Company won't pay for software they paid for last year

Seth Brundle

DesperateDan wrote: »

Sorry for the long post. I work for a startup the last 5 years. Bought everything myself - laptop, ms office, good mouse, phone etc. Started out pretty much unpaid for the first 2 years.
...
I work my ass off for the company since the beginning, we have a product that needs to be done by next week and I've been pulling 14 hour days from home and intended to work all weekend on it as well but this has totally deflated me.

Why are you investing so much of yourself and your own resources into this company?
Leaving aside the fact that nobody will thank you for overworking, you'll burn yourself out. Do the others work 14 hour days and all weekend? Will you get paid twice as much for working twice as long?
Sounds like you've allowed yourself to take all this on. Life is too short for that!

DesperateDan

Seems this is slightly divisive. "Noodling about in Photoshop" I suspect is how my manager is picturing it. Regarding what I have used it for over the last 12 months there has been plenty trust me, mockups, icons, animations, a very large brand book I did in my spare time over about 70 hours to try and unify some of the developers and any third parties. Simple things like when I need to tweak or resize something having it at my disposal is just very handy.

But most of all I see it as learning useful software of my own volition to improve our products.

The reason I am so driven is to earn the company as much money as possible so I can start having disposable income. If it is interesting I have just been raised to 40k after telling them I am worth 60, but their recent investment round did fall through and there's other things going on which could cost a lot of money so I can wait I don't mind that aspect of it.

As soon as my laptop bites the dust they will be getting me a new one I have no doubt of that. It is not connected to our servers so no risk of any breaches etc.

The original manager who bought it last year and is now gone repeatedly told us he wants to ensure a culture of self-driven learning etc. He said if any of us needed anything: books, tutorials, software etc. Not to think twice about asking for it. If he was here now this wouldn't be an issue I believe.

To be honest I'm 50/50. For the sake of a 200 quid request it's not worth rocking any boats over this. But on the other hand I feel like yes if I have to beg for this and still be denied it then what's the f*cking point in going above the call of duty at all.

mightyreds

Will this equity make you rich? If not I fear you are being taken for a ride, 40k after 5 years as a software engineer and 3 unpaid

DesperateDan

mightyreds wrote: »

Will this equity make you rich? If not I fear you are being taken for a ride, 40k after 5 years as a software engineer and 3 unpaid

If the company doubles or triples year on year then I believe it will be worth a lot of money yes. This is 5 or 10 years down the line though.

It is more so about the autonomy of being a stake holder. I have decided this is important to the company and the 1 important manager who makes these decisions disagrees basically.

Ursus Horribilis

Is this your first job Dan?

dubrov

Unless the equity is substantial you are being taken for a ride.
If they can't give you a raise now, they should give you equity.
If the they refuse, you just need to accept that you are just a regular employee.

Squabbling over €200 is likely to mean they are in dire financial trouble.
Ask to seen the annual financial statement and any external auditor reports.

DesperateDan

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

Is this your first job Dan?

Yup.

dubrov

Mr.S wrote: »

In the grand scheme of things, it's not a lot - but everything ads up, especially in start-up land.

In fairness the company seems to be over 5 years old.
If it hasn't established itself in that time, it probably never will

eurokev

Dan, I've never heard of anybody being taken for such a ride.

You really really really really really need to leave that job. By the sounds of your dedication and work ethic any decent employer would love to have you and would not take advantage of your innocence like this crowd are.

For a guy that seems intelligent by your posts you really are coming across as incredibly stupid and naive. You will only realise how much a waste the last few years were when you leave, so please for your own sake do it sooner than rather than later.

Ursus Horribilis

I hope your faith in this job works out because I fear you are being taken for a ride. Why is it taking so long for this company to find its feet if it's on the go for 5 years now? Have you seen business plans?

You sound like the sort of person many companies would lovely to have on their books. You're clearly driven, conscientious, passionate and hard-working. Are you doing it for the right company though? That is the question. Call me a cynic but I've been around the block long enough to have seen good people get the shaft. There are lots of companies out there which will pay you better and respect you. This isn't the only job in the world, you know.

This isn't about a Photoshop licence and it never was. I get the impression that at best, you're being taken for granted. The more I read, the more I think I should be changing that to "being taken for a ride". I asked if this was your first job because you are showing all the signs of the naivety that often goes along with that. You're underselling yourself big time, you don't know how to draw the boundaries between home and work and they're riding roughshod over you. You'll only see what we can see in hindsight though.

NSAman

DesperateDan wrote: »

Yup.

Dan, stand up for yourself or leave .... NOW!!!!

This is your first job and it will NOT end well... take it from someone who runs a bunch of companies.

I love your enthusiasm. Obviously, your employers do not.

As a matter of interest, did you ever ask your manager who agreed, why he left??

In any good company, someone like you would be rewarded and given what they need to do their job, if they are quibbling over a measly 200 then my attitude is to forget it....life is too short and they do not value you.

