Oil Prices

kieranwaldron

I would like to bring to the attention of the public that they are being ripped-off by fuel suppliers due to the current price of oil on world markets. On the 3.10.2018 WTI Oil topped out at $76.80 per barrel. Since then it has been consistently dropping at the rate of 5% on average per week, and has today reached a new low price of $50.58 per barrel. These figures represent a 34.14% decrease in the price top to bottom, which is a substantial fall.

Fuel retailers in their forecourts have not being passing on the savings gained by lower oil prices by way of lower prices for the cost of petrol or diesel. Home heating oil suppliers have not been passing on savings either as the price of kerosene has hardly moved at all over the past seven weeks.

I have come to the conclusion that Irish consumers are being ripped-off . Do you agree ?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Ach, there are many reasons the recent price drops have not yet reached the pumps. Prices are often agreed months in advance, and the crude price represents a small part of the overall petrol or diesel price post refining and transporting, taxes etc.

Davidth88

Jett Savory Hazelnut wrote:

Ach, there are many reasons the recent price drops have not yet reached the pumps. Prices are often agreed months in advance, and the crude price represents a small part of the overall petrol or diesel price post refining and transporting, taxes etc.

Hmmm. The impression we all see is the prices are quick enough to go up and much slower to drop.
If they were agreed months in advance then why did they shoot up in tandem with the old price over the last 3 months?
Cosy cartel .......

gctest50

Davidth88 wrote: »

...........


Cosy cartel .......

Go set up your own oil company then, everyone on boards will buy from you

Del2005

Davidth88 wrote: »

Hmmm. The impression we all see is the prices are quick enough to go up and much slower to drop.
If they were agreed months in advance then why did they shoot up in tandem with the old price over the last 3 months?
Cosy cartel .......

If its so cosy open a petrol station and you'll make a fortune.

Most of our fuel prices are taxes. The cost of crude has very little to do with the cost of petrol or diesel at the pump.

Davidth88

Goodness me....

Actually my father owned a petrol station for about 30 years in the UK...

Anyway riddle me this then.

Petrol prices were 10 c cheaper per litre in one north Kerry town ... at every forecourt...than a south Kerry town 40km away both towns having mutilple stations.Then a large fruit based retailer moves in to the south kerry town and now the prices match each other odd that ( they dropped )
How comes my local petrol station charges 3 to 4 c less than one 3 km away ( owned by the same guy) ... ohh and there is a fruit based retailer around the corner from the cheaper one.

Also I was paying about 20c less 4 months ago.... perhaps I missed all the tax increases or perhaps oil prices do have a bit of a bearing .....

I know the margin by and large it pretty poor at the forecourt... but I somehow think the distributor is making a few bob. I remember Total who were my father's distributor rode him rotten ...

Interesting enough the beeb is reporting today that the supermarkets are having a price war in the UK now.

L1011

Prices rise on crude rises as the retailers need to actually have money to replace the sold stock. Its a frighteningly low margin business, your "fruit based retailer" makes its money on food and shop items and has a 2.7% EBITDA even after all the food/shop income. Which is high for a fuel retailer!

Graniteville

Crude price only makes up 33c of the fuel price at the pump.
European fuel is refined from Brent crude which is $59

Dollar has strengthened to 1.13/€1 too recently and the refined product is traded in dollars.

Refining costs are about 8c a litre.

Then you have excise duty, carbon tax and vat.

Retail and distribution margin for the larger players is about 12c a litre - and a lot of costs come out of that.


Applegreens financials are online - fuel net profit is about 1%.
Shop/Cafe is where the real profits are.

Fann Linn

Irish motorist gets ripped off. What a surprise.

Graniteville

Fann Linn wrote: »

Irish motorist gets ripped off. What a surprise.

Can you explain how?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Fann Linn wrote: »

Irish motorist gets ripped off. What a surprise.

Cheaper in Ireland than many mainland European countries, so where's the specifically Irish rip off?

theguzman

Jett Savory Hazelnut wrote: »

Cheaper in Ireland than many mainland European countries, so where's the specifically Irish rip off?

Motor Tax, VRT, Exhorbitant Insurance spring to mind.

Atlantic Dawn

theguzman wrote: »

Motor Tax, VRT, Exhorbitant Insurance spring to mind.

