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Backstop

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    #62
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,760 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Witcher wrote: »
    The Falklands?
    That was a very close win.

    Yes the UK converted container ships and car ferries into helicopter carriers in less than two month but you have to remember they had already sold one carrier to Oz and announced the scrapping of Hermes. Had Argentina waited a few months it would have been no contest. And they are repeating that mistake now. They sold off the last of the Harriers for a song, had they been mothballed the UK would still be able to cobble something together PDQ if needed. ( A fleet in being for the cost of air conditioning a warehouse ) Instead they'll have to wait years for operational carriers.


    Without the US supplying the latest version of air to air missiles and other bits of kit it would have been very different. The US as an ally of Argentina and having done exercises with them, sold them down the river and provided the UK with all the manuals.



    Against that they lost several Cod Wars with Iceland.


    OK , back on topic.
    27,000 troops couldn't prevent 40% of the vehicle fuel in NI being smuggled or laundered. A hard border will fund the men of violence. And that is why we can't have it back.


    The UK keeps saying it doesn't want a hard border, and has actually signed off on it. (not just promised, signed) The have also suggest magic eborders and other ways it could happen.

    Or more realistically there are mechanisms where UK suppliers could do minimal self declared customs checks and the EU is willing to go along with that as long as there isn't proof of widespread fraud. This isn't anything new either, on both sides of the border a blind eye has been turned to dodgy deals because the alternative is to stir up a hornets nest. The men of violence haven't gone away.

    The backstop is insurance that won't be needed if the UK can deliver on it's promises.

    If the UK and EU can do a deal on the border it won't be needed. The UK has promised that they will have a solution, the UK has signed off on this.


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    #63
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,072 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    spaceHopper wrote: »
    It's funny how May heads the Holland and Germany but doesn't come here or is it a case of we'll do as we are told by zi Germans

    She's in Dublin tomorrow. Your attempt at humour with the "zi" was a bit shiite.


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    #64
    Lefty Bicek
    Registered Users Posts: 1,625 ✭✭✭Lefty Bicek


    Originally Posted by troyzer
    Although the Brits have largely given up on this idea that the German carmakers will make sure Britain gets a favourable deal, they still think that Merkel dictates European policy.

    They talked about it recently on the Irish Times podcast. Their unfounded belief that the EU is a German pawn was one of the main reasons they left and also one of the main reasons they thought a deal would be easy.


    Lefty Bicek wrote: »
    The people who say that the EU is a German pawn... what are their reasons for saying so ?



    I ask again...


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    #65
    Raheem Euro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 327 ✭✭Raheem Euro


    Had anyone tried turning the UK off and on again?


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    #66
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    troyzer wrote: »
    Ah yes, I forgot to further qualify that statement.

    Against an equivalent power. Which Argentina certainly wasn't.

    Argentina could have "won" it. Made a balls of the country and the invasion however!

    And went up against Maggie.


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    #67
    Always Tired
    Closed Accounts Posts: 945 ✭✭✭Always Tired


    Backstop...

    Hammertime!


    It's late, that's all I got.


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    #68
    pleas advice
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,492 ✭✭✭pleas advice


    BACKSTOP! Yurgiddafurdarataara
    REDTOPS!

    Why Don't You, Trust, In, My,


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    #69
    pleas advice
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,492 ✭✭✭pleas advice


    Steak-knife, card-shark
    Con-job, back-stop

    Skin that flick/She's such a little DJ
    Get there quick/By street but not the freeway
    Turn that trick/To make a little leeway
    Beat that nic/But not the way that we play


    Standing in line
    To see the show tonight
    And there's a light on
    Heavy glow
    By the way I tried to say
    I'd be there, waiting for...


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    #70
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    Why is it such a big thing that there's no proper border, and how are we able to dictate to the UK what they do with their own borders?


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    #71
    vicwatson
    Registered Users Posts: 28,403 ✭✭✭✭vicwatson


    My gut feeling is that Varadkar and co will bow to whatever the EU tell him to do.

    Ordinary people don’t matter to this lot anymore, this is now about May doing whatever she has to to keep DUP happy to keep her in government, in power. And for what? I’d say she has well lost any respect in her own country yet is still so obsessed with remaining in power she has lost sight of what ordinary British people want. 10 DUPS holding the UK to ransom, who’d have thought it.


