Inconsistent and biased moderation in the soccer forum

Liam McPoyle

This has been an issue that has been bugging me for quite some time. There is no point in starting a feedback thread as it would just become a free for all and I believe posts are pre-moderated in help desk. There is a very clear bias in moderation practice in the soccer forum, mainly towards supporters of Manchester United and carried out by moderator thanks for the fish. This mod has consistently singled out and carded Manchester United fans while fans of other teams have had no action taken against them for the exact same kind of “offences”. The moderator is anything but moderate, has shown clear and consistent bias towards MU fans and as such, should not be allowed to continue to moderate. Accusations of bias have cropped up before across various fora and the usual response is a request for proof. Well here are three examples of MU fans been carded and comparable examples of posts that were not.

This post by me was carded.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108239718&postcount=9655

This one by another user was not

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108600727&postcount=9792
or this

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108532425&postcount=8525

or this

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108398642&postcount=1339

According to tftf “mangling a name for comedic effect” was against the rules. I brought up the use of “Baby Keith” but seemingly “mangling names for comedic effect” is ok if you aren’t the one doing the mangling. Talk about making the crime fit the punishment.

The latter one is uncivil – “back to your playpen” and is borderline back seat moderation as well as name mangling yet nothing was done. I was told previously to report posts and I reported at least two of the above but no action was taken.

“Manc” has long been an insult levelled at fans of MU. Any soccer forum mod not aware of this is not fit for purpose.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=manc

I can categorically state that if I or another United fan posted “Dipperpool” or “Liverpoo” or similar then cards would be dished out but its ok to deride MU fans. Its also quite coincidental that the use of the term that goes unactioned is used by fans of LFC, the same club that tftf supports.

The below post by me was carded by tft

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=106724416&postcount=6811

This one by another user was not.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108404622&postcount=1308

I appealed the card, Beasty reviewed it, agreed that there was no insult / malice / insult behind the post but still declined to rescind it. So other posters can mangle or changes names around of individuals that are connected with the team they support but I cant, or at least when it comes to tftf I cant. Again, its clear bias / victimisation of me by tftf.

The user FatherTed1969 was carded by fish for a spelling error, literally a spelling error. The offence?

Spelling “Benitez” as “Bemitez”. This was later rescinded on appeal but the fact it was carded in the first instance is a major concern.

Im not expecting to be allowed to say whatever I want. I got a couple of cards after the champions league final in May when I acted the bollox. I didn’t appeal them as they were warranted. Nor do I want a nanny state where by every little thing is carded. Discretion should absolutely apply. Cmod Steve PM’d me after I reported the “Fraudiola” post above to ask my reasoning behind the report. Below is part of my response to him.

I will state for the record that I don't think the poster deserves to be carded as anyone that spends time in the SF knows they are a City fan and mod discretion should be applied but t4tf has taken it upon themselves to piss all over that discretion by carding me and other United fans for the most minor of transgressions so it is only fair that the same level of moderation should apply to everyone.

I reported the post because I suspected mod discretion would be applied and no card would be given however posts by me FOR THE EXACT SAME THING have been upheld at admin level. Tftf has been modding the soccer forum for up on a decade at this stage so Im sure is viewed as something as an “smod” but it begs the question, why is he still modding it? All the more contentious forums such as soccer, after hours or politics have a relatively high turnover of mods, given the nature of the fora and how busy they are but tftf has clutched the reigns of power for that long in the SF. Why is that I wonder? A sense of civic duty? Personally I don’t believe that for a second. He is imo there because he can card fans of United, not because he should.

In general the forum is well modded and all other mods operate a more hands off approach which is the way it should be however this mod has a major issue with me and with MU fans in general. He has clearly used his position of power to take out his own frustrations on others and he is not fit for purpose when it comes to the soccer forum as he is anything but moderate.

