Parking in a loading bay summons?

drunkmonkey

What's the court penalty as there's no option to pay once a summons is issued.

Imagine this scenario, a person is a commercial rate payer outside their own premises loading goods with insurance that covers them to carry goods in their own car. This imaginary person forgot to send back the appeals letter. The next letter was a summons. The council say they can't stop it once the summons is issued and the parking company refuse to stop the court case even though an offer to pay the late fine was made.


What could happen.

Under His Eye

Worst case senario a fine of the maximum amount, highly unlikely.

The best case would be the matter is dismissed.

drunkmonkey

What's the maximum fine double the original? find it strange they just won't take a payment.

AvonEnniskerry

drunkmonkey wrote:

What's the maximum fine double the original? find it strange they just won't take a payment.

They want to appeal not pay as far as I can see.

drunkmonkey

AvonEnniskerry wrote: »

They want to appeal not pay as far as I can see.

No they would have accepted the appeal once it was queried after the original fine was sent out, but as the appeal form wasn't sent back they moved to summons. Now nobody will take any payment to halt the court case.

Sleeper12

drunkmonkey wrote:

Imagine this scenario, a person is a commercial rate payer outside their own premises loading goods with insurance that covers them to carry goods in their own car. This imaginary person forgot to send back the appeals letter. The next letter was a summons. The council say they can't stop it once the summons is issued and the parking company refuse to stop the court case even though an offer to pay the late fine was made.

It's a private car in a commercial loading bay? Or is it a commercial car?

Auguste Comte

If you were entitled to use the loading bay bring whatever evidence you have that backs this up to your court sitting and it should get sorted in your favour.

drunkmonkey

Sleeper12 wrote: »

It's a private car in a commercial loading bay? Or is it a commercial car?

It's privately owned car but I'm self employed with business insurance for carrying goods. It's used nearly exclusively for business purposes.
The loading bay is outside the premises I pay commercial rates on.
As I said it wouldn't have got this far if I had sent in the appeal form.

Fann Linn

Go to court. State your case, and you'll probably get away with just the cost of the original fine.

Victor

drunkmonkey wrote: »

a person is a commercial rate payer outside their own premises loading goods with insurance that covers them to carry goods in their own car.

This is mere evidence. Complying with some laws doesn't mean you have complied wit all laws.

Ask the council for their 'grace period' policies. It may be that your circumstances are covered. However, grace periods are about prioritisation of enforcement, they do not confer rights.

Slanty

Loading bay was outside your premises, which you pay the rights to use.

Fight the case and hope the judge will see sense.

Fann Linn

Slanty wrote: »

Loading bay was outside your premises, which you pay the rights to use.

Fight the case and hope the judge will see sense.

Partially correct. In my past life as a traffic warden sometimes a business person would actually think that it was their own private loading bay, and would park there all day.

The op has to be careful that he didn't overstay his welcome and arrive into court only to be told that he's a serial offender and or has received warnings in the past.

Sleeper12

drunkmonkey wrote:

It's privately owned car but I'm self employed with business insurance for carrying goods. It's used nearly exclusively for business purposes. The loading bay is outside the premises I pay commercial rates on. As I said it wouldn't have got this far if I had sent in the appeal form.

Loading bay is only for commercial vehicles so I doubt the appeal letter would have worked anyway. You need commercial tax & insurance to use a loading bay. Its the tax disc itself that tells the traffic warden if you are supposed to be there or not.

You were unlucky.

drunkmonkey

Victor wrote: »

This is mere evidence. Complying with some laws doesn't mean you have complied wit all laws.

Ask the council for their 'grace period' policies. It may be that your circumstances are covered. However, grace periods are about prioritisation of enforcement, they do not confer rights.

The sticking point seems to be the tax, there saying some by law states it has to also have commercial tax.
That's not really my issue as I'll try and push for that to be ammended now that I know it exits.

My gripe is why do I have to bother going to court if I'm willing to pay the maximum fine right now. Surely it's a loss making exercise for them to proceed and a waste of mine and the judges time. Could be stuck there for the day waiting for it to be heard.
Alopa are saying they can't stop it as it's up to the city council and the city council are saying it's up to alopa (I could have alopa spelt wrong).

Think I'll put it in writing to the pair of them to show the judge there refusing to take the money.

drunkmonkey

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Loading bay is only for commercial vehicles so I doubt the appeal letter would have worked anyway. You need commercial tax & insurance to use a loading bay. Its the tax disc itself that tells the traffic warden if you are supposed to be there or not.

You were unlucky.

