Company won't pay for software they paid for last year

DesperateDan

Sorry for the long post. I work for a startup the last 5 years. Bought everything myself - laptop, ms office, good mouse, phone etc. Started out pretty much unpaid for the first 2 years. We've since grown and have a good few staff (everyone is paid now!).

Anyway during the first 3 years I paid for my own Photoshop (13 quid a month). Last year during black friday I told the guys I wanted the full Adobe suite which was on sale to learn the other apps myself, and eventually make more and better stuff for them. It was 440 for the year and I said I would split it. One manager said it was a great idea and was happy to pay for it in full saying it was about time they were paying for things like that. I am a programmer though so the Adobe apps should not really be a priority in work for me so much.

Fast forward to this year. That manager is gone and I get billing notification failures from Adobe (his card was cancelled). I say I want to do the same deal again, I didn't get as much time with the products as I'd like, but they are super handy and hope to when I have spare time. One manager said fine let's do it. Other manager found out today and told me he had to cancel it because its coming up to Xmas there are too many costs to cover it. Deal was revoked and black friday sale is now over so its back up to €800.

Now over the last 3 years other staff have had phones and laptops (I don't mind because I bought mine before we started making money). They have expenses etc. The only thing ever bought for me was a 1k pc which sits on my desk in the office. I commute a lot so usually use my laptop just on trains.

I work my ass off for the company since the beginning, we have a product that needs to be done by next week and I've been pulling 14 hour days from home and intended to work all weekend on it as well but this has totally deflated me. The license is 440-85 in vat and I told them again I was more than happy to split it so it really shouldn't cost them more than 180. I was told they would rather give the money to someone as a bonus for example during Xmas, especially when Photoshop can be cracked for nothing. I tried to explain these are company running costs and there needs to be a budget for them which is totally separate for wages. And it's like 10 apps not just Photoshop.

The previous week I said we should get a coffee machine in the office so managed to convince them to get one today in the Amazon sales, I think this is feeding into the decision for no Adobe.

1 month ago I asked for a €36 programming book but the message was ignored.

So either the company finances are dire (they insist we are in a better financial position than last year and I believe them with some of our contracts). Or this manager's view of what should be a valid expense and what shouldn't is totally different to mine. I feel like it is at a stage now where nobody can ask for anything.

Am I crazy or are we both? And what should I do about it? If I dragged them aside next week there's nothing anyone can do now because the sale is over. It's pretty much a matter of principle now and has completely demotivated me.

Atlantic Dawn

Leave and go somewhere else.

cml387

I hear "they" and "you".
Do you have equity in this company, or are you just an employee?

DesperateDan

cml387 wrote: »

I hear "they" and "you".
Do you have equity in this company, or are you just an employee?

Small equity yeah. Not just that though I would find it very hard to leave, put too much into it! All the people are great and I enjoy the job. It's literally the first proper disagreement I've had in 5 years.

what does the company need the software for?

DesperateDan

[Deleted User] wrote: »

what does the company need the software for?

That's a good question and I think part of their decision making. I use it for creating art, branding, icons, animations etc.

We have since hired a full time artist that is intended to do a lot of that stuff now. It is probably considered a superfluous buy this year, but in my mind it's something I only want to make cool **** for our products.

At the end of the day it's only 200-300 quid and not like I'm asking for a new PS4 kinda thing.

cml387

It sounds to me as if you've lost perspective.
Are you earning money?
Is there going to be a big payout guaranteed at the end of this contract if completed?
It's easy to get carried away doing something you like and forgetting the fact that you need food on the table and have bills to pay.

hmmmm

look

read that back and ask yourself if you would actually approve this if it wasnt you asking for it.

because after reading yr original post and the specific follow up it really doesnt sound like this is in any way needed.

yr post is much more about lots of other stuff. perhaps you need to look at whats making you unhappy in the job and setting out some structured and honest thoughts about it for yourself because tbh...this doesnt seem to be about a software package

Dan, you either need the software or you don’t for business. If you need it, ask for it and get them to purchase the license/subscription and put it on your work machine.