I have reported posts that by the letter of the charter, as it has been applied to me, should be carded but in the main no action has been taken. I realise Im now raising my head above the parapet however I absolutely believe I am being deliberately targeted by tftf on the back of some posts I reported around 12 months ago. They won’t be hard to find in the reported posts forum as up until recently I rarely reported anything. The posts related to a particular matter in a particular thread concerning in the main, a particular users conduct. I have since been advised that tftf and this user are friends in the real world so it makes perfect sense that since I reported those posts I have come under his watchful gaze and at any opportunity he has carded me. I don’t really believe in coincidences. I am happy to provide additional details via PM.

Liam McPoyle

Nearly a week and no response, not even an acknowledgement via pm.

Is that the way Boards is now?

A user raises a genuine concern, provides irrefutable proof that what they are saying is true but the matter is simply ignored.

There is an annual feedback thread in the soccer forum that is as useful as a chocolate fireguard. People raise issues, a bit of hand wringing goes on but nothing ever changes and the thread is forgotten and swept under the carpet.

Is it the same expectation for this thread?

Ignore it and hope it goes away?

Boards.ie: Mark

Hi Business Cat,

I've been looking into the issues raised in this thread, but technical issues also cropped up over the past week. I had hoped to be able to respond sooner.

First off, I would not rely on Urban Dictionary for definitions. It is equally mean towards "Geordie", "Manchester United", or indeed "Liverpool fans" and I think you would agree that it would be impossible to ban those terms. Secondly, Manc is used quite commonly within Manchester. It is used by the Oxford Dictionary, Mancunian publications, and indeed other sources.

On the subject of your card, Beasty looked at it at the time and outlined reasons why it shouldn't be rescinded, including the fact that calling a French player "Frogba" veers straight into derogatory territory. Where the "Fraudiola" comment differs is that there's no malice in it in this instance and it is not derogatory looking at tone, response to meme, etc.

Many decisions within forums, including the Soccer forum, are not taken by one Mod in isolation. They work with one another, look for input and advice, and hash out various decisions. While ultimately action may be taken by one Mod, it does not necessarily mean that they came to that conclusion alone.

I see no reason to suspect that one Mod is on a power trip and in a position solely to card fans of another team. Situations like that would be highlighted, investigated, and found to be accurate fairly quickly, particularly in a busy forum and one in which Mod actions are going to be scrutinised. Yes, there can be high turnover in forums across Boards.ie due to their nature, popularity, etc., but Mods have their own personal and professional situations that they have to consider; what applies to one Mod doesn't necessarily apply to another.

I would advise to continue reporting posts where applicable and when concerns arise, the CMod team is in a position to investigate further.

Liam McPoyle

Mark, thanks for responding.

With all due respect, pointing out a word has another meaning is no defense whatsoever and is borderline laughable. Dipper for example has other meanings however if it was used by a United fan while discussing Liverpool it invariably is meant as an insult. The exact same is the case when "Manc" is used by Liverpool fans when discussing United. It is meant as a barb and is therefore against the charter. Like I said above, Ive no doubt that if I or another United fan used the word "dipper" when discussing LFC cards would have been given and the defense of "it has other meanings" would be laughed out of the DRP.

The card I got for "Frogba" contained the message "mangling a name for comedic effect is against the forum charter". When I pointed out other instances of name mangling it was then insinuated that there was a angle relating to the players nationality which is why the card was warranted. I had been very critical of that particular player, and not once, NOT ONCE, had i ever resorted to racist insults or name calling so to basically say thats what I was doing is offensive to me. I have no doubt in my mind that my post had been seen by other mods before fish got to it and it was not deemed card worthy but as soon as a chance presents itself he carded me and the "crime" was made to fit the punishment ie, saying there was a racist motivation behind the post.

But fine, take the bigot ball and run with it as a defense for the mod if you so wish.

I am led to ask, what about the post I got carded for for saying "Adolf Mourinho". There are no ambiguities there that its any different to "Fraudiola" so why was my post carded and upheld but the other post was not?

If a mod is going to use literal application of the charter when it comes to one user or user base but no other user or user base has the same application used for them, then that is clear bias.

I am highlighting this as an issue.

I know for a fact that I am not the first person to raise concerns over this mod and their conduct so it begs the question, how many users need to complain before anyone pays attention?

