UN Migration Pact Ireland's Position?

RandomName2

hill16bhoy wrote: »

This thread and this website has been a very good demonstration of such.

You mean the people who blame white men like Primo Levi, Simon Wiesenthal, Witold Pilecki, and Otto Frank for the holocaust.

Wait, that was you.

hill16bhoy wrote: »

And it's only a microcosm of what crypto-Nazis are doing across social media.

Somebody has to shut up those damn fascists.

hill16bhoy wrote: »

The Twitter timeline of a certain Irish "investigative journalist" is another very instructive example of how nakedly crypto-Nazi views become exposed.

It really doesn't matter what someone is saying, but where their political affiliations lie, right? Because subjective moralism always takes precedence over truth. :rolleyes:

sheesh

Does anyone think that maybe the poles and Hungarians might be entitled not to sign it?

I mean it is their border. and if they want to control who comes and goes through it let them. If they can take the hit in the loss of foreign investment then let them off.
I think it would be brilliant if they decided that they didn't want 'foreign types' in their country 2 less EU countries to compete against in looking for FDI.

I think we should all just say 'we respect their brave decision'

Eric Cartman

Redneck Culchie wrote: »

Brid Smith I think was in the protest at one point with Boyd Barrett chanting "Nazi scum off our streets" and "no borders no nations" while waving communist flags. Who is the real danger? These are elected TD's given free reign!

Sure its always their motives , call everyone who disagrees a nazi and be done with it. The waving the flag of one of the few regimes that was more fascist, killed more people and oppressed more people than adolf ever could have is just the icing on the cake.

Varik

RandomName2 wrote: »

I've never heard anyone describe New Flemish Alliance as far-right before, but yes they are nationalist, and not left wing.

They are also the largest party in Belgium.

There are 2 Flemish nationalist parties, might be where the confusion is coming from.

Eric Cartman

sheesh wrote: »

Does anyone think that maybe the poles and Hungarians might be entitled not to sign it?

I mean it is their border. and if they want to control who comes and goes through it let them. If they can take the hit in the loss of foreign investment then let them off.
I think it would be brilliant if they decided that they didn't want 'foreign types' in their country 2 less EU countries to compete against in looking for FDI.

I think we should all just say 'we respect their brave decision'

and its one of the many reasons most manufacturing and a lot of mulitnationals are investing in these countries that are safer than all of the ones that have signed. Sure leave them at it, itll all go to ruin again with their peaceful lives and being able to have a christmas market, call it a christmas market and not worry that a rental truck is going to mow down 20 people.

RandomName2

batgoat wrote: »

Can you explain why you're either choosing to lie about the pact or are so poorly informed you don't understand anything about it?

If it doesn't really matter, as it is not legally actionable, then where's the big deal? If it does actually matter, because the point is that it's symbolic of a political stance in relation to migration, then using not signing it to display that stance seems legitimate enough.

batgoat

sheesh wrote: »

Does anyone think that maybe the poles and Hungarians might be entitled not to sign it?

I mean it is their border. and if they want to control who comes and goes through it let them. If they can take the hit in the loss of foreign investment then let them off.
I think it would be brilliant if they decided that they didn't want 'foreign types' in their country 2 less EU countries to compete against in looking for FDI.

I think we should all just say 'we respect their brave decision'

The big problem is that both countries are becoming further and further far right. Eg the Polish government hijacked their judiciary last year which is an incredibly worrying sign for any EU nation. Hungary are currently under a pretty corrupt regime that have been controversial since they've come to power. Both countries have governments that are intent on blaming outsiders for all their problems.

Eg Viktor Orban is a huge proponent of conspiracies such as the George Soros nonsense. He's used this to attack NGOs and those who associate with them. Then you've got racist, anti-Migrant and anti-Muslim rhetoric being publicly funded. I find it genuinely terrifying that any EU member states are behaving like this. The pact would admittedly not change anything but the behaviour of Poland is still no small issue.

Redneck Culchie

It was not just the Poles and eastern European countries. Italy, USA, Israel, Russia, China, Chile, Australia and others didn't sign it. Are they all Nazi and fascist governments?

