Yellow vest movement ireland

EdgeCase

The trolly issue is definitely not all right jack. We all end up there at some stage. Even if you've the best insurance cover you'll be dumped into the same mess if you've a major accident or incident.

That being said, my mum recently had a stroke (it was unfortunately fatal) but the treatment she got entirely on the public system was extremely good, prompt and high tech.

Likeiwse, I've an elderly relative with a very complex form of cancer and she's getting top notch and very well put together treatment again entirely on the public system.

There's a huge issue with A&E and it's being driven by lack of investment in primary care. A lot of the things that go to A&E here should be avoided entirely due to better GP intervention or should be deslth with at primary care level.

Most of our health issues here stem from poverty in the past. The health system was historically funded by large charities and the hospital sweep stakes which made resources available for hospitals and institutional type settings only. We had abysmally undeveloped primary care and that legacy seems to be locked in with the majority of GP care here being provided by small, self employed private operators and there seems to be no coordinated services really at all.

Ok there's a bit of an improvement with those primary care centres but there should be one of those in every suburb and town and they should have more advanced facilities to deal with basic issues.

Lots and lots of things here end up in A&E that would just not occur at all in a system where you had easy access to GP led care in the community.

You've also got people presenting to A&E with major problems that should have been picked up and treated by primary care and would be in most countries - those cases arrive in A&E as minor crises.

Not only that but I've experienced Irish GPs sending people to A&E for routine things. For example my aunt was sent to A&E for a non urgent X-ray which seems absolutely absurd even if she went off peak and was seen relatively quickly.

Have a read of Mary E. Daly's analysis of how we have a hospital system rather than a health system if you want to get a sense of how the current mess evolved.

http://historyhub.ie/the-curse-of-the-irish-hospitals-sweepstake

I think it should be on the compulsory reading list for every Irish politician and journalist covering health.

There's lots of good analysis around academic circles about why Ireland's health system is a permanent mess but nobody in politics seems to read this stuff or listen to any of the useful critiques.

Throwing more and more cash at a system that's fundementally flawed isn't going to fix it.

Franz Von Peppercorn

GPs are contractors in the NHS as well, albeit contractors to one employer. It seems to work better there.

It does seem that GPs are over educated for what they do these days.

They have offices called surgeries. I know from reading old literature that doctors used to do surgery in their offices, mostly minor stuff, but it was there. They’d do X-rays. And set a broken hand. That’s most people sorted.

EdgeCase

In most continental systems there are well kitted out and well staffed local health clinics with abilities to handle a lot of minor and not so minor things without having to go anywhere near a major hospital. There's also usually a lot more coordinated services where things like I'm going infusions of various medicines, regular blood tests and do on for on going hospital treatment can be carried out locally.

We did bits of this with primary care clinics but from what I can see many of those seem to have morphed into odd mixes that aren't more commercial stuff like fancy audiology clinics rather than focusing on GP care.

I know from what I've witnessed in Ireland you've people being asked to come in from big distances away to a major hospital for what amounts to someone taking a blood test that could easily have been couriered to a lab from a local centre or bringing people in for consultations that could have been done with their GP and a consultant on screen using simple telemedicine facilities.

A lot of bruises and bandages stuff should be dealt with locally. Going to an acute hospital with a cut or something is a total waste of resources but when the facilities aren't reliably available locally or are charged at premium rates people will obviously go to hospitals.

Grayson

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

GPs are contractors in the NHS as well, albeit contractors to one employer. It seems to work better there.

It does seem that GPs are over educated for what they do these days.

They have offices called surgeries. I know from reading old literature that doctors used to do surgery in their offices, mostly minor stuff, but it was there. They’d do X-rays. And set a broken hand. That’s most people sorted.

It seems like that for a lot of the stuff they do. You have a chest infection, they give a prescription for anti biotics. A lot of stuff is routine.
But they are effectively a triage system. They have to be able to diagnose a hell of a lot of stuff and either deal with it or route you to the right specialists if necessary.

If I remember correctly they have to do a year of psychiatry, a year of ob/gyn and a year with a GP to be qualified.

Grayson

EdgeCase wrote: »

In most continental systems there are well kitted out and well staffed local health clinics with abilities to handle a lot of minor and not so minor things without having to go anywhere near a major hospital. There's also usually a lot more coordinated services where things like I'm going infusions of various medicines, regular blood tests and do on for on going hospital treatment can be carried out locally.

We did bits of this with primary care clinics but from what I can see many of those seem to have morphed into odd mixes that aren't more commercial stuff like fancy audiology clinics rather than focusing on GP care.