If they don’t need it but you want it, buy it yourself and put it on your laptop. You can’t ‘split’ the costs. They pay it or you pay it. They’re running a business, not a co-op.

Same for the laptop stuff. If it’s yours, leave it at home and tell them you need a work laptop or else just work in the office, on the company supplied PC. It’s black and white. You need a work laptop or you don’t.

5 years in, it’s not a start up. They need to run the business and make the right decisions in doing so, you need to be an employee and understand that buying you software you may not need to put on a computer they don’t own is not the way these things work.

DesperateDan

JayZeus wrote: »

Dan, you either need the software or you don’t for business. If you need it, ask for it and get them to purchase the license/subscription and put it on your work machine.

Same for the laptop stuff. If it’s yours, leave it at home and tell them you need a work laptop or else just work in the office, on the company supplied PC. It’s black and white. You need a work laptop or you don’t.

They are paying me but not enough still.

Thanks I think you are right I'm just losing perspective. It's not black and white though for me, no I don't need the software for the company to function. Yes I believe strongly the company will benefit from me having it and having the drive to upskill myself with it. I guess it comes down to them not seeing that and me thinking they are delusional because of it

I wouldn't ask them to buy me a new laptop when I don't need one because it would be a waste of money and my current laptop would gather dust on a shelf. I just mention it because I believe it's the kind of thing that I could have kicked up a fuss about if I really wanted to (but have no desire to), same with the fact that everyone has a company phone but me.

gctest50

DesperateDan wrote: »

.........

I use it for creating art, branding, icons, animations etc.

You probably weren't any good since :

DesperateDan wrote: »

....

We have since hired a full time artist that ......

1) they are probably wondering how long it will actually take you to get the hint


2) they have an artist now, so if they buy you Photoshop, you'll just be annoying the artist they hired

Ursus Horribilis

I think you have lost perspective and that the company is taking you for granted. You're still "only" an employee, am I right? You don't own the business, you're not in management and you don't appear to be all familiar with its financial health. Going over and above the call of duty is grand until it's expected of you as the norm. You're not half as indispensable as you might think you are.

DesperateDan

gctest50 wrote: »

1) they are probably wondering how long it will actually take you to get the hint


2) they have an artist now, so if they buy you Photoshop, you'll just be annoying the artist they hired

Not true, I get on very well with the artist they hired and they were very reluctant to hire one to begin with. I've been given a much larger programming workload though which keeps actual money coming in the doors.

DesperateDan

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

I think you have lost perspective and that the company is taking you for granted. You're still "only" an employee, am I right? You don't own the business, you're not in management and you don't appear to be all familiar with its financial health. Going over and above the call of duty is grand until it's expected of you as the norm. You're not half as indispensable as you might think you are.

Only an employee (but one of only a handful with equity) but if we were large enough to have a corporate structure I would certainly be a manager. No they like to keep the state of the finances to themselves which I think is ridiculous but the whole world seems to work that way :pac:

Yes they would certainly be in a hell of a pickle if I left but they would figure it out.

goalscoringhero

DesperateDan wrote: »

They are paying me but not enough still.
...
same with the fact that everyone has a company phone but me.

Ask for a raise in explaining why you deserve one.

Ask for a company phone.

Stop mixing personal assets with company assets and expecting favours in return.

Reduce emotional attachment as it may lead to resentment.

Ursus Horribilis

DesperateDan wrote: »

Only an employee (but one of only a handful with equity) but if we were large enough to have a corporate structure I would certainly be a manager. No they like to keep the state of the finances to themselves which I think is ridiculous but the whole world seems to work that way :pac:

So why aren't you a manager? It sounds like it's the least you should be, structure or no structure.

Yes they would certainly be in a hell of a pickle if I left but they would figure it out.

They would and you might be sickened by the pay scale of the next guy.

DesperateDan

goalscoringhero wrote: »

Stop mixing personal assets with company assets and expecting favours in return.