I could give you a personal experience of same but I wont bore people on here... needless to say, I was in the same situation and left. Best decision I ever made.

beauf

DesperateDan wrote: »

....To be honest I'm 50/50. For the sake of a 200 quid request it's not worth rocking any boats over this. But on the other hand I feel like yes if I have to beg for this and still be denied it then what's the f*cking point in going above the call of duty at all.

You don't seem to be getting it. They are under paying you, and not looking after you. They have no respect for you.

If you can leave and get 10~15k more in another job, you'd be mad not to.

Personally I hate when programmers decide they can do graphics. Programmers of the same level get paid more than designers. So its a poor use of resources. Also the graphics are never as good as done by someone with an eye for it. Maybe your the exception. But you would be the first I've met. If you are only doing small bits here and there thats ok. But it not really something you should be doing. Unless its like a tiny company.

5ys is not a startup anymore IMO.

DesperateDan

I kind of fear you are right Mr./Ms. Horribilis, it really might not be about a poxy Adobe license :pac:

NSAman wrote: »

As a matter of interest, did you ever ask your manager who agreed, why he left??

He asked for a much higher salary, and they fell out He was running the finances so could see exactly what was coming in and going out so tbh that was a bit of a red flag.

DesperateDan

beauf wrote: »

You don't seem to be getting it. They are under paying you, and not looking after you. They have no respect for you.

If you can leave and get 10~15k more in another job, you'd be mad not to.

Personally I hate when programmers decide they can do graphics. Programmers of the same level get paid more than designers. So its a poor use of resources. Also the graphics are never as good as done by someone with an eye for it. Maybe your the exception. But you would be the first I've met. If you are only doing small bits here and there thats ok. But it not really something you should be doing. Unless its like a tiny company.

5ys is not a startup anymore IMO.

You are right I have never met another programmer that was good at art/design either. I consider myself a designer more so than a programmer I just happen to be good at both. I did a masters and under grad in games development and always worked on the art side in projects etc. I taught animation and 3d modelling part time for a year after college.

They do not consider themselves a start up any more. With my wages and the company size, I do.

I would not like to leave and work in another job for an extra 10k because I enjoy this job, the people, and it has the potential to make a lot of money.

It seems crazy to jack in a job over this and some maybe underlying issues about being under valued.

Ursus Horribilis

DesperateDan wrote: »

I kind of fear you are right Mr./Ms. Horribilis, it isn't really might not be about a poxy Adobe license :pac:

It's Ms Horribilis :pac:
No, the Adobe licence reads to be as just another example of how they're taking you for granted. That book they wouldn't buy, the phone they never offered you, the computer you bought yourself, all those many unpaid hours you've put in... Do you ever feel you've been left behind in this company while all these other people are being taken on? Are they on higher salaries, by any chance?

Clearly you don't want to leave and it doesn't have to be your first option. If you want to start somewhere, dial back on the unpaid time you've put in, look for a phone and make sure you get the same perks as your equals in the company. If that doesn't fly, then dust down your CV and move. I think you should leave anyway but that's what nearly 20 years of working does to you

NSAman

DesperateDan wrote: »

They do not consider themselves a start up any more. With my wages and the company size, I do.

I would not like to leave and work in another job for an extra 10k because I enjoy this job, the people, and it has the potential to make a lot of money.

It seems crazy to jack in a job over this and some maybe underlying issues about being under valued.

Perhaps it does seem crazy and money isn’t everything, but and it is a big but.. have an alternative. When the tough times come you will be first out the door.

eurokev

DesperateDan wrote:

He asked for a much higher salary, and they fell out He was running the finances so could see exactly what was coming in and going out so tbh that was a bit of a red flag.

DesperateDan wrote:

It seems crazy to jack in a job over this and some maybe underlying issues about being under valued.

Jesus Dan, you really have to cop on to yourself and get another job.

The_Honeybadger

Haven’t read the whole thread but it sounds like like a total cowboy operation OP, with really dreadful management. You say you like the job but how do you know you won’t like it somewhere else. I’ll bet the management aren’t paying for their own software etc. They are taking you for a fool and they don’t value your contribution. Programmers can name their price in this jobs market, get out of there ASAP would be my advice.

delly

I know graduates starting on mid 30s Dan, I really think you need to do a full appraisal of your situation. The company could go bust at any point in the next few years and your hardwork will be wasted. I guess there is a bigger plan in play that you don't have eyes on, and now that you confirm this is your first role, I think you've been taken for a sucker with some token equity.

TheAnalyst_

This company would drop you in two seconds if they had to. Look after yourself asap.

DesperateDan

Poll added

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

It's Ms Horribilis :pac:
No, the Adobe licence reads to be as just another example of how they're taking you for granted. That book they wouldn't buy, the phone they never offered you, the computer you bought yourself, all those many unpaid hours you've put in... Do you ever feel you've been left behind in this company while all these other people are being taken on? Are they on higher salaries, by any chance?

Left behind, maybe I certainly have less say in how things are operated but I think that just comes with the territory of adding more staff. Higher salaries - I do doubt it.

Blazer

DesperateDan wrote: »

but their recent investment round did fall through and there's other things going on which could cost a lot of money so I can wait I don't mind that aspect of it.