RandomName2

batgoat wrote: »

Both countries have governments that are intent on blaming outsiders for all their problems.

I'd like to see evidence of them actively scapegoating foreigners who are legally living in their countries. I'm not putting it past them, but I'm not accepting this at face value either (granted that both governments are anti-immigration).

Redneck Culchie

Just so people are aware part of the reason for the protest was this issue was basically blacklisted by media and there was no proper debate or discussion about it. There was 1 debate on the Tonight show which was a joke. Why was it not explained by media and politicians if there is nothing to worry about? Everything to do with immigration by this government is incredibly underhanded and undemocratic, from the lack of public consultation on asylum seeker hotels to this.

Sand

View wrote: »

Your example is nonsense. London should have been a hot bed of support for Brexit were it true. Instead of which it was the areas that had minimal levels of EU immigration that were the strong Brexit supporting one’s.

Why would you expect that? The English are already a minority in London. Brexit was a rejection of mass migration and globalisation by the English. They were rejecting London. I think its a mistaken reaction, but every serious analysis of the causes of Brexit comes back to a rejection of mass migration and globalisation.

The global pact is not there to facilitate further mass migration. Nowhere in it is there a statement that that is the pacts purpose. And given that Ireland has a very low population density, it is fairly ridiculous to argue that migration is a problem for Ireland.

It explicitly says it three times that the purpose of the pact is to facilitate safe, orderly and regular migration.

Eric Cartman

Redneck Culchie wrote: »

Just so people are aware part of the reason for the protest was this issue was basically blacklisted by media and there was no proper debate or discussion about it. There was 1 debate on the Tonight show which was a joke. Why was it not explained by media and politicians if there is nothing to worry about? Everything to do with immigration by this government is incredibly underhanded and undemocratic, from the lack of public consultation on asylum seeker hotels to this.

They wont dare ask because they know the answer they'd get. Sure we saw what happened when peter casey told Ireland he had concerns about the travellers, every single other one of them lied through their teeth. Its really easy to say you'd welcome all the muslim migration when you have a state car and live far away from them. Aslong as its only people in dublin 1 dealing with the knife and acid attacks then its grand sure.

batgoat

RandomName2 wrote: »

I'd like to see evidence of them actively scapegoating foreigners who are legally living in their countries. I'm not putting it past them, but I'm not accepting this at face value either (granted that both governments are anti-immigration).

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/hungary-under-fire-over-migration-as-college-halts-courses-for-refugees-1.3612998

Another, Terrorism conviction for throwing stones at the police....

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/09/hungary-upholds-terrorism-conviction-syrian-refugee-180920134344758.html


They're also going to the European Court of Justice for Actively violating asylum procedures this includes an attack on NGOs who are perfectly legal. In fact Hungary is breaking the law rather than anyone else....

The new legislation – so-called "Stop Soros" by the Hungarian authorities – criminalises any assistance offered by any person on behalf of national, international and non-governmental organisations to people wishing to apply for asylum or for a residence permit in Hungary.
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-18-4522_en.htm

Oh and here's Orban portraying them as invaders that will outnumber the locals... It's more like something you'd read on the likes of Stormfront.

"If we let tens of millions of migrants migrate to Europe from Africa and the Middle East over the next two decades, the western part of Europe is watching it all. Crusaders [...]. the youth of Western Europe will experience the day they will find themselves in the minority in their own country ,
https://www.lejdd.fr/Politique/wauquiez-nest-pas-gene-par-aucun-de-ces-propos-de-orban-sur-limmigration-3760298

Sand wrote: »

Why would you expect that? The English are already a minority in London. Brexit was a rejection of mass migration and globalisation by the English. They were rejecting London. I think its a mistaken reaction, but every serious analysis of the causes of Brexit comes back to a rejection of mass migration and globalisation.



It explicitly says it three times that the purpose of the pact is to facilitate safe, orderly and regular migration.

That's a lie, 63% of those living in London are British. Just because you're not white, does not prevent you from being British and it's not a new thing. Phil Lynott or Paul McGrath not Irish because they aren't white? See that's a pretty stupid piece of logic...