I know from what I've witnessed in Ireland you've people being asked to come in from big distances away to a major hospital for what amounts to someone taking a blood test that could easily have been couriered to a lab from a local centre or bringing people in for consultations that could have been done with their GP and a consultant on screen using simple telemedicine facilities.

A lot of bruises and bandages stuff should be dealt with locally. Going to an acute hospital with a cut or something is a total waste of resources but when the facilities aren't reliably available locally or are charged at premium rates people will obviously go to hospitals.

My local GP does bloods every monday. They're shipped off to the hospital for tests then.

EdgeCase

I wouldn't say they're over educated, rather they're badly organised and under resourced and also treated with a degree of contempt / condescention by the hospital system which should be seeing them as an integral part of a health system.

I always get the impression GPs are seen just a simple referral service.

You never get the sense that Irish system is actually a system at all. It's just a bunch of hospitals and other services all kind of operating in their own bubbles.

But to get back to the thread :

Yes people should be annoyed but no, this isn't France. There are serious issues that need to be pushed hard in the next general election which could be as soon as mid to late 2019.

Bannasidhe

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

They actually ran hospitals well, and education (propaganda aside) not that badly. They haven’t been in charge of much for a generation. And I’m an atheist. From an atheist family actually.



Yes.



Indeed. Thatcherism may eventually be the thing that kills capitalism.



Insane alright. It seems to me that we need to get the public sector building again ie builders as employees. Obviously some sub contractors will be private.

Hospitals were clean - I'd give them that. As for well ....weeeellll...unless you were female and didn't want children - then you got the sharp end of the ethics stick. And that's the real issue - religious ideology shouldn't be allowed near healthcare.

Education - well, most of us can read goodly... even if we can't understand our own voting system or what a Constitution is...(not even presidental candidates seem to understand that)
TBH having worked at the coal face of 3rd level for many years I honestly don't think our education system is much good - those who can memorise and regurgitate excel at 2nd level but lack the ability to engage in any real critical analysis or outside the box thinking. It's heartbreaking. Seeing fine minds straight jacketed by a "learn it off" pedagogy.
That is one of my objections to RCC involvement in education (that and the State funded indoctrination) - religions don't do critical analysis. It also suits the State and the State really hasn't changed the pedagogy bar tinkering around the edges. Imagine if we had an electorate trained to critically analyse things :eek:

The irony that the cheerleader of free market capitalism may ultimately ne responsible for strangling capitalism is delicious.

Yes, we need directly built public housing with a full apprenticeship system in place. Not everyone involved in the building trade wants to be self-employed. Many would like the security of a weekly/monthly pay check and the fall back of being able to properly access S.W. should the need arise. Too many sub-contractors (and their apprentices) were thrown to the wolves in the last crash. Now we have a skills shortage.

EdgeCase

Were the hospitals clean?

There's been a growth of super bugs that's caused largely by antibiotic dependence and those becoming less and less effective. A dose of simple antibiotics in 1975 killed off most infections without any issue. The bugs evolved.

We've also got a massive expansion of treatments that leave people immunosuppressed or compromised in oncology. They work amazingly well and they may save your life but they're opening up a lot of side issues with hospital infections.

Also you've just got the fact that technology means very sick people survive and get over being very sick, but while they're being treated they are very vulnerable to infection. In the past they would have likely just died.

Hospital infections aren't simply down to lack of scrubbing. There's inappropriate buildings that are not designed to contain infection because they're from a bygone era when it wasn't a consideration and there there are lots of other issues too.

Unfortunately, superbugs are just going to become worse and worse as we enter an era where existing antibiotics stop working and in a scenario like that a lot of complex treatments and surgeries may well become impossible.

There's work going on on new antibiotics and things like bacteria phages (viruses that kill bacteria).

All I'm saying is in that case you could be well looking back at a golden age when bugs hadn't yet outsmarted simple antibiotics, rather than the nuns having been particularly brilliant at cleaning with Dettol.

Mad_maxx

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

GPs are contractors in the NHS as well, albeit contractors to one employer. It seems to work better there.

It does seem that GPs are over educated for what they do these days.

They have offices called surgeries. I know from reading old literature that doctors used to do surgery in their offices, mostly minor stuff, but it was there. They’d do X-rays. And set a broken hand. That’s most people sorted.

GP, s are unwilling to invest in their clinics, they really do nothing bar passing patients on to hospital and treating minor ailments, in many countries you can have an xray in your local GP clinic thus reducing the load in hospital

gandalf

Bear in mind as well hospitals are designed to be 70% occupied so a proper deep cleaning schedule can be adhered to. Given they are 90% occupied these days they can't do a deep clean like they used to.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Hospitals were clean - I'd give them that. As for well ....weeeellll...unless you were female and didn't want children - then you got the sharp end of the ethics stick. And that's the real issue - religious ideology shouldn't be allowed near healthcare.