Posts in the United thread have fallen off a cliff since the summer, why is that? I'm sure the first thing certain people will say is because things have not been going well on field. No doubt that is true for some posters but the team have not exactly been pulling up trees for the last 5 years yet it has consistently been the busiest thread in the forum for that period of time.

All I want is fair and equal application of the rules of the forum. At the moment that simply does not happen. Reporting posts has at this stage become a pointless exercise because Id estimate that in near 90% nothing gets done. Certain people are allowed to continue on posting what ever they want without fear of censure while others are nearly looking over their shoulder in case they catch the attention of certain parties.

Since starting this thread I have received a number of PM's of support and agreement but yet again, when moderation is called into question, its a case of everyone is out of step but our Johnny.

Beasty

I am just seeing this thread now. Why? I was at the match on Saturday and was supposed to be back at Old Trafford tonight but have had to get an early ferry back due to a family emergency

I will look in more detail at the specifics when I get a chance. Your use of the very clearly offensive term Frogba was dealt with in DRP. It was though dealt with to my total satisfaction

Unfortunately I have seen plenty of evidence of United fans looking for things to get offended by. I lived in Manchester for over quarter of a century and no one ever considered the term "manc" offensive but find it incredible how many United fans around here want to be offended by it. It's no different than calling someone from Liverpool "scouse" but as I say people are looking to take offence (and yes there was similar attitudes adopted by some Liverpool fans a year or so ago when their team was not delivering to hopes and expectations)

I'm currently on mobile and have a sick wife to deal with when I get home, but rest assured I will review every point made above, but equally I will do so in the knowledge of what has been happening in the real world as well as the Soccer forum.

Will I Am Not

The same mod carded me for using the word ‘snowflakes’ in reference to some of the sensitive boards fans of the club he supports. Not directed at anyone in particular. I was told if I wanted to discuss it further with him I could which tells me he knew it was petty.
I pointed him to a post the previous week that literally called me a snowflake and he didn’t seem interested.

Calling someone a ‘snowflake’ is considered a cardable offence since then but there was nothing in the charter about it beforehand. Rules seem to be just made up as seen fit without telling the users. I barely post there at all anymore purely on the back of the moderation/lack of moderation. United fans seem to get a raw deal and I don’t think it’s a coincidence that so many United supporting mods have stepped down over the years.

Beasty

Very well. Let me ask questions of both of you:

Do you consider the use of the term "frog" in connection with a Frenchman offensive?

Do you consider the use of the term "snowflake" to describe someone offensive?

Beasty

One further point. You can direct any ire in connection with the term "manc" at me. The mods asked the question and I gave the response I set out above. Please do not blame them for following the advice of an Admin who has had a Season ticket at OT for over 35 years.

Liam McPoyle

Beasty wrote: »

Very well. Let me ask questions of both of you:

Do you consider the use of the term "frog" in connection with a Frenchman offensive?

Do you consider the use of the term "snowflake" to describe someone offensive?

Like everything B, it's all about perception. I didn't call him a frog, it's merely a word that rhymes with his surname. You and others have decided that it was ment as an insult based on his nationality, I can only tell you that it was in no way ment that way but it's moot, you have made your mind up so there is no point discussing it further. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

It does however lead on to my second query relating to me saying Adolf Mourinho and the city fan saying Fraudiola.

One was carded and upheld by you.

The other was not.

Why?

As far as I see it there is zero difference between the posts yet one is sanction worthy.

Liam McPoyle

Beasty wrote: »

One further point. You can direct any ire in connection with the term "manc" at me. The mods asked the question and I gave the response I set out above. Please do not blame them for following the advice of an Admin who has had a Season ticket at OT for over 35 years.

Fwiw as far as I've ever seen the term or heard it used it's always been as an insult. If you say it's a commonly used term that does not have any negative connotations then I'll take you at your word.

Will I Am Not

Beasty wrote: »

Very well. Let me ask questions of both of you:

Do you consider the use of the term "frog" in connection with a Frenchman offensive?

