The Rape of Lucretia

PeadarCo wrote: »

They are they are what Elections for. The current set of TDs, councillors and MEPs are what the electorate has decided. In the next set of elections they will face the music. If someone/party is regularly voted back in obviously the people who voted for them think they are doing a good job or at least capable of doing a better job than the alternative options. However you don't seem to be happy with the results. If you think you can do better stand for election.

Ireland always votes for the same politics. It only changes the personnel a little, in a game of X-factor or I'm a Celeb. There has been no desire for change in Irish politics (the old FF/FG standoff having been a partition issue that is now obsolete) since the founding of the state.
The people have to cause to protest. Protest happens where there are divergent political views, and those not in power try to temper or divert the policies of their opponents when the opponents are in power. For a hundred years, the Irish have had a government implementing politics that effectively all agreed with.

hmmm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

We could have had 250 million a year for housing and SW but we sold the magic money tree to Goldman Sachs. :pac:

I've no idea what conspiracy theory generates 250 million to GS, but 250 million is a drop in the bucket. The government spends nearly 80 billion a year.

Council housing isn't free btw.

Oh god, that again.

Bannasidhe

PeadarCo wrote: »

They are they are what Elections for. The current set of TDs, councillors and MEPs are what the electorate has decided. In the next set of elections they will face the music. If someone/party is regularly voted back in obviously the people who voted for them think they are doing a good job or at least capable of doing a better job than the alternative options. However you don't seem to be happy with the results. If you think you can do better stand for election.

Technically they, in the main, are the candidates selected by the parties from whom the electors get to choose. The parties chose from among the party faithful.
Not quite the choice your post would suggest.

Bannasidhe

hmmm wrote: »

I've no idea what conspiracy theory generates 250 million to GS, but 250 million is a drop in the bucket. The government spends nearly 80 billion a year.


Oh god, that again.

Well that's ok so. The government spends 80 billion a year so feck it, what does it matter if multinational vulture funds and assorted other multinationals don't pay drop in the bucket amounts of tax in the millions.

Sure in that case why chase tax defaulters - even going to the trouble of publishing their names? Sure what they get there wouldn't even make a ripple in the bucket.

Or going after the SW cheats AH loves to complain about? According to the DSP social welfare fraud totalled €38.4 million in 2017, down from €41 million in 2016. By your logic - given that this amounts to 420.6 million less than the vulture funds alone are allowed walk away without paying over the same time period - we should ignore that because bucket.

Why do Irish government chase individual citizens for relatively minor amounts but allow multinationals to avoid paying millions?

It is estimated that TV licence fee evasion amounts to 40 million a year. People get jail sentences for that.

Drop. In. The. Bucket.

To put this Vulture fund drop in the bucket in context.

In 2017 when vulture are estimated to have been allowed off the hook to the tune of a 250 million euro 'drop in the bucket' - the government's R&D budget for the Dept of Health was 48.7 million, for Climate Action and Environment (carbon tax anyone?) it was 19.6 million, while for Agriculture, Food and the Marine (I might be mistaken but I believe a lot of our exports some from this area..) it was 95.1 million. Total spend of 163.4 million.
https://dbei.gov.ie/en/Publications/Publication-files/The-R-D-Budget-2017-2018.pdf

These three alone could have been funded out of the 250 million vulture funds didn't pay and I'm sure we could have found somewhere to spend the remaining 80.6 million. Perhaps we could have reduced carbon tax and increased the budget for Climate Action and Environment at the same time :eek:

And yes, that again. That every single time some one repeats the B.S about "free houses".

Suckler

Bannasidhe wrote: »

It is estimated that TV licence fee evasion amounts to 40 million a year. People get jail sentences for that.

No they don't.

Bannasidhe

Suckler wrote: »

No they don't.

Yes they do.

The Irish Prison Service (IPS) confirmed that the number of those jailed for non-payment of fines in connection with the licence are not yet available for 2017 - the annual number is usually only a tiny fraction of the numbers of cases taken.

Also, it is expected that the numbers jailed for non-payment of fines connected to the TV will have dropped sharply in 2017 due to new legislation introduced aimed at reducing the numbers of those jailed for non-payment of fines.

The vast majority of those jailed in recent years spend only a few hours in prison.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/this-is-how-many-people-an-post-took-to-court-for-not-paying-their-tv-licence-last-year-829835.html

Note: I did not say how long they spent in jail, or how many are sentenced to jail. I said people are given jail sentences. This is a fact.

Topgear on Dave

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Technically they, in the main, are the candidates selected by the parties from whom the electors get to choose. The parties chose from among the party faithful.
Not quite the choice your post would suggest.

They are members of parties because it's better to work together to get someone elected.

The local elections are coming up and you can run yourself if you want to. It doesn't look to be massively onerous to get your name on the ballot.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/elections_and_referenda/local_elections/nomination_of_candidates_in_local_authority_elections.html

Put yourself up there before the people, go knocking on the doors and see what they say.

Stand independently.
Clearly you have all the answers.

Bannasidhe

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

They are members of parties because it's better to work together to get someone elected.