And we also have crazy generous state pension that needs to be bankrolled by working folk who can't afford to live in the country.

kieranwaldron

Graniteville wrote: »

Crude price only makes up 33c of the fuel price at the pump.
European fuel is refined from Brent crude which is $59

Dollar has strengthened to 1.13/€1 too recently and the refined product is traded in dollars.
Refining costs are about 8c a litre.
Then you have excise duty, carbon tax and vat.
Retail and distribution margin for the larger players is about 12c a litre - and a lot of costs come out of that.
Applegreens financials are online - fuel net profit is about 1%.
Shop/Cafe is where the real profits are.

Based on your estimate that the oil price makes up 33% of the fuel price, then petrol should have fallen by at least 17 cents over the past seven weeks. In my area here in KK, my local fuel retailer was charging 1.48 euros for petrol a couple of months ago. 1.48 x 33% x 35% (drop in the oil price) = 0.17. Therefore the price should have at least fallen by 17 cents, or even 19 cents when you consider that VAT is added to the price as a percentage.


When you consider that kerosene for central heating has a closer link to the oil price than petrol or diesel, then it is easy to see that my original contention that Irish consumers are being ripped off is right.
-

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

theguzman wrote: »

Motor Tax, VRT, Exhorbitant Insurance spring to mind.

But we're discussing Oil Prices.

whomitconcerns

Graniteville wrote: »

Can you explain how?

You think the UK is cheaper??? Maybe to buy a car... But that's about it.

Graniteville

kieranwaldron wrote: »

Based on your estimate that the oil price makes up 33% of the fuel price, then petrol should have fallen by at least 17 cents over the past seven weeks. In my area here in KK, my local fuel retailer was charging 1.48 euros for petrol a couple of months ago. 1.48 x 33% x 35% (drop in the oil price) = 0.17. Therefore the price should have at least fallen by 17 cents, or even 19 cents when you consider that VAT is added to the price as a percentage.


When you consider that kerosene for central heating has a closer link to the oil price than petrol or diesel, then it is easy to see that my original contention that Irish consumers are being ripped off is right.
-

May I suggest you read my post again and understand the difference between 33c or lets put another way €0.33c and what you then used 33% (percent).
33c of €1.48c is about 21%.

A barrel of oil has 159 litres. So $59 / 159 / 1.13(rate of exchange) = 32.8c for a litre of crude oil (all this is available on google search)


Also understand that whilst Brent oil did go to $80 and has dropped to $59, $9 of that drop came in the last 3 to 4 days and that up to 10 days ago Brent oil was still over $72. So expect some good drops in the next couple of weeks.

Then you need to understand the refining process and costs involved there and then take currency changes into account, though currency change has been small recently. But it affects the delivered, refined price and not just the raw material cost

I use fuel cards, so get advance notice of prices changes. Price has dropped by 3c for next week.

Maybe ask McDonalds why they charge €4 for a 1/4 pounder. Sure the meat and raw material for the bun costs about 40c!

And also, there is no barrier to anyone entering the fuel retail market. Once you have the right premises, safety training and the funds in place, you can do a deal with a distributor and trade away like any type of retail outlet. But if you don't have a good food/coffee business you will not have a very profitable business as fuel alone will not sustain most sites.

kieranwaldron

I have reported the subject of this thread to two TD's and I therefore expect to see questions asked in the Dail about it this week.

Graniteville

kieranwaldron wrote: »

I have reported the subject of this thread to two TD's and I therefore expect to see questions asked in the Dail about it this week.

Ffs, why not do a little very very basic research into fuel pricing yourself and stop wasting people's time.

ALL information right down to the last cent of cost is available.

The time wasting tds who did a similar "expose" a few years ago had egg on their faces when they realized that all the facts stacked up.

If anything, retail fuel pricing is the most transparent retail pricing of any product.

L1011

kieranwaldron wrote: »

I have reported the subject of this thread to two TD's and I therefore expect to see questions asked in the Dail about it this week.

You won't. You probably won't even get an answer

Your maths and assumptions are wrong.

dudara

Moved to the Rip Off Ireland forum

(God, I haven’t said that in years!)

dudara

kieranwaldron

L1011 wrote: »

You won't. You probably won't even get an answer

Your maths and assumptions are wrong.

I got replies from two TD's I made contact with. One was J.P. Phelan here in Kilkenny where I live. The other was Pearse Doherty of Sinn Fein.

Graniteville

kieranwaldron wrote: »

I got replies from two TD's I made contact with. One was J.P. Phelan here in Kilkenny where I live. The other was Pearse Doherty of Sinn Fein.