Do you consider the use of the term "snowflake" to describe someone offensive?

I’m not making the rules, if the mods consider a term to be offensive that’s their prerogative. This thread is about inconsistent and biased moderation. I didn’t personally call anyone a snowflake but got carded, someone personally called me a snowflake and didn’t.
If a word is suddenly off the table do you not think we should be informed?
I remember the same thing happened another United fan when ‘Slippy G’ (a phrase that was being used regularly) was all of a sudden a cardable offence without anyone being informed.

Liam McPoyle

Beasty wrote: »

Unfortunately I have seen plenty of evidence of United fans looking for things to get offended by.

Just on this comment.

It's a pretty shytty thing for an admin to say. You can only be referring to reported posts so what you are essentially saying is that you have already made your mind up here and that I started this thread to be a nuisance. There is little point in going further.

Admins are supposed to retain impartiality but it's abundantly clear that the closed shop attitude towards moderation that has been around Boards as long as I have been is alive and well.

Like I said, everyone is out of step but our Johnny.

Beasty

I had seen discussion in the mods forum and contributed to that discussion. I have also been involved in discussions with the relevant CMods

Yes I've made my mind up on all this "manc" drama, because that's exactly what it is. Are you a manc? Do you really take offence at the term? Or is it a matter (and I've seen evidence of this over many years as both CMod for Sport and Admin), of looking to find offence?

This is not just with certain United fans. Last year it was Liverpool. They are the two clubs with largest support in Ireland, and unfortunately a relatively small number of posters on both sides seem to want to go out of their way to be offended. This thread is a prime example.

So yes, it's now all my fault. Maybe some of you guys should just perhaps look in the mirror on occasion

Liam McPoyle

Beasty wrote: »

I had seen discussion in the mods forum and contributed to that discussion. I have also been involved in discussions with the relevant CMods

Yes I've made my mind up on all this "manc" drama, because that's exactly what it is. Are you a manc? Do you really take offence at the term? Or is it a matter (and I've seen evidence of this over many years as both CMod for Sport and Admin), of looking to find offence?

This is not just with certain United fans. Last year it was Liverpool. They are the two clubs with largest support in Ireland, and unfortunately a relatively small number of posters on both sides seem to want to go out of their way to be offended. This thread is a prime example.

So yes, it's now all my fault. Maybe some of you guys should just perhaps look in the mirror on occasion

Not sure of the purpose behind this Beasty?. I've already explained my reasons for reporting the posts and I have already accepted your follow up that its not in fact an offensive term.

For the record, I'm not personally offended by it, I have been attempting to highlight the bias (as I see it) that exists on the forum when it comes to United fans and the mod tftf. Just because you or I or who ever is not particularly offended by something it does not mean that others are not. There is no hive mind and people have differing opinions.

So park the "manc" piece.

The other questions still remain.

Why is Adolf Mourinho cardable but Fraudiola is not?

Why is snowflake cardable but "back to your own playpen chaps" isnt?

Why is "Bemitez" cardable but countless other posts are not?

Thats what the issue is, inconsistent application of the charter and what appears to be the targeting of a certain demographic by one mod.

Will I Am Not

Just reading over the Liverpool thread after last nights game and a team of French players are called “absolute baguettes”, Neymar is called an arsehole and PSG are called scumbags.

Would there be any point in me reporting any of those posts considering a moderator was actively posting throughout that thread during and since the game? Particularly the baguette one considering the whole Frogba thing?

Beasty

Will I Am Not wrote: »

Just reading over the Liverpool thread after last nights game and a team of French players are called “absolute baguettes”, Neymar is called an arsehole and PSG are called scumbags.

Would there be any point in me reporting any of those posts considering a moderator was actively posting throughout that thread during and since the game? Particularly the baguette one considering the whole Frogba thing?

Don't know. I do know that a couple of yellows have already been handed out, so I guess it depends on whether you are referring to the same posts/posters. If not, please go ahead and report them.