I have been promised more money as soon as they can give it to me, most likely early next year.

'expecting favours' is interesting, you really see it as a favour I am asking of them? Bear in mind I would not use the software for personal use, and it would only improve our products. I would mostly use it in my spare time, true. But I really cannot mentally equivocate this to a favour.

DesperateDan

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

So why aren't you a manager? It sounds like it's the least you should be, structure or no structure.

I believe I am probably paid more than any employee, there is just not enough of us so I am too busy building my own stuff to be called a 'manager' of anyone.

Ursus Horribilis

You don't have to have staff to be a manager. For someone who has equity in this business, you seem to know very little about what's happening. Do they never furnish you with accounts? Do you ever attend meetings?

DesperateDan

No they don't, I don't think anything important enough to warrant a meeting of shareholders has actually happened yet tbh

Franz Von Peppercorn

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

So why aren't you a manager? It sounds like it's the least you should be, structure or no structure.


They would and you might be sickened by the pay scale of the next guy.

Managers don’t add a whole lot of value to small companies unless they are otherwise productive.

NSAman

So they are telling you that 200 euro is too much for you, that it should be given to someone else as a bonus?

You are claiming that the software is of use to the business? Yet they do not see this?

Either, you are being kicked out the door and you cannot see it, OR the business is broke.

If my employees worked like you did, I would purchase anything they wanted and I DO. Software, new computers, new servers, phones etc. If it is of benefit to the business, it is a business expense.

I do NOT want staff mixing personal equipment with business equipment either, it is bad practice.

Fussgangerzone

Ok, first point, I don't at all agree with the "maybe you don't need it" points a couple of people have made. If you're working on UIs, and anything that needs chopping up or even creating designs, the time you save having something like Adobe Creative Cloud at your disposal is worth more than the cost, several times over.

Second point: if you worked two years for free at the start of the company and now in year 6 you have to go with the begging bowl for Adobe CC or similar, either you're being taken for granted to a horrifying extent, the company is nearly f**ked or a mixture of both.

Do NOT work 14 hour days for a company where you aren't being shown the finances, including salaries of those above you (and they are certainly holding themselves above you regardless of your contribution).

And finally, am I right in guessing this is your first job in the industry? Even if you are still committed to the company, I advise you update your CV, look around the jobs market, and maybe interview somewhere. Get an idea of what you're missing by staying where you are. I'd be surprised if you're not being underpaid in the tens of thousands.

I've seen too many people starting out getting absolutely shafted working in going-nowhere so-called startups, and letting it happen for too long.

NSAman

NSAman wrote: »

If my employees worked like you did, I would purchase anything they wanted and I DO. Software, new computers, new servers, phones etc. If it is of benefit to the business, it is a business expense.

I do NOT want staff mixing personal equipment with business equipment either, it is bad practice.

Exacrtly.
There is Licensing for Education, Home, and business.

I would love to see the Asset register in this organisation.

If devices are managed like this, imagine how company/client data is managed.

Del2005

DesperateDan wrote: »

Not true, I get on very well with the artist they hired and they were very reluctant to hire one to begin with. I've been given a much larger programming workload though which keeps actual money coming in the doors.

They have you doing programming on a major project and last year bought you software that you didn't use. What benefit did the company get from the software last year that you didn't use that will improve this year if you are working 14 hour days on your own task?

As they said €400 is better as a bonus for an employee than sitting on your laptop because you are too busy to use it.

Blazer

It sounds dodgy as hell.
And for a company manager to claim that no point in paying for Adobe as it can be cracked for nothing means either they're complete unaware of the ****storm that would happen if they were caught running illegal software not to mention that potential security hazards of running cracked software or that the whole thing is a scam to wring as much money out of the company as they can for the foreseeable future.
As people have stated..you have equity in the company...you should be demanding to see all financial records.
Using personal equipment is a big no no. If anything got on your laptop which then infected company servers etc and led to intellectual data being stolen you'd be well and truly screwed.