Education - well, most of us can read goodly... even if we can't understand our own voting system or what a Constitution is...(not even presidental candidates seem to understand that)
TBH having worked at the coal face of 3rd level for many years I honestly don't think our education system is much good - those who can memorise and regurgitate excel at 2nd level but lack the ability to engage in any real critical analysis or outside the box thinking. It's heartbreaking. Seeing fine minds straight jacketed by a "learn it off" pedagogy.
That is one of my objections to RCC involvement in education (that and the State funded indoctrination) - religions don't do critical analysis. It also suits the State and the State really hasn't changed the pedagogy bar tinkering around the edges. Imagine if we had an electorate trained to critically analyse things :eek:

That’s not my experience of secondary school from the 80s to the mid 90s. Obviously there is some rote (try doing biology without it) but plenty of time to express opinions on civics, or history classes or debates. As for “critical thinking” in universities that’s often just responding with a different set of expected answers. There was no religion. That class was another civics class.

The irony that the cheerleader of free market capitalism may ultimately ne responsible for strangling capitalism is delicious.

Well there’s a potential baby and bath water here. A better system may not be viable.

Yes, we need directly built public housing with a full apprenticeship system in place. Not everyone involved in the building trade wants to be self-employed. Many would like the security of a weekly/monthly pay check and the fall back of being able to properly access S.W. should the need arise. Too many sub-contractors (and their apprentices) were thrown to the wolves in the last crash. Now we have a skills shortage.

Yes. And if we pay them wages without the middle man it might save money. There’s a lot of cream being creamed throughout the sub contracting system.

Bannasidhe

EdgeCase wrote: »

In most continental systems there are well kitted out and well staffed local health clinics with abilities to handle a lot of minor and not so minor things without having to go anywhere near a major hospital. There's also usually a lot more coordinated services where things like I'm going infusions of various medicines, regular blood tests and do on for on going hospital treatment can be carried out locally.

We did bits of this with primary care clinics but from what I can see many of those seem to have morphed into odd mixes that aren't more commercial stuff like fancy audiology clinics rather than focusing on GP care.

I know from what I've witnessed in Ireland you've people being asked to come in from big distances away to a major hospital for what amounts to someone taking a blood test that could easily have been couriered to a lab from a local centre or bringing people in for consultations that could have been done with their GP and a consultant on screen using simple telemedicine facilities.

A lot of bruises and bandages stuff should be dealt with locally. Going to an acute hospital with a cut or something is a total waste of resources but when the facilities aren't reliably available locally or are charged at premium rates people will obviously go to hospitals.

During a stint living in Brisbane I developed kidney stones. Big ouch. As I had a permanent visa I could avail of medicare so off I went to the local G.P (for free), she referred me for various tests (bloods, big machines that went beep - the works). I groaned thinking that's a day on a polypropylene chair in a waiting room so...
Not a bit of it. About 100 yards away was a neighbourhood facility that did all of that. For free. You name it they tested/scanned it. While I was being tested/scanned for one thing they were compiling the results of the other things. 2 hours later I was put in a taxi with all my results (told don't worry if I lost them as they had been sent electronically). I did have to pay for the taxi :P and sent to the local hospital where they were expecting me.

I have to say I was so flabbergasted by this level of joined up thinking it took my mind nearly off the pain.

Same deal with getting my driving licence in Sydney. I had to do a theory test, x amount of lessons (I think it was 3 as I had a full Irish) and a driving test. Groan...
Nope.
One stop shop in my local shopping centre. All the Boroughs had one.
Popped in and did my theory test there and then. They gave me a list of approved driving instructors, so I phoned and booked lessons, and applied to do the test in 5 days. Within a week I had a full drivers licence and a car registered in my name that had 3rd party insurance as part of the rego fee.
Moved to Brisbane so had to get a QLD licence and reg plates. Again - a one stop shop. All done in less than 2 hours including new plates on car.

It seems here we need to jump through hoops (and queue) for everything when with a little bit of joined up thinking...

Bannasidhe

EdgeCase wrote: »

Were the hospitals clean?

There's been a growth of super bugs that's caused largely by antibiotic dependence and those becoming less and less effective. A dose of simple antibiotics in 1975 killed off most infections without any issue. The bugs evolved.

We've also got a massive expansion of treatments that leave people immunosuppressed or compromised in oncology. They work amazingly well and they may save your life but they're opening up a lot of side issues with hospital infections.