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    #72
    vicwatson
    Registered Users Posts: 28,403 ✭✭✭✭vicwatson


    Patww79 wrote: »
    Why is it such a big thing that there's no proper border, and how are we able to dictate to the UK what they do with their own borders?

    The GFA might have set out the reasons


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    #73
    troyzer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,199 ✭✭✭troyzer


    Lefty Bicek wrote: »
    I ask again...

    Because Germany is the most powerful member of the EU which itself has always been a Paris-Berlin Axis with rowdy outsiders like London mostly complaining but sometimes shaping the union. Germany also weren't afraid to exert their influence during the euro crisis.
    prinzeugen wrote: »
    Argentina could have "won" it. Made a balls of the country and the invasion however!

    And went up against Maggie.

    I don't think they could have. They banked everything on the UK not having the political will to resist.
    Patww79 wrote: »
    Why is it such a big thing that there's no proper border, and how are we able to dictate to the UK what they do with their own borders?

    Because the UK has obligations to the island of Ireland under the Good Friday Agreement. A treaty which has the weight of international law behind it. Although not explicit in the text, the understanding was that the European citizenship element and lack of borders meant that we could live in a world where realistically while we were all Europeans, there was little practical difference between being British or Irish.

    The lack of border was critical to this.


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    #74
    realdanbreen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,136 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    She's in Dublin tomorrow. Your attempt at humour with the "zi" was a bit shiite.


    Ve hav ways of making you laugh!:D


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    #75
    realdanbreen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,136 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    Raheem Euro wrote: »
    Had anyone tried turning the UK off and on again?

    Looks like they're doing that today!
    When they turn it back on Boris Johnson will be leader--that should work!:D


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    #76
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    Patww79 wrote: »
    Why is it such a big thing that there's no proper border, and how are we able to dictate to the UK what they do with their own borders?

    Because they signed an internationally-binding treaty on the issue. The border is also a big deal as it would cause major disruption to the communities on either side of it and because the majority of the Irish people don’t want it.


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    #77
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Leave em to it Teresa and head off to the Caribbean for the winter. You’ve done all you could do to secure a decent deal.


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    #78
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    FTA69 wrote: »
    Because they signed an internationally-binding treaty on the issue. The border is also a big deal as it would cause major disruption to the communities on either side of it and because the majority of the Irish people don’t want it.

    Yeah but why don't they just pull out, no deal, put in border points and raise the two fingers to everyone. What's the point to them leaving the EU in name only and letting us and the EU dictate what they do with their own borders, the gfa is hardly worth the paper it's written on once they leave surely?


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    #79
    realdanbreen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,136 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    FTA69 wrote: »
    Because they signed an internationally-binding treaty on the issue.
    When did the british ever keep their word?
    Their whole kingdom was built on invading, exploiting and plundering other nations.


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    #80
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    Patww79 wrote: »
    Yeah but why don't they just pull out, no deal, put in border points and raise the two fingers to everyone. What's the point to them leaving the EU in name only and letting us and the EU dictate what they do with their own borders, the gfa is hardly worth the paper it's written on once they leave surely?

    Because they still need somewhat decent relations with their neighbours; international diplomacy isn’t just about telling people to f*ck off. You can do that if you’re Putin and constantly in a row anyway. You can’t do it when you’re an isolated country in Europe who has shat on your neighbours who can put the screws on economically if they want.

    Doing what you say could provoke economic sanctions, UN condemnation and also reignite a conflict within UK borders they’d be obliged to participate in again. Doesn’t sound too appealing does it?


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    #81
    bnt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,959 ✭✭✭✭bnt


    Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »
    Leave em to it Teresa and head off to the Caribbean for the winter. You’ve done all you could do to secure a decent deal.
    Considering that May is facing a vote of no confidence today, she could end up on holiday for longer than that. She was supposed to come to Dublin today to talk to the Taoiseach, but that's off until her position is resolved either way.

    From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, ‘Look at that, you son of a bitch’.

    — Edgar Mitchell, Apollo 14 Astronaut



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    #82
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    I’m so glad I’m not living in the UK anymore. The whole thing is a cluster****. Normal people want the whole thing to just go away at this stage. Neither conservatives nor Labour have shown any reason to be voted for if there were a GE.