No sign on the loading bay to say that, it just says loading bay max stay 30 minutes been using it years and would have been sorted on appeal. I was loading, I'm a rate payer with commercial insurance.

AlanG

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Loading bay is only for commercial vehicles so I doubt the appeal letter would have worked anyway. You need commercial tax & insurance to use a loading bay. Its the tax disc itself that tells the traffic warden if you are supposed to be there or not.

You were unlucky.

This is correct - it's all to do with the commercial tax disk. Without commercial tax you cannot use a loading bay.

Fann Linn

In the good auld days when traffic wardens were employed directly by the council we were encouraged to apply discretion and only enforce to the rigours of the law to assist traffic management and at school gates etc for pedestrian safety.

Apcoa I believe work on a commercial agreement with the council and I don't believe they can afford the same leniency as the local senior roads engineer would allow.

Sleeper12

drunkmonkey wrote:

No sign on the loading bay to say that, it just says loading bay max stay 30 minutes been using it years and would have been sorted on appeal. I was loading, I'm a rate payer with commercial insurance.

It's in the rules of the road. A loading bay is only for commercial vehicles. Always has been.

I do feel for you. It'd be different if you had parked there, just to park but to be actually loading makes it a tough pill to swallow

Auguste Comte

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Loading bay is only for commercial vehicles so I doubt the appeal letter would have worked anyway. You need commercial tax & insurance to use a loading bay. Its the tax disc itself that tells the traffic warden if you are supposed to be there or not.

You were unlucky.

No sign on the loading bay to say that, it just says loading bay max stay 30 minutes been using it years and would have been sorted on appeal. I was loading, I'm a rate payer with commercial insurance.

It seems to be the taxation class not the insurance that gives an entitlement to use loading bays.


Loading Bays
No parking during the hours indicated on the street sign. This usually lasts from 7.00am to 7.00pm, Monday to Saturday.

Exceptions

Vehicles with a goods tax disc can park in a loading bay for a maximum of 30 minutes while actively loading or unloading.

Dial Hard

drunkmonkey wrote:

No sign on the loading bay to say that, it just says loading bay max stay 30 minutes been using it years and would have been sorted on appeal. I was loading, I'm a rate payer with commercial insurance.

Doesn't matter what rates you pay. If your car isn't taxed as a commercial you can't use the loading bay, simple as.

AvonEnniskerry

drunkmonkey wrote:

No sign on the loading bay to say that, it just says loading bay max stay 30 minutes been using it years and would have been sorted on appeal. I was loading, I'm a rate payer with commercial insurance.

I'm sorry as I misread your previous post about accepting the fine.

I believe it's in the rules of the road that Vehicles with a goods tax disc can park in a loading bay for a maximum of 30 minutes while actively loading or unloading.

Have you any paperwork or disc on display to inform the parking attendant to the fact that you rent a premises at the bay. If not I would certainly look into getting something that they would accept and allow.

Fann Linn

Auguste Comte wrote: »

It seems to be the taxation class not the insurance that gives an entitlement to use loading bays.


Loading Bays
No parking during the hours indicated on the street sign. This usually lasts from 7.00am to 7.00pm, Monday to Saturday.

Exceptions

Vehicles with a goods tax disc can park in a loading bay for a maximum of 30 minutes while actively loading or unloading.

Correct. Commercial tax only is the rule of thumb. Although discretion was allowed if a person was 'actively' loading or unloading.

drunkmonkey

Bye laws are made up at a local level though? Surely my commercial position position puts me well beyond the man in a van gone down for a breakfast roll.

GM228

drunkmonkey wrote: »

What's the court penalty as there's no option to pay once a summons is issued.

Imagine this scenario, a person is a commercial rate payer outside their own premises loading goods with insurance that covers them to carry goods in their own car. This imaginary person forgot to send back the appeals letter. The next letter was a summons. The council say they can't stop it once the summons is issued and the parking company refuse to stop the court case even though an offer to pay the late fine was made.


What could happen.

This isn't imaginary though is it?

drunkmonkey wrote: »

What's the maximum fine double the original? find it strange they just won't take a payment.

Original FCP is €40, court fine is a fine up to €1000 for first offence, €2000 for second, third* or subsequent* offences. (*A third or subsequent offence within 12 months can also carry 3 months imprisonment), on top of that you also get a criminal conviction.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

It's privately owned car but I'm self employed with business insurance for carrying goods. It's used nearly exclusively for business purposes.
The loading bay is outside the premises I pay commercial rates on.
As I said it wouldn't have got this far if I had sent in the appeal form.