Also you've just got the fact that technology means very sick people survive and get over being very sick, but while they're being treated they are very vulnerable to infection. In the past they would have likely just died.

Hospital infections aren't simply down to lack of scrubbing. There's inappropriate buildings that are not designed to contain infection because they're from a bygone era when it wasn't a consideration and there there are lots of other issues too.

Unfortunately, superbugs are just going to become worse and worse as we enter an era where existing antibiotics stop working and in a scenario like that a lot of complex treatments and surgeries may well become impossible.

There's work going on on new antibiotics and things like bacteria phages (viruses that kill bacteria).

All I'm saying is in that case you could be well looking back at a golden age when bugs hadn't yet outsmarted simple antibiotics, rather than the nuns having been particularly brilliant at cleaning with Dettol.

Good point well made.

EdgeCase

I think in university it varies enormously. I had a fantastic experience in UCC in a particular department with massive leeway for thinking outside the box and thinking very critically was actively encouraged. We debated absolutely everything and lectures were totally interactive. It was a great experience.

Then a masters elsewhere in another subject area and it was abysmally all about rote learning. I felt like they were just running a sausage factory.

It's very much about the personalities and experience of the people delivering the programmes and the culture in the institution. I don't think you can generalise about Irish 3rd level or even about individual universities as culture changes enormously from department to department and even depending who leads those departments.

I wonder about the way we measure performance at 3rd level though. I think we have a tendency to lean towards the tick box easy to measure stuff.

I just don't think you can make sweeping statements about a system that isn't at all standardised. Some of its good some of it isn't.

Bannasidhe

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

That’s not my experience of secondary school from the 80s to the mid 90s. Obviously there is some rote (try doing biology without it) but plenty of time to express opinions on civics, or history classes or debates. As for “critical thinking” in universities that’s often just responding with a different set of expected answers. There was no religion. That class was another civics class.

I am not saying rote learning doesn't have it's place (as my poor son found out when I produced a book of times tables ) but too often it is the go to pedagogy.

I taught in an area that requires critical analysis to get top marks. Yes, a pass was possible by regurgitating but a first required in-depth research, analysis, and presentation.
The constraints of the lecture system (plus workload) meant lecturers would give broad outlines of themes which students should then (using the provided reading list plus any nuggets they could unearth ) investigate themselves. There generally was no right or wrong answer in the classical sense (there were, of course, incorrect "facts")- there was a well argued and supported point or not.

You could see the look of panic in students eyes as they realised they were not going to be told read this one book and tell me what it says but were instead required to read many books, decide what was relevant to the question ( a skill in itself), determine if, based on their reading, they agreed with the analysis's they read - and if not why not, before writing it all down in a way that supported their personal analysis.

The education system just doesn't seem to provide them with the skill set to do this - so while 1st year is manageable, in 2nd year they are expected to hit the ground running and have all of these skills at their finger tips but so many crash and burn because they have been badly served in a school system designed to earn points in a one size fits all exam.


The sad thing is I used to do tutorials on how to write an essay in my own time because so many couldn't. It was basic this is how an essay is structured stuff- we have an introduction...then we have the main body of the essay this is where you expand on...
Many of these students came from what would be considered top class fee paying schools but no one, apparently, had taught them the mechanics of writing an essay.

TBH - one of the common reasons people got low marks was an inability to answer the question they were asked. A skill that also seems to elude nearly every Irish politician I have ever seen.

Bannasidhe

EdgeCase wrote: »

I think in university it varies enormously. I had a fantastic experience in UCC in a particular department with massive leeway for thinking outside the box and thinking very critically was actively encouraged. We debated absolutely everything and lectures were totally interactive. It was a great experience.

Then a masters elsewhere in another subject area and it was abysmally all about rote learning. I felt like they were just running a sausage factory.

It's very much about the personalities and experience of the people delivering the programmes and the culture in the institution. I don't think you can generalise about Irish 3rd level or even about individual universities as culture changes enormously from department to department and even depending who leads those departments.

I wonder about the way we measure performance at 3rd level though. I think we have a tendency to lean towards the tick box easy to measure stuff.

I just don't think you can make sweeping statements about a system that isn't at all standardised. Some of its good some of it isn't.

I agree.
And I have had ... tense moments.. with colleagues in my own dept but my point was actually about how we prepare students for life after school rather than life in University as such. Plus I don't think for a second my experience is universal across the disciplines. I am saying that, in my experience our school system is too reliant on rote learning and this means students need to learn how to think when they get to universities - and often how to write - when they should arrive with these skills in place ready to take it up a notch.