Beasty

Just to add your post is a typical example of posters going into "opposing" threads looking to stir things up for fans of other clubs. By my reckoning you have never even posted in that thread. I guess tit for tat is alive and kicking

Tom Mann Centuria

I am almost certain there's no bias from the mods in soccer (though I'm not privy to their conversations in their forum) but I can see why the examples business cat has posted might irritate him, the inconsistency is the problem when you have such specific rules in the forum.

Will I Am Not

Beasty wrote: »

Just to add your post is a typical example of posters going into "opposing" threads looking to stir things up for fans of other clubs. By my reckoning you have never even posted in that thread. I guess tit for tat is alive and kicking

Well you would be wrong. You can check for yourself, I still haven’t reported any of those posts. I don’t think they should be carded. My concern is, as the thread title says, biased and inconsistent moderation.

How exactly am I stirring anything up by not posting or reporting? Such a ridiculous claim from yourself :rolleyes:

Liam McPoyle

Beasty wrote: »

Just to add your post is a typical example of posters going into "opposing" threads looking to stir things up for fans of other clubs. By my reckoning you have never even posted in that thread. I guess tit for tat is alive and kicking

So people aren't allowed to read other threads?

Or if they do, they aren't allowed report things because they are only stirring things up if they do?

I have to say, I find your whole demeanour here shocking. You are essentially saying that people should suck up be treated harsher than others, because that's what this thread is about, United fans being treated harsher by one mod, as has been evidenced.

Beasty

Business Cat wrote: »

So people aren't allowed to read other threads?

Well if posters go into read other threads to find something to get offended about rather than contribute to discussion then so be it. All this whinging about preferential treatment is, in my view, and based on my experience of the forum over an extended period, ridiculous.

I am sure there are Liverpool fans who can, and do, go into the United thread to find something to be offended about. Indeed what I am currently seeing is almost a mirror image of what I was seeing around this time last year.

There is a fundamental problem with the forum that has been exacerbated by the recent trend to allow and even encourage match talk in Superthreads. It means there is less engagement between fans of the two largest clubs in terms of popularity on this site and in Ireland. I know there are exceptions to this, and I would encourage more to join them. Many posters clearly do not want to do that for fear of inadvertently offending someone.

It's just creating an escalating "them and us" scenario and polarising fans of the two clubs (again I know there are exceptions, but the toxicity bred by this trend is causing more problems, and indeed more posters to go looking to be offended - it's almost becoming a tribal ritual for some)

What I would suggest to those that are offended, given this polarisation, is stick to "your" threads - you are much less likely to get offended, and can relax in the belief/hope you are talking to like minded individuals

It's quite funny really. I know loads of United fans in real life, and I probably know nearly as many Liverpool fans in real life If I were to interact with any of them without the knowledge of their footballing allegiance, TBH I think I would be unable to tell a United fan from a Liverpool fan. Both appear to me to be quite normal examples of the human race which I suspect may come as a surprise to some around here

Liam McPoyle

I understand and agree with some of your points above Beasty. I have LFC supporting friends in the real world that Ive known for years. We can talk about football, have a bit of slagging, and nobody gets the hump. I also have LFC supporting friends in the real world that are absolute **** when it comes to football so we simply do not engage with it. Likewise with some United supporting friends I might add. However we also have commonalities outside of football so football related wankerism can be over looked. On the SF I rarely cross paths with any of the posters on any forums outside of the SF so that’s the only place I see posts in the main. The idea that we can all be football friends is quaint and little more.

None of that however has anything whatsoever to do with this thread and why I started it.

I don’t know if you are being deliberately obtuse by deflecting my questions or maybe that I’ve not been clear enough.

So just so we are crystal clear.

I am not offended by any of the posts I have reported. I rarely report anything in the forum or any forum for that matter. I’m a grown man and if someone on the internet calling a multi millionaire footballer a bollox or slagging off the team I support offends me, well I’d need to ask myself some serious questions.

You can check the number of reported posts from me in the RP forum. I’d reckon I may have reported 40 odd posts in the last 6 years and I’d estimate at least 50% of those have been in the SF in the last 6 months.