The local elections are coming up and you can run yourself if you want to. It doesn't look to be massively onerous to get your name on the ballot.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/elections_and_referenda/local_elections/nomination_of_candidates_in_local_authority_elections.html

Put yourself up there before the people, go knocking on the doors and see what they say.

Stand independently.
Clearly you have all the answers.

Why do people do this?

I never claimed to have all the answers but at least I am putting forward suggestions not spouting off about dole spongers or migration or people wanting free houses.

I am informing myself as every voter should. Should new information emerge I will change my conclusions based on that.

The response of "well you run so Mzzz Smarty Pants and see how you do" is frankly childish and a bit pathetic as it comes from a place that seems to believe voters shouldn't have an opinion or be free to fairly criticise what they see as government failures.

If you don't like how your car is repaired - become a mechanic and fix it yourself!
Don't like the way the teacher is doing their job of educating your kids - get thee a Hdip.
GP not up to much? You know the solution.

This whole "you run so" dismisses legitimate concerns and allows those well paid to do the job of representing the people to get off scot free.

Democracy does not mean well they were elected so shut up now and do as they say.

Topgear on Dave

But I'm not telling you to shut up now and do as they say.

I'm saying you too can put yourself up for election if you really want to put it up to them and change things.

rossie1977

It's not as bad here in the EU compared to the US where workers have been royally screwed since 1980

rossie1977

rossie1977 wrote: »

It's not as bad here in the EU compared to the US where workers have been royally screwed since 1980

The benefits of automation are clearly not being distributed amongst the remaining employees

Edgware

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

SF arent anything - they are without any political leaning, rather, a political organisation in search of a role post peace in the north, and handed an opportunity to position themselves as leftish on the ground vacated by Labour. But the thrashing of labour coming fundamentally from a lack of any true left support in Ireland. They might, like, labour, brand themselves and speak the argot of the left. But really are middle, like 98% of Irish politics, since 98% of Ireland is middle.
There is no appetite, beyond that from the perpetual stirers and cranks, for any protest - the current govt fully represents the political allegiance of the Irish people and gives them what they want.

SF are all over the place. They play the strong republican line in Tyrone Armagh etc, the left wing line in the working class areas in the cities and then the slightly left of centre vacated by Labour in middle class areas. If you dont stand for someting you dont stand for anything.

weldoninhio

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Yes they do.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/this-is-how-many-people-an-post-took-to-court-for-not-paying-their-tv-licence-last-year-829835.html

Note: I did not say how long they spent in jail, or how many are sentenced to jail. I said people are given jail sentences. This is a fact.

No they don't.

From your own link "jailed for non-payment of fines"

Bannasidhe

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

But I'm not telling you to shut up now and do as they say.

I'm saying you too can put yourself up for election if you really want to put it up to them and change things.

And I'm saying I shouldn't have to.
If I had wanted to go into politics I would have done so a long time ago. That doesn't mean I cannot call truth to power.

Every elector has the right, and the duty, call our representatives to task for not doing their job in the exact same was as if we fail to do our jobs we can be called to task by our employers.

It's part of our role as electors to hold those we elect to account. Not just at the ballot box - that's lazy - but every day. That's democracy.

Bannasidhe

weldoninhio wrote: »

No they don't.

From your own link "jailed for non-payment of fines"

Quibble quibble.

Up before the beak in the first place for not paying TV licence.

The Irish Prison Service (IPS) confirmed that the number of those jailed for non-payment of fines in connection with the licence are not yet available for 2017 - the annual number is usually only a tiny fraction of the numbers of cases taken.


Let's all quibble about whether people are jailed for not paying the TV licence or jailed for not paying the fine for not paying the TV licence and ignore the estimated 250 million a year drop in the bucket Vulture Funds avoid paying in tax shall we?

Shall I instead say An Post last year took court proceedings against 11,693 people for not paying their television licence of 160 euro a year (160 x 11,693 = 1, 870,880) - a licence fee legislated for by government while at the same time that very same government enabled 15 Irish subsidiaries of global vulture funds to pay just €250 each a year in tax.

Is that better?

Suckler

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Yes they do.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

This is a fact.

No. They don't. It isn't a fact. You own link proves that.
There needs are ramifications for non payment of fines (i.e. what their punishment is). Otherwise you're arguing that every offender jailed for non payment of fines received a jail sentence despite that being patently incorrect.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Is that better?

No.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Quibble quibble.

Being deliberately disingenuous about "Facts" to shoehorn it in to an argument and then throwing about the "Quibble quibble" remark is a leap SF would be proud of.

Bannasidhe

Suckler wrote: »

No. They don't. It isn't a fact. You own link proves that.
There needs are ramifications for non payment of fines (i.e. what their punishment is). Otherwise you're arguing that every offender jailed for non payment of fines received a jail sentence despite that being patently incorrect.


No.



Being deliberately disingenuous about "Facts" to shoehorn it in to an argument and then throwing about the "Quibble quibble" remark is a leap SF would be proud of.

*Utter silence about the vultures funds*