Back in the late 90s The History dept in UCC actually produced a manual on how to write - if memory serves it was titled Up with which I will not put.

I don't actually believe everyone should go to university or that that is the be all and end all. Some people are suited for academia, some are not. That doesn't mean the former are somehow smarter or better. It just means they are academically inclined. I hate that we place more value on that than on other skills are that just as, if not more, valuable.

I'm an academic. I work with academics. If I need help - or anything even vaguely practical done -the last person I want to see is an academic.

EdgeCase

The problem I see with the school system is the CAO. The underlying Leaving Certificate programme was fine until it started to be a requirement to get very high marks and it became about gaming the exams rather than education.

It's something that comes up in management all the time. People focus on what's messured. So education was replaced with a points race.

I remember one thing sticking in my throat. I didn't want or need 600 points and I didn't work for them. I enjoyed my school days and I got enough for a subject I wanted to do. However, I met my career guidance teacher when I was graduating with a masters and he said "you were worth a lot more than 490 points! You could have done medicine."

I never wanted to do medicine and I certainly didn't want to break my back on rote learning to get 600 points to achieve something that meant nothing to me.

That to me summed up everything that's wrong with Irish second level. Since a when has my net worth been a CAO point value? It's only a bureaucratic tool for assigning university places based on supply and demand.

decky1

seems this has turned into a driving license debate, the Irish people hav'nt the balls for any of that yellow jacket stuff, you can't beat the French for getting things done , would love to see the Irish people doing as the french do and lets get some results to bed shortages , taxing the super rich and all the other thing we moan about but do nothing.

EdgeCase

What exactly do the French get done?
They live in a country that has what is now classified academically as a flawed democracy. It has a highly executive presidency that can become way too powerful in a situation where the parliament and presidency line up. That's when things tend to go 'dans la rue!!'

It's also got a history (as I pointed out earlier in this thread) of 7 year presidential terms that only changed in the early 2000s

They've been in relative economic stagnation for the last 30 years and seem to go around in circles unable to reform anything. By reform I don't mean right wing néolibéralisme, that is not the only alternative to the current french system.

France should be a lot more like Scandinavia, but it's not and that's largely down to very dysfunctional politics.

I've lived in France and I can understand why people get frustrated.

You end up with a presidential election choice between Marine Le Pen or Macron/Sarkozy or some similar centre right Toryesque type. That's not remotely representative of french public opinion and that's why you have riots.

It's a broken first past the post system just like the US and UK only with a more left leaning public than either of those.

If you want to shut down the country every ten mins and still resolve absolutely nothing - adopt the French model.

If Irish people want change they can achieve it very easily. We don't have a big heavy power bloc to deal with and we have one of the most open democracies on the planet, if we want to change something we can. It just takes a bit of a push.

Have a look at what happened with the two recent referenda. If you want to see big change on housing, you need to make sure that TDs and candidates know that it's an election issue.

Shutting the port tunnel does what exactly?
Anger already frustrated commuters? Damage the economy?

We have way better political systems than first past the post democracies like France and we don't need to import that mess.

The whole point of a functioning democracy is you don't have to resort to violent uprisings to have your voice heard. That's usually a sign of a system that's ignoring its population and has no channels of communication between 'us' as 'them'.

The now regular violence in France is causing a downturn in tourism, it's making people think twice about investing there. It's resulted in loss of Brexit dividend, despite the fact that Paris should be and could be a viable alternative to London a lot of companies are concerned about jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire.

I mean think about it practically: if you had to go on a long trip would you route through Paris CDG, where strikes and shut downs are always a risk, or just go to Amsterdam?

The French public have very legitimate grievances and they are not being listened to. Macron isn't even good at presenting himself as a good listener. It's been a case of I know best. You're all morons! He's even ticked people off on the street - that kid who called him Manu who got told "address me by my title" (similar to Bishop Brennan speaking to Douglas when he called him Len) and telling an unemployed man to go look behind him at the many jobs available and so on.

The guy was elected because he was a less unpleasant option than Marine Le Pen. Don't assume that he has widespread support. He doesn't. He is detested by the left, centre left, greens and others who voted for him solely to avoid Le Pen. Yet, he's arrogant enough not to comprehend that.

If you want to bring Ireland down that route, I don't think many people would be too appreciative, particularly when we don't have the highly dominant, all powerful government setup to deal with in the first place and a hugely open democratic system.

j8wk2feszrnpao

decky1 wrote: »

seems this has turned into a driving license debate, the Irish people hav'nt the balls for any of that yellow jacket stuff, you can't beat the French for getting things done , would love to see the Irish people doing as the french do and lets get some results to bed shortages , taxing the super rich and all the other thing we moan about but do nothing.