Ursus Horribilis

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Managers don’t add a whole lot of value to small companies unless they are otherwise productive.

The reason I was getting at the management angle is that he has equity in the place. For someone with that sort of interest in this business, and who has put hinself out to the extent that he describes, he knows shockingly little. It's time to start asking questions and to start establishing boundaries.

I watched someone close to me almost trash themselves to death working for a small company. When he finally saw sense and left, his old job evolved into something that needed two people to replace him. In any business that's not yours, you're nearly always just a number. Once you leave you're quickly forgotten about.

AndrewJRenko

Blazer wrote: »

It sounds dodgy as hell.
And for a company manager to claim that no point in paying for Adobe as it can be cracked for nothing means either they're complete unaware of the ****storm that would happen if they were caught running illegal software not to mention that potential security hazards of running cracked software or that the whole thing is a scam to wring as much money out of the company as they can for the foreseeable future.
As people have stated..you have equity in the company...you should be demanding to see all financial records.
Using personal equipment is a big no no. If anything got on your laptop which then infected company servers etc and led to intellectual data being stolen you'd be well and truly screwed.

Being a shareholder doesn't entitle you to 'see all financial records'.



On the broader issue, I'm often surprised by the casual attitudes to breaching intellectual property rights of many people who earn their living from intellectual property.

SteM

DesperateDan wrote: »

....... I've been given a much larger programming workload though which keeps actual money coming in the doors.

That's why they don't want you noodling about with photoshop, let the artist do their job and you do yours. Sound like you have plenty to keep you going.

mugsymugsy

OP I feel your pain here but like others have said make a distinction between work and pleasure. Regarding the software you really should have someone managing renewals / licence keys and have a budget agreed with finance for each year. The company you work for appear to have a very laissez fair even reckless approach to this kind of thing

delly

First off, I would not focus on this specific issue so much. Either the company pay in full, or they don't, as I think you are well past the stage of having to self fund part of a company asset.

Next, have you a record of all the self funded items that you have paid for previously, have you had any return other than helping the company out when in startup mode? Do you record your unpaid overtime, is overtime paid in the company, does your contract note overtime, do you have an employment contract?

Regarding equity, is it a token amount or substantial? You talk of multiple managers, new managers, sounds like there is some structure in place and while you may not need to be a manager, your history with the company when people were not being paid, should have allowed you some discretion, but it appears that you are now just another employee, who's previous can do attitude has now been forgotten. It actually reminds me of social network movie, I recall the founders who were passed over once the company started blowing up.

Seth Brundle

DesperateDan wrote: »

Sorry for the long post. I work for a startup the last 5 years. Bought everything myself - laptop, ms office, good mouse, phone etc. Started out pretty much unpaid for the first 2 years.
...
I work my ass off for the company since the beginning, we have a product that needs to be done by next week and I've been pulling 14 hour days from home and intended to work all weekend on it as well but this has totally deflated me.

Why are you investing so much of yourself and your own resources into this company?
Leaving aside the fact that nobody will thank you for overworking, you'll burn yourself out. Do the others work 14 hour days and all weekend? Will you get paid twice as much for working twice as long?
Sounds like you've allowed yourself to take all this on. Life is too short for that!

DesperateDan

Seems this is slightly divisive. "Noodling about in Photoshop" I suspect is how my manager is picturing it. Regarding what I have used it for over the last 12 months there has been plenty trust me, mockups, icons, animations, a very large brand book I did in my spare time over about 70 hours to try and unify some of the developers and any third parties. Simple things like when I need to tweak or resize something having it at my disposal is just very handy.

But most of all I see it as learning useful software of my own volition to improve our products.

The reason I am so driven is to earn the company as much money as possible so I can start having disposable income. If it is interesting I have just been raised to 40k after telling them I am worth 60, but their recent investment round did fall through and there's other things going on which could cost a lot of money so I can wait I don't mind that aspect of it.

As soon as my laptop bites the dust they will be getting me a new one I have no doubt of that. It is not connected to our servers so no risk of any breaches etc.