You keep going back to the line that Im looking for something to be offended by which is disingenuous at best, down right disrespectful at worst. It’s also imo a deflection tactic to try and draw attention away from the matter at hand or to make me look like a crazy person with an axe to grind so again, just so we are crystal.

Why has the charter been applied to the nth degree by the mod tftf when it comes to Manchester United fans when fans of other teams can say and do say the exact same things and face no censure?

Why is “Adolf Mourinho”, posted by a United fan that has been a big supporter of Jose cardable but “Fraudiola” posted by a City fan not?

Why is “snowflake”, not directed at any poster in particular and posted by a United fan cardable but “back to your own playpen” posted by a non-United fan is not?

Why is “Bemitez”, posted by a United fan cardable but 2 separate posts, one calling Neymar an arsehole, one calling him a bollocks, posted by non-United fans are not?.

All of those cards given above were given out by mod thanks for the fish, so to sit there and tell me that there is no bias towards United fans is one of the most laughable things I’ve ever seen.

Like I said in one of my previous posts, this is about fairness in application of the rules. If something is cardable for one poster then it should be cardable for all posters, period. At this point in time however that is simply not the case. The mod tftf is poisoned against United fans, there is concrete proof of that above and this whole thread is of his making. Not mine, not yours, not any of the posters in the forum, his. He has taken it upon himself to card United fans, not because he should, but because he could. Nobody looking at the facts as they are could argue otherwise.

All mods should apply the common sense approach to moderating. Under my old account I modded the gentlemen’s club and personal issues so Im all too familiar with how it works and how difficult it can be to strike the right balance between a forum becoming a free for all or a police state. The common sense approach is in general applied in the soccer forum by all mods except when it comes to fish and United fans. Its painfully clear that he is anything but moderate to one of the biggest groups of posters on the forum so when a moderator cannot be moderate, are posters just supposed to like it?

Mickeroo

I don't really have much to say on this matter but T4TF has handed out a total of 68 cards in the forum over the past 6 months and I went through each of them to try and spot any patterns of bias targeting United fans.

Out of the 68 cards this was the breakdown:

Cards received by Liverpool fans total 33
Cards received by United fans total 23
The other 12 were scattered elsewhere around the forum.

Liam McPoyle

Im not going to put you on the spot and ask for your opinion but I want to re-iterate, so there are no ambiguities, I have no issue with being carded when I deserve them. I have no issue with others being carded when they deserve them. If posters break the rules then the charter should be applied and they should be sanctioned accordingly depending on the severity of the offence.

I do have an issue with being carded for something that others are not carded for.

I do have an issue with others being carded for something that others are not.

With that being said, the number of cards fish has given out and to whom he has given them to is not relevant here.

What is relevant is that Manchester United fans have been carded by fish for things that other posters have not been carded for, the exact same things.

That is in my opinion bias.

Beasty

Well I think Mick's stats above debunks the "biased" allegation, so let me turn to the inconsistency point

Like it or not, there is inconsistency in moderation across the site. That may be within or between different forums. here we are talking about inconsistent moderation "within" the Soccer forum

We have already seen one poster indicate they do not report posts because they believe some of the application of the rules is too rigid. However those rules have evolved with the full input of forum regulars. Maybe they should be reviewed again, but let's leave that until the annual SF feedback thread as trying to implement anything new part way through a season is only going to lead to confusion and complexity.

One of the main issues here through is the SF mods are actively discouraged by the userbase from exercising discretion when considering sanctions. Then of course we have the fact that different mods may have different views on specific issues in connection with potential sanctions. Add to that the very fast moving nature of many threads, and the desire of some posters to keep within their Superthread "safe space", where there may be more "toleration" afforded regulars - that's something that has been discussed in recent Feedback threads. We also have mods who are quite interested in watching football rather than continually keeping an eye on what is happening here, it becomes hopefully a little easier to understand how some things may simply get missed. Add to that a desire expressed at site level to be less rigorous in applying sanctions and the picture becomes quite blurred

One thing Mick's stats do highlight is the particular problems emanating from fans of those 2 clubs. I used to find it quite interesting that few sanctions were handed out in the Celtic and Rangers threads when, TBH, some of the behaviour could be worse than we see in United and Liverpool threads. My explanation is relatively simple - the fans of the Scottish clubs get on with supporting and worrying about their own clubs. Alas some (and again I re-emphasise only some) of those purporting to support United or Liverpool seem more obsessed with the other club!