So you're ok if I don a yellow vest and petrol bomb your car/property to make a point?

padd b1975

Bannasidhe wrote: »

During a stint living in Brisbane I developed kidney stones. Big ouch. As I had a permanent visa I could avail of medicare so off I went to the local G.P (for free), she referred me for various tests (bloods, big machines that went beep - the works). I groaned thinking that's a day on a polypropylene chair in a waiting room so...
Not a bit of it. About 100 yards away was a neighbourhood facility that did all of that. For free. You name it they tested/scanned it. While I was being tested/scanned for one thing they were compiling the results of the other things. 2 hours later I was put in a taxi with all my results (told don't worry if I lost them as they had been sent electronically). I did have to pay for the taxi :P and sent to the local hospital where they were expecting me.

I have to say I was so flabbergasted by this level of joined up thinking it took my mind nearly off the pain.

Same deal with getting my driving licence in Sydney. I had to do a theory test, x amount of lessons (I think it was 3 as I had a full Irish) and a driving test. Groan...
Nope.
One stop shop in my local shopping centre. All the Boroughs had one.
Popped in and did my theory test there and then. They gave me a list of approved driving instructors, so I phoned and booked lessons, and applied to do the test in 5 days. Within a week I had a full drivers licence and a car registered in my name that had 3rd party insurance as part of the rego fee.
Moved to Brisbane so had to get a QLD licence and reg plates. Again - a one stop shop. All done in less than 2 hours including new plates on car.

It seems here we need to jump through hoops (and queue) for everything when with a little bit of joined up thinking...

Sounds too good to be true.

Unfortunately that quality of public service costs.

The suggestion of putting a few euro less in certain individual pockets to pay for it will bring even more high-viz loopers out of the woodwork.

Bannasidhe

EdgeCase wrote: »

The problem I see with the school system is the CAO. The underlying Leaving Certificate programme was fine until it started to be a requirement to get very high marks and it became about gaming the exams rather than education.

It's something that comes up in management all the time. People focus on what's messured. So education was replaced with a points race.

I remember one thing sticking in my throat. I didn't want or need 600 points and I didn't work for them. I enjoyed my school days and I got enough for a subject I wanted to do. However, I met my career guidance teacher when I was graduating with a masters and he said "you were worth a lot more than 490 points! You could have done medicine."

I never wanted to do medicine and I certainly didn't want to break my back on rote learning to get 600 points to achieve something that meant nothing to me.

That to me summed up everything that's wrong with Irish second level. Since a when has my net worth been a CAO point value? It's only a bureaucratic tool for assigning university places based on supply and demand.

Absolutely.

It places enormous pressure on students often for little return.

My son did not do well in the Irish system. I thought it was him. Mucho shouting in our house at exam times.
While we are in Oz he went to High School and excelled. The guy who failed was the A+ student by the end of first term. Why? Continuous assessment.

The end of year exam was worth 40% of overall marks - everything else was contained modules with a mark at the end. So, for example, he did computer studies. Off they went to the local TAFE (like a Regional Tech collage) to use their facilities. At the end of the 8 week module each student had to supply the teacher with the web address of the web site they designed and set up. That was the minimum. Then points were given for technical content - hyperlinks, interactive images, moving content, clarity, overall design,user friendliness, etc. He aced it.
He didn't like woodwork - so he was allowed to work with fibreglass and plastics. He had to produce a certain amount of functional objects. I still have the keyring he made.


Back in Ireland he was once again the guy who failed. His problem was exams. He panicked and blanked. Afterwards he could answer every question but when faced with that blank piece of paper in an exam hall he couldn't breathe.
This was 18 years ago. The Aussies had an education system that recognised practical skills and academic skills and rewarded both.
You could fail the exam but pass the course - he didn't fail the exam as there wasn't any pressure.

This, now grown man, builds PC's for fun - he's just built his kids one for Xmas- but ask him to sit an exam on it and you'd think he never saw a PC in his life. And sad to say it has undermined his confidence as he doesn't believe he would ever be able to get the " piece of paper" that would allow him to work in the field he loves.

The reliance on the one exam and the race for points is wasteful and shortsighted as it diminishes the value of people's abilities and undermines the confidence of those who don't find exams easy (and fun) but excel in other areas.