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    #83
    sjb25
    Registered Users Posts: 3,376 ✭✭✭sjb25


    British govt in disarray MPs freaking out conservatives have imploded

    Irish govt response


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    #84
    Mrsmum
    Registered Users Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭Mrsmum


    Heard a piece on the Radio this morning and the gist of it was embarrassment was almost the only reason now why the British people want to keep going on the mad track they are on. To have to turn around and say oops we were wrong is more humiliation than they could bear especially with them being the big empire in their minds. So that being the case it's a matter of finding some way of allowing them to save face. It's a bit like a marital relationship, when your welfare is tied up in theirs, the wisest course of action is often to allow the other side to keep a bit of dignity. If you destroy them, you destroy yourself also so for self interest alone is there any 'out' we can give them here, some small win which means nothing but spares their blushes ?????


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    #85
    Berserker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,046 ✭✭✭Berserker


    FTA69 wrote: »
    The border is also a big deal as it would cause major disruption to the communities on either side of it and because the majority of the Irish people don’t want it.

    How does every other country around the world manage? The EU will put a border in place once Brexit happens. They are only playing nice on the matter at the moment because it makes life more difficult for the UK. The EU will not allow an open border between the UK and the EU long term.
    Patww79 wrote: »
    Yeah but why don't they just pull out, no deal, put in border points and raise the two fingers to everyone. What's the point to them leaving the EU in name only and letting us and the EU dictate what they do with their own borders, the gfa is hardly worth the paper it's written on once they leave surely?

    If TM loses the vote this evening, I honestly don't know who'll be the next PM but if we end up with a pure Brexiter, for want of a better word, we could end up in that scenario. Tough times ahead for the UK, if that happens but it'll hit Ireland just as hard, if not harder.
    sjb25 wrote: »
    British govt in disarray MPs freaking out conservatives have imploded

    Irish govt response

    If it's a hard Brexit that grin will disappear pretty quickly.


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    #86
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,127 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »
    I’m so glad I’m not living in the UK anymore. The whole thing is a cluster****. Normal people want the whole thing to just go away at this stage. Neither conservatives nor Labour have shown any reason to be voted for if there were a GE.

    I'm disgusted by labour. they should be providing a decent opposition bit they appear to be in it for short term gains. Rather than articulating a clear view of where they want to go, Corbyn is saying that even at this stage he could renegotiate a better deal. Their whole strategy seems to be to let the country burn to the ground so they can get elected and then be in charge of the charred heap.


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    #87
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    Berserker wrote: »
    How does every other country around the world manage? The EU will put a border in place once Brexit happens. They are only playing nice on the matter at the moment because it makes life more difficult for the UK. The EU will not allow an open border between the UK and the EU long term.

    Because few other countries in the world have a massive internal border that separates two people from the same nation in a contested territory. The border in Ireland divides communities, farms and even houses in some places; a continuation of the peace process and a militarisation of the border are pretty exclusive concepts.


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    #88
    Berserker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,046 ✭✭✭Berserker


    Grayson wrote: »
    I'm disgusted by labour. they should be providing a decent opposition bit they appear to be in it for short term gains. Rather than articulating a clear view of where they want to go, Corbyn is saying that even at this stage he could renegotiate a better deal. Their whole strategy seems to be to let the country burn to the ground so they can get elected and then be in charge of the charred heap.

    Did you honestly believe that a Labour led Corbyn would be any better? He is no better than the hard left over here. He'd sh1t the bed if a general election happened and he had to take the reigns.


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    #89
    orourkeda1977
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭orourkeda1977


    Hard Brexit

    Soft brexit

    soft backstop brexit

    no deal brexit

    backstop up the hole

    The mere mention of brexit makes me want to kill myself.

    BREXIT

    BREXIT

    BREXIT

    C*nt f*cking boll*x to Brexit.

    I'm f*cking sick of this sh1t


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    #90
    orourkeda1977
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭orourkeda1977


    Grayson wrote: »
    I'm disgusted by labour. they should be providing a decent opposition bit they appear to be in it for short term gains. Rather than articulating a clear view of where they want to go, Corbyn is saying that even at this stage he could renegotiate a better deal. Their whole strategy seems to be to let the country burn to the ground so they can get elected and then be in charge of the charred heap.

    They couldnt beat a Teresa May led tory party in the last general election. This alone castrates them to a degree (metaphorically speaking of course)


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    #91
    orourkeda1977
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭orourkeda1977


    Where's David Cameron these days?


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