It may be a privately owned car, but a loading bay can only be used for a goods vehicle which is taxed commercially, that is to say a vehicle exclusively used for carriage of goods, a private vehicle has no legal ability to park in a loading bay even if it is loading.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

The sticking point seems to be the tax, there saying some by law states it has to also have commercial tax.
That's not really my issue as I'll try and push for that to be ammended now that I know it exits.

My gripe is why do I have to bother going to court if I'm willing to pay the maximum fine right now. Surely it's a loss making exercise for them to proceed and a waste of mine and the judges time. Could be stuck there for the day waiting for it to be heard.
Alopa are saying they can't stop it as it's up to the city council and the city council are saying it's up to alopa (I could have alopa spelt wrong).

Think I'll put it in writing to the pair of them to show the judge there refusing to take the money.

It's not a bye-law, it's a Ministerial Regulation issued under the Road Traffic Act 1994 and only the Minister for Transport can amend them. It's not going to change, it's written that way for a reason.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

No sign on the loading bay to say that, it just says loading bay max stay 30 minutes been using it years and would have been sorted on appeal. I was loading, I'm a rate payer with commercial insurance.

Signs do not need to say that, the law states it, ignorance is not an excuse and all that.

GM228

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Bye laws are made up at a local level though? Surely my commercial position position puts me well beyond the man in a van gone down for a breakfast roll.

First off, it's not a bye-law, and secondly even if it was nobody's "position" puts them above ANY law.

P.S. If the man in a van has gone for a breakfast roll he too should get a fine.

Sleeper12

Auguste Comte wrote:

It seems to be the taxation class not the insurance that gives an entitlement to use loading bays.

If your vehicle has a commercial tax disc then by law you have to have commercial insurance. It's either a commercial vehicle or private vehicle. There isn't an in between.

Unfortunately none of this information helps you in your predicament

Victor

Consider getting commercial tax. I'm not sure you'll get it for a car.

You don't have to attend court - you could hire a solicitor to attend for you. Or you could play roulette and leave it completely up to the judge. Consider carefully.

Sleeper12

Victor wrote:

Consider getting commercial tax. I'm not sure you'll get it for a car.

He won't. The only way to get commercial tax is to reclassify it as a commercial vehicle.

drunkmonkey

GM228 wrote: »

Original FCP is €40, court fine is a fine up to €1000 for first offence, €2000 for second, third* or subsequent* offences. (*A third or subsequent offence within 12 months can also carry 3 months imprisonment), on top of that you also get a criminal conviction.

That's what I couldn't find anywhere, are you serious though, 3 unpaid parking fines could in theory cost you 5k and 3mts in prison.

drunkmonkey

Sleeper12 wrote: »

He won't. The only way to get commercial tax is to reclassify it as a commercial vehicle.

Wouldn't mind that, cheaper tax, don't think it's possible though.

ratracer

Out of interest, how long might this person have had their car parked in said loading bay before being ticketed? And as it’s ‘just outside’ the rented premises, is it a regular occurrence?

drunkmonkey

Maybe parked there 5 minutes was gone in to get a few boxes, use the loading bay about once a month. Free underground car park close by I normally use but not when loading stuff as it's too much of a security risk.

4ensic15

There is no different law for commercial ratepayers vs any other persons.

GM228

drunkmonkey wrote: »

That's what I couldn't find anywhere, are you serious though, 3 unpaid parking fines could in theory cost you 5k and 3mts in prison.

Very serious, note however they are the maximum potential punishment as allowed for by the law, the chances of actually getting such are low.

Marcusm

drunkmonkey wrote: »

No sign on the loading bay to say that, it just says loading bay max stay 30 minutes been using it years and would have been sorted on appeal. I was loading, I'm a rate payer with commercial insurance.

It your vehicle is not taxed as a goods vehicle. Which local authority was it? We’re the appropriate bye laws in place to restrict to “goods vehicles” only. Can’t see that you would have any other defences.

GM228

Marcusm wrote: »

It your vehicle is not taxed as a goods vehicle. Which local authority was it? We’re the appropriate bye laws in place to restrict to “goods vehicles” only. Can’t see that you would have any other defences.

The restrictions on parking in loading bays is not set by local bye-laws, it comes under Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) Regulations 1997. As such the restriction to goods vehicles applies equally to all local authority areas, the only control a local authority have in relation to a loading bay is to set the operating times or vary the 30 minute loading time.

ED E

Marcusm wrote: »

It your vehicle is not taxed as a goods vehicle. Which local authority was it? We’re the appropriate bye laws in place to restrict to “goods vehicles” only. Can’t see that you would have any other defences.

No byelaw needed AFAIK, its in the RTA 1997, Section 42.