Now, we got son through the LC with the aid of hypnotheraphy to help calm his anxiety. But if it hadn't been for his experience in Oz he would have seen himself as "stupid" - and I learned a valuable lesson too as I really didn't understand what the problem was so I thought he was just a lazy effer.
Me - I love exams. I aced some exams by a combination of technique and excellent presentation of complete B.S.
It never occurred to me that some people might not be able to spew academic trivia at the sight of a piece of paper.
That experience did benefit my students as I learned to recognise anxiety - so say students had to give a presentation but public speaking was impossible for them... nowt in the rules say it can't just be them and me in the room. Or that we can't have sweeties and a laugh first.

Franz Von Peppercorn

padd b1975 wrote: »

Sounds too good to be true.

Unfortunately that quality of public service costs.

The suggestion of putting a few euro less in certain individual pockets to pay for it will bring even more high-viz loopers out of the woodwork.

Ireland’s tax base is too shallow. Far too much concentration on (middle) income. And too few taxes on corporations, wealth, etc.

EdgeCase

To be fair, it's not the political system that held up rollout of continuous assesment. It's the teachers. They threw their toys out of their collective prams over the Junior Cert reforms and even though the Leaving Cert applied has been an option for years, very few schools offer it.

Incidentally, the French baccalaureate system is remarkably similar to the Leaving Cert in terms of extreme exam focus and pressure.

P_1

padd b1975 wrote: »

Sounds too good to be true.

Unfortunately that quality of public service costs.

The suggestion of putting a few euro less in certain individual pockets to pay for it will bring even more high-viz loopers out of the woodwork.

True, alas the majority of people are of the "I'm alright jack" philosophy and would scream bloody murder at that even though it would be for the better good of all

DS86DS

EdgeCase wrote: »

The now regular violence in France is causing a downturn in tourism, it's making people think twice about investing there.

Yeah, because that has everything to do with the Yellow Vest Movement and nothing to do with mass immigration, [ii] terrorism, [iii] Islamification [IV] attacks on tourists by migrants. :rolleyes:

https://youtu.be/56b_rmUHUg4

EdgeCase

DS86DS wrote: »

Yeah, because that has everything to do with the Yellow Vest Movement and nothing to do with mass immigration, [ii] terrorism, [iii] Islamification [IV] attacks on tourists by migrants. :rolleyes:

https://youtu.be/56b_rmUHUg4

It's a combination of the terrorism and the endless 'en grève' problems actually as those things have huge impacts on visitors.

There are so many strikes in France there's even a mobile app and website running for the last few years to keep track of them so you can avoid them (or I suppose join in if you're a protest tourist)

http://www.cestlagreve.fr/

Just to give you an example of how crazy it gets.

I was in Nantes a few years ago and there were protests over the new airport. This is a really well planned airport that's been on the cards since the 1960s and replaces a totally undersized airport in almost the city centre that is causing serious issues.

The new airport will serve Nantes and Rennes. It's linked by excellent public transport and motorways. It's being constructed to the highest eco standards and is generally a model of planning.

The farmers who's land was being subject to CPO were annoyed and protested. Then the environmentalists protested. That was all fine I mean both have legitimate points to make.
Then the anarchists joined in and the 'casseurs' arrived. They burnt down shops, they smashed up trams, busses, burnt bus stops, ripped up anything that wasn't screwed down.

Millions of Euro of damage was done to public property, businesses, houses, people's cars, trams, tram lines .. you name it it was smashed and it was terrifying to witness. Belfast would have had nothing on it at the height of a riot.

That's the kind of crap that goes on in France and it's nothing to do with immigration or anything else. It's just French politics of 'dans la rue!'. If you're annoyed by something, go light a wheelie bin on fire or burn down a mobile phone shop - that's basically what happens.

Every single protest starts off as something quite sensible and legitimate and next thing it's morphed into a bunch of thugs going head to head with the police and frankly the police don't help either they seem to almost relish the idea of throwing tear gas.

So in the space of a few hours what is otherwise a very pleasant and sedate city turns into what looks like a war zone and it's small businesses, councils and people who live near city centres who end up having to pick up the damage.

There were issues with transit systems for weeks due to damaged lines and trams.

I also witnessed a bunch of guys with face masks get onto a tram and kick out the windows swinging off the bars and terrorising passengers.

If you want to call that political protest, it's a fairly long stretch of the definition.

We had kids in the local high school go on strike by setting light to a huge wheelie bin full of rubbish and pushing it into the school foyer!

They also attack not only the police but fire officers and ambulances.

If you think that kind of stuff will somehow fix the HSE or solve a housing crisis. I don't know what planet you're living on.