As I said, it would be easier for you to work out all the costs yourself and you'll find you're pissing against the wind.

BTW, you got replies from some secretary and they think it will get a vote.

Fuel is one product where an ordinary person with internet access can find out the entire breakdown almost to the cent.

Try doing that on any other consumer product.

BTW, according to Platts, a litre of petrol will cost you just over 44c on the Dutch commodity market.

Now add your duties, carbon tax, distribution and vat to that.

Graniteville

another near 3c drop for next week bringing diesel price under 1.35 for most garages

ohnonotgmail

Graniteville wrote: »

another near 3c drop for next week bringing diesel price under 1.35 for most garages

i paid 1.34 today

WishUWereHere

Graniteville wrote: »

another near 3c drop for next week bringing diesel price under 1.35 for most garages

Good news if true. What's Your source? I have been searching for confirmation on what You say, but can find nothing. You must be a fly on a ceiling at some cartel meeting to have got this info:-)

uck51js9zml2yt

Wages are significantly lower in Slovakia. Fuel costs are the same as here. Now whose getting ripped off?

WishUWereHere

Jamir Nutritious Graph wrote: »

Wages are significantly lower in Slovakia. Fuel costs are the same as here. Now whose getting ripped off?

Funny You mention that: I was in Lisbon 3 weeks ago. Also lower wages there, yet one could comfortably dine out for 3 for €40 ( just an example of costs ). But, the diesel price was €1.60/litre.

AsYou mention, just who is getting ripped off?

Fann Linn

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

i paid 1.34 today

I paid that for petrol yesterday in Roscommon. 1.30 for diesel.

L1011

WishUWereHere wrote: »

Good news if true. What's Your source? I have been searching for confirmation on what You say, but can find nothing. You must be a fly on a ceiling at some cartel meeting to have got this info:-)

They state they have a fuel card and get advanced notice of the fuel card price for the week.

kieranwaldron

Kerosene prices have only dropped 4 or 5 cents since September when it should be down more than 15 cents to reflect the more than 30% drop in oil prices over the past two months.

Plumbthedepths

kieranwaldron wrote:

Kerosene prices have only dropped 4 or 5 cents since September when it should be down more than 15 cents to reflect the more than 30% drop in oil prices over the past two months.

67 cent a litre for Kerosene in Casey's in Roscommon town. Diesel at 129.9. Not sure about petrol as I don't buy it.

Graniteville

kieranwaldron wrote: »

Kerosene prices have only dropped 4 or 5 cents since September when it should be down more than 15 cents to reflect the more than 30% drop in oil prices over the past two months.

Ffs, try putting unrefined crude oil into your heating system and also arrange delivery from the oil field yourself.

You sound like a very bitter old man that has a personal gripe against fuel suppliers.

As above, do a little research and you will have ALL your answers. Every scintilla of information about fuel pricing is available online if you are that bothered

But maybe verifiable facts won't suit your agenda.

BTW, here's a 3month price trend
https://www.cheapestoil.co.uk/articles/trend

Sorry for bursting your conspiracy theory.

kieranwaldron

Graniteville wrote: »

Ffs, try putting unrefined crude oil into your heating system and also arrange delivery from the oil field yourself.

You sound like a very bitter old man that has a personal gripe against fuel suppliers.

As above, do a little research and you will have ALL your answers. Every scintilla of information about fuel pricing is available online if you are that bothered

But maybe verifiable facts won't suit your agenda.

BTW, here's a 3month price trend
https://www.cheapestoil.co.uk/articles/trend

Sorry for bursting your conspiracy theory.

I am not necessarily blaming fuel retailers but somewhere along the line from extraction to consumption savings due to cheaper oil prices are not being passed on.

Graniteville

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kieranwaldron wrote: »

I am not necessarily blaming fuel retailers but somewhere along the line from extraction to consumption savings due to cheaper oil prices are not being passed on.

I have given you the information, go figure it out for yourself.

five minutes on google and you will have all your answers.

try understanding the different parts of the pricing before making ridiculous comments. And I have zero interests in the fuel business in any way shape or form except as a mid range user (we have 14 vehicles and use about 1000 litres of diesel a week), but rather than moan about it, i went and found out how it was calculated and verified all the information.

It was rather simple - in fact it was very simple to do.

WishUWereHere

kieranwaldron wrote: »

I am not necessarily blaming fuel retailers but somewhere along the line from extraction to consumption savings due to cheaper oil prices are not being passed on.