42. (1) Where traffic sign number RRM 009 [Loading Bay] is provided, a vehicle other than a goods vehicle being used for loading or unloading shall not be parked during a period which shall be indicated on an information plate.

(2) A goods vehicle being used for loading or unloading shall not be parked in a loading bay for a period exceeding 30 minutes.

"goods vehicle" means a vehicle used exclusively for carrying goods and taxed for commercial purposes;

Update: Too slow for GM.

Claw Hammer

Victor wrote: »

This is mere evidence. C.

It is not eidence. It is irrelevant. A vehicle as illegally parked. The perpetrator as caught and couldn't be arsed paying the fine on time. That is all that is relevant. The rest is just self pity. If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

GarIT

Do you not need commercial tax and insurance to carry goods related to your business in your vehicle?

Marcusm

GM228 wrote: »

The restrictions on parking in loading bays is not set by local bye-laws, it comes under Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) Regulations 1997. As such the restriction to goods vehicles applies equally to all local authority areas, the only control a local authority have in relation to a loading bay is to set the operating times or vary the 30 minute loading time.

Well that pretty much makes it strict liability; drunkmonkey: throw yourself at the DJ’s mercy.

GM228

Marcusm wrote: »

Well that pretty much makes it strict liability; drunkmonkey: throw yourself at the DJ’s mercy.

Like many minor motoring related offences, it is indeed a strict liability offence.

Marcusm

I want to create a lobby to make it a lawful excuse to a criminal damage charge where only cosmetic damage (preferably with a key) is caused to a car unlawfully parked in a disabled bay. I’ve had a bad and I am fed up having to demonstrate with selfish individuals. Do I have any supporters?

Mod
I sympathise with your view on the misuse of disabled bay, but
scratching a car with a key can do rather more than cosmetic damage.
Pls do not proceed with that aspect of your proposed campaign,
Boards.ie cannot condone illegal activity

drunkmonkey

We'll I read an article today where charges were dropped by the dpp for someone causing damage to a jelly bean machine as it took his €2 and wouldn't give it back. Maybe if you get off the disabled bus and identify as a jelly bean machine you might get away with it.

GM228

drunkmonkey wrote: »

We'll I read an article today where charges were dropped by the dpp for someone causing damage to a jelly bean machine as it took his €2 and wouldn't give it back. Maybe if you get off the disabled bus and identify as a jelly bean machine you might get away with it.

That's not why they were dropped (and they were not charges for criminal damage, they were public order and assault charges). Three people were charged and one of them (the one who hit the machine) was a Garda Inspector.....

.....should I go on?

(The DPP refused to explain why the charges were dropped).

drunkmonkey

No was just adding a bit of light humour, pretty obvious why they were dropped in that case.

L1011

GarIT wrote: »

Do you not need commercial tax and insurance to carry goods related to your business in your vehicle?

You need the insurance which they say they have. Standard car insurance does not cover it but Class 1 does in most cases and usually costs a tiny fraction - its about 0.5% for me, one year it was actually a reduction surreally - extra.

You need the appropriate vehicle and tax to use loading bays, though. Most 4/5 seat vehicles (not all) cannot be taxed as goods.

Carry goods as the specific job - not part of a job - requires totally different insurance. So a courier etc cannot use Class 1. Sales also can't.

Losty Dublin

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Wouldn't mind that, cheaper tax, don't think it's possible though.

Plus side; cheaper tax, parking in the loading bay for up to 30 minutes :pac:

Negative side; dearer tolls, insurance will probably increase significantly, likely worse fuel economy than a car unless you get a car van vehicle, vans are not generally good for passenger carrying.

Victor

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Plus side; cheaper tax, parking in the loading bay for up to 30 minutes

Up to 30 minutes ... while loading.

Mike3549

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Plus side; cheaper tax, parking in the loading bay for up to 30 minutes :pac:

Negative side; dearer tolls, insurance will probably increase significantly, likely worse fuel economy than a car unless you get a car van vehicle, vans are not generally good for passenger carrying.

How will the tolls be dearer?
If you convert your passenger ford focus to commercial focus, the class and rate stays the same.
Also insuranse is cheaper. 2 years ago I got a quote for my lancer 1.6L petrol - €1100 comp. Became self employed, Sold the car, bought a van 2.4L more yearly miles - €800 comp open drive. This year, compr only - €600, while the ins for the family 1.6L diesel cost more.

P.s. i dont know what car you're driving, if it happened to be ford focus, it is only coincidental

L1011

They're a different toll class and are usually quite a bit dearer. Charged the same as a van.