Sand

batgoat wrote: »

That's a lie, 63% of those living in London are British. Just because you're not white, does not prevent you from being British and it's not a new thing. Phil Lynott or Paul McGrath not Irish because they aren't white? See that's a pretty stupid piece of logic...

Who is claiming it does? I am noting that the English have become a minority in London, not the British.

You're in denial of a reality that the migrants themselves recognise.

72 percent of Bangladeshis, 63 percent of Pakistanis and 58 percent of Indians reported an exclusive “British” identity – in contrast, 72 percent of white Britons preferred to call themselves “English” rather than the more expansive “British” designation.

The vast majority of those migrant communities describe themselves as exclusively British, not English. Because they don't identify as English. Because they're not English. They are however British.

Recognising the English as a distinct group of people does not deny anyone their British identity. Refusing to recognise the English as a distinct group does deny them their English identity.

As for Paul McGrath and Phil Lynott both of them were of Irish descent (through their mothers), both were raised in Ireland, identified as being Irish and are widely accepted by the Irish as being Irish.

Nermal

Captain Obvious wrote: »

What is the issue with this English ethnicity being a minority in London?

The issue is that nobody voted for it.

Eric Cartman

Captain Obvious wrote: »

OK, let's just assume that English is a particular ethnicity separate from the nationality. What is the issue with this English ethnicity being a minority in London?

sure lets go boot all the black people out of Johannesburg again , theres no issue with them becoming a minority

batgoat

Sand wrote: »

Who is claiming it does? I am noting that the English have become a minority in London, not the British.

You're in denial of a reality that the migrants themselves recognise.



The vast majority of those migrant communities describe themselves as exclusively British, not English. Because they don't identify as English. Because they're not English. They are however British.

Recognising the English as a distinct group of people does not deny anyone their British identity. Refusing to recognise the English as a distinct group does deny them their English identity.

As for Paul McGrath and Phil Lynott both of them were of Irish descent (through their mothers), both were raised in Ireland, identified as being Irish and are widely accepted by the Irish as being Irish.

So you're annoyed to British people are identifying as British rather than English? That's a tad petty to say the least. That also still doesn't prove your point about London, 45% of London is White British, 63% of London is British. Plenty of those non white people are not first generation British btw regardless they're British.

In addition, London is a city more like New York, it has a long tradition of non British people working there including the Irish. It's the norm for a business city to end up pretty diverse. Regardless, your claim has not been proven in any way. It does have a higher immigrant population but immigrants don't outnumber the British in London....

hill16bhoy

batgoat wrote: »

The big problem is that both countries are becoming further and further far right. Eg the Polish government hijacked their judiciary last year which is an incredibly worrying sign for any EU nation. Hungary are currently under a pretty corrupt regime that have been controversial since they've come to power. Both countries have governments that are intent on blaming outsiders for all their problems.

Eg Viktor Orban is a huge proponent of conspiracies such as the George Soros nonsense. He's used this to attack NGOs and those who associate with them. Then you've got racist, anti-Migrant and anti-Muslim rhetoric being publicly funded. I find it genuinely terrifying that any EU member states are behaving like this. The pact would admittedly not change anything but the behaviour of Poland is still no small issue.

This is long, but well worth reading about Poland and Hungary's disastrous descent into authoritarianism, anti-semitism and racism, anti-intellectualism and state propaganda and disinformation.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/10/poland-polarization/568324/

hill16bhoy

batgoat wrote: »

So you're annoyed to British people are identifying as British rather than English? That's a tad petty to say the least. That also still doesn't prove your point about London, 45% of London is White British, 63% of London is British. Plenty of those non white people are not first generation British btw regardless they're British.

In addition, London is a city more like New York, it has a long tradition of non British people working there including the Irish. It's the norm for a business city to end up pretty diverse. Regardless, your claim has not been proven in any way. It does have a higher immigrant population but immigrants don't outnumber the British in London....

It's estimated that 50% of the population of Liverpool is of Irish descent.

I'd imagine it's even higher in Glasgow and the surrounding areas.

Liverpool and Glasgow have obviously been completely destroyed as a result of this.

batgoat

no.8 wrote: »

Yawn

You must tell the European Court of Justice of your fascinating conclusions.....