The original manager who bought it last year and is now gone repeatedly told us he wants to ensure a culture of self-driven learning etc. He said if any of us needed anything: books, tutorials, software etc. Not to think twice about asking for it. If he was here now this wouldn't be an issue I believe.

To be honest I'm 50/50. For the sake of a 200 quid request it's not worth rocking any boats over this. But on the other hand I feel like yes if I have to beg for this and still be denied it then what's the f*cking point in going above the call of duty at all.

mightyreds

Will this equity make you rich? If not I fear you are being taken for a ride, 40k after 5 years as a software engineer and 3 unpaid

DesperateDan

mightyreds wrote: »

Will this equity make you rich? If not I fear you are being taken for a ride, 40k after 5 years as a software engineer and 3 unpaid

If the company doubles or triples year on year then I believe it will be worth a lot of money yes. This is 5 or 10 years down the line though.

It is more so about the autonomy of being a stake holder. I have decided this is important to the company and the 1 important manager who makes these decisions disagrees basically.

Ursus Horribilis

Is this your first job Dan?

dubrov

Unless the equity is substantial you are being taken for a ride.
If they can't give you a raise now, they should give you equity.
If the they refuse, you just need to accept that you are just a regular employee.

Squabbling over €200 is likely to mean they are in dire financial trouble.
Ask to seen the annual financial statement and any external auditor reports.

DesperateDan

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

Is this your first job Dan?

Yup.

dubrov

Mr.S wrote: »

In the grand scheme of things, it's not a lot - but everything ads up, especially in start-up land.

In fairness the company seems to be over 5 years old.
If it hasn't established itself in that time, it probably never will

eurokev

Dan, I've never heard of anybody being taken for such a ride.

You really really really really really need to leave that job. By the sounds of your dedication and work ethic any decent employer would love to have you and would not take advantage of your innocence like this crowd are.

For a guy that seems intelligent by your posts you really are coming across as incredibly stupid and naive. You will only realise how much a waste the last few years were when you leave, so please for your own sake do it sooner than rather than later.

Ursus Horribilis

I hope your faith in this job works out because I fear you are being taken for a ride. Why is it taking so long for this company to find its feet if it's on the go for 5 years now? Have you seen business plans?

You sound like the sort of person many companies would lovely to have on their books. You're clearly driven, conscientious, passionate and hard-working. Are you doing it for the right company though? That is the question. Call me a cynic but I've been around the block long enough to have seen good people get the shaft. There are lots of companies out there which will pay you better and respect you. This isn't the only job in the world, you know.

This isn't about a Photoshop licence and it never was. I get the impression that at best, you're being taken for granted. The more I read, the more I think I should be changing that to "being taken for a ride". I asked if this was your first job because you are showing all the signs of the naivety that often goes along with that. You're underselling yourself big time, you don't know how to draw the boundaries between home and work and they're riding roughshod over you. You'll only see what we can see in hindsight though.

NSAman

DesperateDan wrote: »

Yup.

Dan, stand up for yourself or leave .... NOW!!!!

This is your first job and it will NOT end well... take it from someone who runs a bunch of companies.

I love your enthusiasm. Obviously, your employers do not.

As a matter of interest, did you ever ask your manager who agreed, why he left??

In any good company, someone like you would be rewarded and given what they need to do their job, if they are quibbling over a measly 200 then my attitude is to forget it....life is too short and they do not value you.

I could give you a personal experience of same but I wont bore people on here... needless to say, I was in the same situation and left. Best decision I ever made.

beauf

DesperateDan wrote: »

....To be honest I'm 50/50. For the sake of a 200 quid request it's not worth rocking any boats over this. But on the other hand I feel like yes if I have to beg for this and still be denied it then what's the f*cking point in going above the call of duty at all.

You don't seem to be getting it. They are under paying you, and not looking after you. They have no respect for you.

If you can leave and get 10~15k more in another job, you'd be mad not to.