I'm not saying that France doesn't have problems. It absolutely does - particularly with social mobility and ghettoisation and a perception of lack of opportunity / pulled up ladders. What it doesn't have is a mechanism to allow multiple points of view to be represented or any kind of consensus building processes. So you've got hard left vs hard right and all sorts of flavours in between all out to get each other at the moment.

Ireland has issues, but they are not those issues and we have better mechanisms for resolving them.

Bannasidhe

EdgeCase wrote: »

To be fair, it's not the political system that held up rollout of continuous assesment. It's the teachers. They threw their toys out of their collective prams over the Junior Cert reforms and even though the Leaving Cert applied has been an option for years, very few schools offer it.

Incidentally, the French baccalaureate system is remarkably similar to the Leaving Cert in terms of extreme exam focus and pressure.

I agree. I found the attitude of teachers bizarre to say the least. Did they not realise they had been examined under continuous assessment to get their degrees?
As for all this stuff about there might be favouritism--- not showing much faith in their profession.

I prefer doing the continuous assessment grading personally - and not just because it tends to be typed so I'm not struggling to read people's hand writing. But that might be because lecturers also correct scripts which land in the hundreds with little time to get them marked.
In my world C.A happens in manageable bunches of presentations and type written dissertations but end of years exams are is my desk hidden under toppling piles of squiggly writing and time pressure.

Yes, The French are even more obsessed with academic results than we are but don't suffer as much from our anti-intellectualism.

My three nieces did the Swiss baccalaureate - two having been put in the academic stream in secondary school, the other went vocational. The Swiss school system is quite complex with pupils streamed into academic or vocational as soon as they enter secondary - different schools for different streams with variations according to canton. One struggled and although she made it to university dropped out to go to art college, another rejoiced in it and now works for the Swiss govt, the 3rd manages a hotel in Montreux so she obviously did quite well in her stream.

When I was a lass we had a (slightly) similar system here - those doing vocational/apprenticeships tended to leave after the Inter Cert (which actually had an academic value unlike now) and follow that path while the more office work inclined stayed on to do the Leaving and the wanna be professionals aiming for 3rd level did the Matric - which you could buy if you got enough marks in the LC. I opted to sit the exam. To this day I don't know what I was thinking. I could have bought the bloody thing and saved meself 3 more exams.

It had it's faults but it had it's merits too.

I am intrigued by what the Finns are doing - I have to do more research on it.

EdgeCase

@Bannasidhe: I would suspect it was a perception that it might mean bigger workloads and also the usual extreme resistance to change you get in certain professions. You had a cohort immediately began looking for reasons why it couldn't be done. Some people just do not like change.

In Ireland at least, it's also historically been a fairly conservative profession.

I wouldn't really rate the current incarnation of the French system. Overall its results aren't ranking well internationally and it's kind of been hollowed out, particularly at public university undergraduate level by people fast-tracking into semi-private routes to Ecole Superieure (grad school). There's also a lot of hierarchical behaviour by academics which is not quite the case in Ireland. There's much made of standing on ceremony, titles, and lack of approachability.

I know from students going through the Lycée system that it's huge stress, huge hours and often very disciplinarian - i.e. the shout, shout, undermine and be sarcastic model of teaching. I'd know a few people who've had a comparison between the French, Belgian and German models and Germany would come out a lot better, more practical and much more student-centric in that comparison.

I actually see similarities between the French and Irish systems at second level (other than the Irish system's over religiosity). It's more that both have a very traditional fixation on exams, exams and more exams and somewhat of an inability to see that other systems might actually work better or could be incorporated into methodologies. Both systems also have a history of quite top-down, shut up and take notes type of teaching.

France kind of put is old systems on a pedestal and they directly trace their way way back to the napoleonic and republican ideas of a meritocracy.

Ireland sort of skipped the postwar reforms that were seen in other countries and really got trapped in very archaic approach to education for far too long at school level, which it was actually pretty progressive at university level. I think in a way we are only starting to catch up with the mid-20th century now on a whole lot of issues.

Bannasidhe

EdgeCase wrote: »

@Bannasidhe: I would suspect it was a perception that it might mean bigger workloads and also the usual extreme resistance to change you get in certain professions. You had a cohort immediately began looking for reasons why it couldn't be done. Some people just do not like change.

In Ireland at least, it's also historically been a fairly conservative profession.

I think as a society we are terrified of change even when what we have is palpably not fit for purpose.
From the beginning we kept many of the old British ways of doing things but stuck a harp on top - when there was a real opportunity to create a way more in keeping with Irish sensibilities. The Scots, for example, even before devolution, had Scottish ways (e.g. the verdict of "not proven" in criminal trials).

Our national motto should be "That's the way we've always done it".