Redneck Culchie

hill16bhoy wrote: »

It's estimated that 50% of the population of Liverpool is of Irish descent.

I'd imagine it's even higher in Glasgow and the surrounding areas.

Liverpool and Glasgow have obviously been completely destroyed as a result of this.

2 grim places filled with socialist plastic Paddies.

Sand

batgoat wrote: »

So you're annoyed to British people are identifying as British rather than English? That's a tad petty to say the least. That also still doesn't prove your point about London, 45% of London is White British, 63% of London is British. Plenty of those non white people are not first generation British btw regardless they're British.

In addition, London is a city more like New York, it has a long tradition of non British people working there including the Irish. It's the norm for a business city to end up pretty diverse. Regardless, your claim has not been proven in any way. It does have a higher immigrant population but immigrants don't outnumber the British in London....

I don't care what they identify as. They don't identify as English, and the English are a minority in London. I am glad you now accept that has happened and we can move on.

hill16bhoy

Redneck Culchie wrote: »

2 grim places filled with socialist plastic Paddies.

Liverpool and Glasgow both have their fair share of problems, like anywhere, but if you've ever been to either, you'll know that the people there are by and large some of the warmest, funniest, most generous and open people you'll meet anywhere on this earth, with a real sense of pride in where they come from.

A sense of pride in where they come from, that, according to those who hate immigration, is impossible, given that so many of them are the product of immigration.

Yet that pride of place very much exists. In fact Liverpool, with its 50% Irish diaspora population, probably has a greater sense of identity than anywhere else in Britain.

hill16bhoy

no.8 wrote: »

Yawn

Well argued

hill16bhoy

Eric Cartman wrote: »

sure lets go boot all the black people out of Johannesburg again , theres no issue with them becoming a minority

Who "booted" anybody out of London?

The only thing that is responsible for making it difficult for people to live in London is the arch-free market ideology that you are such a fan of, which has meant property prices there have skyrocketed.

hill16bhoy

Sand wrote: »

I don't care what they identify as. They don't identify as English, and the English are a minority in London. I am glad you now accept that has happened and we can move on.

Posts like this show that people who are fanatically anti-immigration can never be reasoned with.

They can be proved wrong all day, and yet still cling to their dystopian fantasies in the face of reality.

batgoat

Sand wrote: »

I don't care what they identify as. They don't identify as English, and the English are a minority in London. I am glad you now accept that has happened and we can move on.

44% identify as "White British" so they don't even match your criteria. So there's no English people in London by your very own logic... It's a survey on ethnic backgrounds, it's not a survey on if they identify as British or English so nope, you've proven nothing...

VonZan

hill16bhoy wrote: »

Who "booted" anybody out of London?

The only thing that is responsible for making it difficult for people to live in London is the arch-free market ideology that you are such a fan of, which has meant property prices there have skyrocketed.

Property prices in London have gone up due to increasing costs of raw materials and cartels in construction, high standards whereby everything has to be certified by a professional at almost all levels of construction (a necessary evil IMO) and the huge demand on urban areas due to population growth and inward migration.

Also, financial institutions face huge barriers in repossessing properties in arrears and landlords in the UK face huge barriers to evict an incumbent Tennant in arrears. To describe the property market in London as Archfree is misleading.

Sand

There has been a point of disagreement on the thread as to if the UN Migration Pact has the aim of facilitating mass migration. Now you can read the pact yourself. But its worth noting that those who deny that is the purpose of the pact are also furiously denying there has been any demographic change in London over the past 50 years or so.

You can value their claims on the former by reference to their claims on the latter.

batgoat

Sand wrote: »

There has been a point of disagreement on the thread as to if the UN Migration Pact has the aim of facilitating mass migration. Now you can read the pact yourself. But its worth noting that those who deny that is the purpose of the pact are also furiously denying there has been any demographic change in London over the past 50 years or so.

You can value their claims on the former by reference to their claims on the latter.

Nope, I'm happily admitting there's a demographic change. However I'm saying your point is entirely wrong. You claimed the English are a minority, you haven't provided proof of that. The vast majority living in London are British, fact. It's largely irrelevant how many are from Scotland or Wales. Your issue is their ethnicity which comes across as a tad racist...