FYI Kieran, I heard on the BBC this morning Brent Crude just went up $5/barrell. So I would suspect serious fluctuations in the offing.

Edit: My apologies, I should have said the price rose 5%/barrell.

gctest50

kieranwaldron wrote: »

I am not necessarily blaming fuel retailers but somewhere along the line from extraction to consumption savings due to cheaper oil prices are not being passed on.

Because Christmas and toys to be paid for :

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057921160



Don't be a grinch and feel proud you are supporting that when you are filling up your veeehicle

L1011

gctest50 wrote: »

Because Christmas and toys to be paid for :

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057921160



Don't be a grinch and feel proud you are supporting that when you are filling up your veeehicle

This is of no relevance to retailer/distributor margins and timing issues, which is what is at play in retail price variations vis-a-vis crude prices.

glen123

In Limerick City, the cheapest petrol I found is 142.9 but mainly 147.9 across CircleK petrol stations.

If one drives 20+km towards Cork (Croom, Charleville) - at least 3 petrol stations in a row sell petrol at 138.9-139.9 for nearly 2 weeks now.

Not sure why larger retailers in the City cannot do the same.

gctest50

Rates and theft higher in the city ?



If your property has been valued at 2000000 by the Valuation Office then your Commercial Rates bill for 2018 will be:

2000000 X 0.2627 (ARV for 2018) = €525400

glen123

gctest50 wrote: »

Rates and theft higher in the city ?



If your property has been valued at 2000000 by the Valuation Office then your Commercial Rates bill for 2018 will be:

2000000 X 0.2627 (ARV for 2018) = €525400

Possibly. But this difference in prices is recent. More than 2 weeks ago both sets of petrol stations had similar prices with no more than 1-2 cent difference.

NIMAN

Petrol and diesel now 133.9 and 132.9 respectively now around my neck of woods.

L1011

Applegreen were obviously holding on to a little of the potential cut as they're plugging a 5c drop today

Plumbthedepths

Fuel prices in my local Circle k have been 129.7 Diesel and 134.7 Petrol for the last 2 weeks.

WishUWereHere

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Fuel prices in my local Circle k have been 129.7 Diesel and 134.7 Petrol for the last 2 weeks.

What area is this can I ask?? I have a commercial, and always buy my diesel at a Circle K in Newbridge...was €1.35/l last night, though with Applegreen directly across the road selling for 5c/L less, I think Circle K will also have to drop.

Nothing like competition"

Plumbthedepths

WishUWereHere wrote:

What area is this can I ask?? I have a commercial, and always buy my diesel at a Circle K in Newbridge...was €1.35/l last night, though with Applegreen directly across the road selling for 5c/L less, I think Circle K will also have to drop.

Might be bit of a drive for you. Casey's Roscommon town.

Graniteville

L1011 wrote: »

Applegreen were obviously holding on to a little of the potential cut as they're plugging a 5c drop today

They dropped prices last Christmas too but didn't shout about it.

It's a big driving season here, and with many cars carrying passengers, they probably hope for a big increase in food/coffee sales.

One cup of coffee would pay for the 5c discount on 40 litres of fuel.

Clever marketing.

BTW, fuel card price has dropped again for next week, but just by 1,4c

WishUWereHere

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Might be bit of a drive for you. Casey's Roscommon town.

LOL, Yes I was reading back and discovered You are in Roscommon. Thanks for the feedback in any case - much appreciated.

Odd coincidence or what, but the Circle K in Newbridge is also a Casey's.

kieranwaldron

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Fuel prices in my local Circle k have been 129.7 Diesel and 134.7 Petrol for the last 2 weeks.

The prices you have reported are approaching a fair deal for motorists. But just look at what Circle K are charging in Limerick City, as reported by glen 123 above. Rip-off prices ! That it why I opened this thread in the first instance.

kieranwaldron

The lowest prices I have seen recently were at the Black Quarry service station in Kilkenny where Applegreen were charging 130.7 for unleaded and 123.7 for diesel. Meanwhile, the two major oils have continued to fall on world markets.

WishUWereHere

kieranwaldron wrote: »

The lowest prices I have seen recently were at the Black Quarry service station in Kilkenny where Applegreen were charging 130.7 for unleaded and 123.7 for diesel. Meanwhile, the two major oils have continued to fall on world markets.

Got diesel in the Circle K in Kill SB last night. Using the topaz card I got diesel for 121.9:)