Personally I hate when programmers decide they can do graphics. Programmers of the same level get paid more than designers. So its a poor use of resources. Also the graphics are never as good as done by someone with an eye for it. Maybe your the exception. But you would be the first I've met. If you are only doing small bits here and there thats ok. But it not really something you should be doing. Unless its like a tiny company.

5ys is not a startup anymore IMO.

DesperateDan

I kind of fear you are right Mr./Ms. Horribilis, it really might not be about a poxy Adobe license :pac:

NSAman wrote: »

As a matter of interest, did you ever ask your manager who agreed, why he left??

He asked for a much higher salary, and they fell out He was running the finances so could see exactly what was coming in and going out so tbh that was a bit of a red flag.

DesperateDan

beauf wrote: »

You don't seem to be getting it. They are under paying you, and not looking after you. They have no respect for you.

If you can leave and get 10~15k more in another job, you'd be mad not to.

Personally I hate when programmers decide they can do graphics. Programmers of the same level get paid more than designers. So its a poor use of resources. Also the graphics are never as good as done by someone with an eye for it. Maybe your the exception. But you would be the first I've met. If you are only doing small bits here and there thats ok. But it not really something you should be doing. Unless its like a tiny company.

5ys is not a startup anymore IMO.

You are right I have never met another programmer that was good at art/design either. I consider myself a designer more so than a programmer I just happen to be good at both. I did a masters and under grad in games development and always worked on the art side in projects etc. I taught animation and 3d modelling part time for a year after college.

They do not consider themselves a start up any more. With my wages and the company size, I do.

I would not like to leave and work in another job for an extra 10k because I enjoy this job, the people, and it has the potential to make a lot of money.

It seems crazy to jack in a job over this and some maybe underlying issues about being under valued.

Ursus Horribilis

DesperateDan wrote: »

I kind of fear you are right Mr./Ms. Horribilis, it isn't really might not be about a poxy Adobe license :pac:

It's Ms Horribilis :pac:
No, the Adobe licence reads to be as just another example of how they're taking you for granted. That book they wouldn't buy, the phone they never offered you, the computer you bought yourself, all those many unpaid hours you've put in... Do you ever feel you've been left behind in this company while all these other people are being taken on? Are they on higher salaries, by any chance?

Clearly you don't want to leave and it doesn't have to be your first option. If you want to start somewhere, dial back on the unpaid time you've put in, look for a phone and make sure you get the same perks as your equals in the company. If that doesn't fly, then dust down your CV and move. I think you should leave anyway but that's what nearly 20 years of working does to you

NSAman

DesperateDan wrote: »

They do not consider themselves a start up any more. With my wages and the company size, I do.

I would not like to leave and work in another job for an extra 10k because I enjoy this job, the people, and it has the potential to make a lot of money.

It seems crazy to jack in a job over this and some maybe underlying issues about being under valued.

Perhaps it does seem crazy and money isn’t everything, but and it is a big but.. have an alternative. When the tough times come you will be first out the door.

eurokev

DesperateDan wrote:

He asked for a much higher salary, and they fell out He was running the finances so could see exactly what was coming in and going out so tbh that was a bit of a red flag.

DesperateDan wrote:

It seems crazy to jack in a job over this and some maybe underlying issues about being under valued.

Jesus Dan, you really have to cop on to yourself and get another job.

The_Honeybadger

Haven’t read the whole thread but it sounds like like a total cowboy operation OP, with really dreadful management. You say you like the job but how do you know you won’t like it somewhere else. I’ll bet the management aren’t paying for their own software etc. They are taking you for a fool and they don’t value your contribution. Programmers can name their price in this jobs market, get out of there ASAP would be my advice.

delly

I know graduates starting on mid 30s Dan, I really think you need to do a full appraisal of your situation. The company could go bust at any point in the next few years and your hardwork will be wasted. I guess there is a bigger plan in play that you don't have eyes on, and now that you confirm this is your first role, I think you've been taken for a sucker with some token equity.

TheAnalyst_

This company would drop you in two seconds if they had to. Look after yourself asap.