When investment rounds fall through it should be ringing large bells. From the sounds of what you've been describing about their culture its no surprise. Investors aren't fools...they've obviously identified an issue with your company and won't put their money into it.
You're being played for an absolute sucker.
40k a year for a programmer and designer?
You have a great work attitude but this company are taking complete advantage of your naivety,
Walk...and by walk I mean run.
Start looking at other positions in other companies and you will soon see what's so obvious to most of us on this thread.

babi-hrse

In any job it's easy to look at the walls and see how much you've put in and have a fear of the unknown. But your first employer will nearly always see you as the person who gave you the chance to find your feet and justify your wages with lack of experience. Once you do the role long enough it seems like you've just managed to adapt and work with it rather than picking up valuable skills. Anyone I know including myself once moved the new company did not see the inexperienced looking for a start person before them but rather someone who was through a cruicible and learned much more experience than college can teach wages and responsibility get added. You do it once then you realise it's jobs that need you not you them.

Wanderer2010

DesperateDan wrote: »

Yes they would certainly be in a hell of a pickle if I left but they would figure it out.

Im glad you included the second part of that sentence.

Ive seen everyone from company directors to managers to subject matter experts right down to floor staff, canteen staff and admin people all leave jobs or been left go and the company had to cope without them. It may be a small ego boost to hear from your superiors or your workmates "Oh this place would fall DOWN without you, you are amazing!" and such like. The hard truth is absolutely nobody is indispensable and the company, world and life goes on with or without you.
In most cases when your bosses try that crap with you, they are hoping you will feel good enough to do even more in the mistaken belief that your bosses admire and respect you.

Franz Von Peppercorn

DesperateDan wrote: »

You are right I have never met another programmer that was good at art/design either. I consider myself a designer more so than a programmer I just happen to be good at both. I did a masters and under grad in games development and always worked on the art side in projects etc. I taught animation and 3d modelling part time for a year after college.

They do not consider themselves a start up any more. With my wages and the company size, I do.

I would not like to leave and work in another job for an extra 10k because I enjoy this job, the people, and it has the potential to make a lot of money.

It seems crazy to jack in a job over this and some maybe underlying issues about being under valued.

Does it have the potential to make a lot of money? It’s 5 years in and they are squabbling over some software?

DesperateDan

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Does it have the potential to make a lot of money? It’s 5 years in and they are squabbling over some software?

Year on year the company has been doing better and better. Year 2 basically f*ck all happened, year 3 things exploded and we started hiring.

Ursus Horribilis

How do you know this for sure? You haven't seen their accounts. You don't know why the potential investor backed out. Your precious company could just as easily be existing on credit and about to go tits up.

rn

What's a "valid" expense seems to be completely open to opinion in your company op and both yourself and manager are wrong on different issues.

For example if you are doing work predominantly on your laptop, you need a work laptop if even to comply the companies data handling legal requirements (their data and ipr, their laptop that the have control/responsibility over). What your opinion is about waste or the inconvenience of two laptop is irrelevant here.

On other examples eg book and any software required for your role or future roles needs to be fully purchased by them and not installed on your personal hardware.

Theres a grey area around the software you propose to buy because it's really for personal convenience and competence development as opposed to a direct business need.

The endorsement of piracy is at illegal and unethical, which is a bad reflection on the people running that company...

That said it's great to have nice colleagues and a generally enjoyable place to work.

DesperateDan

rn wrote: »

Theres a grey area around the software you propose to buy because it's really for personal convenience and competence development as opposed to a direct business need

Yeah I think that's what it comes down to that's a good perspective. I mistakenly assumed I should be entitled to it after everything I have done for them and for how little I have asked for in return, but we disagree on it being a business need right now for me.

Well seeing as our poll suggests I should be out the ****ing door I think I will have a meeting tomorrow with them and basically outline how tbh I don't care about the software now - I can certainly see why it would be declined.

But I do care that we've inadvertently created a working culture where nobody can ask for anything and I want that to change or for them to be more honest about their finances. And it's enough to demotivate people completely.

I found out yesterday that a remote worker we have had to pay for his own PHP Storm license last year (this is software he writes code in 10 hours a day, for around €150 a year). I don't know if he flat out asked and was refused but he certainly dropped hints he needed it left right and center that they would have ignored. The managers perspective would be that he should just use VS Code (a free alternative). I can't really bring that up because I don't want them thinking I was moaning behind their back with him, but that really has annoyed me as well.

rn

The company must provide tools to do the job, but are within their rights to have a preferred tool and preferred supplier of tools.

With remote worker tools you are into another grey area. The company has the same legal obligation for productivity and H&S with remote workers as they do when they are located in the office. This is why remote working is a legal pain for companies, especially IT companies as people spend so long at their desks causing strains on various parts of the body and their eyes. Most IT companies spend a fortune on ergonomic furniture because they are forced to by law.

For remote working if the tool is specifically required for remote working, it maybe up to the employee to have to pony up as remote working is considered a benefit to the employee.

Currently it's an employees market, so IT companies are flexible with eworking. When the day comes of a contraction in IT, one of the first things to go will be remote working contracts.