Anyway, in an attempt to bring this to a close, I will suggest we have another word with the mods over the "consistency" point, and in particular perhaps checking when things are reported for a second or more time that someone actually makes sure a post has been checked out. I would hope though that we do not continue to see the likes of "manc" reported as being offensive (equally if there is then evidence of Liverpool fans using that term to wind up United fans, perhaps on the back of some perceived "blessing" in tgis thread, I would be happy to lay down the law to such fans)

Will I Am Not

Beasty wrote: »

Well I think Mick's stats above debunks the "biased" allegation.

Does it really though? 23 cards in a United thread he doesn’t even post in. How does that stack up against the rest of the mods? What percentage of cards in the United thread is he responsible for? I’d like to hear those stats before classing it as debunked.

Trigger

Beasty wrote: »

We have already seen one poster indicate they do not report posts because they believe some of the application of the rules is too rigid. However those rules have evolved with the full input of forum regulars. Maybe they should be reviewed again, but let's leave that until the annual SF feedback thread as trying to implement anything new part way through a season is only going to lead to confusion and complexity.

With all respect due Beasty, You say this as if the Feedback thread will be looked at with any form of decency and referred back to the SF posters. The last feedback thread, while it was a clusterfùck over the stuff I won't go into, brought up a number of other issues across the SF. I personally PM'd both yourself and Cmods for updates and was told that the mods would look at them and update the userbase of the outcome. It seems as if the mod team swept this under the carpet and hoped users would forget about the feedback thread, which most probably have, we are now in December nearly and still no update on it.

I've been a member of this forum for years, I've over 11k posts and I'd say 10k of those are in the SF, I do post in the liverpool thread and I have had numerous discussions in there with a variety of posters.. but after seeing and reading the level of moderation aimed at United fans over the last year or so, I have practically stopped posting in there more out of fear that even a spelling mistake will get you a card, yes this has happened on occasions, I don't feel that i should have to go thru a DPR just because i typed an m instead of an n. Common sense should be used at all times and I cant say that is happening.

Over and under moderation has led to the demise of the SF and the loss of a huge number of decent posters. It shouldn't matter who you support or what thread you post regularly on, every user should be treated equally by the moderation team, they are after all supposed to be impartial. I can't say that is happening lately, and I know I for one will be taking a step back until there has been an improvement in that and looking at the level of posting in the SF as a whole it looks as though there are many in the same boat.

I do feel that some mods don't really care what happens to the SF, and I'm sure it's one of the more active forums after AH, surely it is in the best interest of the Admins and the staff, to keep the SF flowing and not have many, posters leave because of the above.

Liam McPoyle

Hi Beasty

Im not sure how it debunks anything. Like I said in my response above to Mickeroo, I have no problem with posts being carded when cards are deserved but I do have a problem with posts being carded when they are posted by a specific demographic but posts by every other demographic do not get carded for the exact same things.

I get the distinct impression that you are deliberately skirting around my questions so you can then turn around and say “well I’ve given you a lot of my time and Im sorry you aren’t happy with my answers” and close the thread so if you want to just shoo me away lock up the thread an be done with it.

The feedback threads are a joke. From the get go the rule is “don’t mention specific cards, posts or mod actions” so users are hamstrung with what they can and cannot say. Its feedback in an environment where absolute control of what can and cannot be said is exercised by the mods so it’s not really feedback at all.

I certainly do not expect instantaneous mod actions for posts that break the rules particularly in the fast moving threads but if a post is reported there is no excuse for it being missed, none, even if its hours or days later. I have reported posts that are on a par or worse than with what I and other United fans have been carded for and no action has been taken on a number of them.

If I was putting forward an argument for general bias against United fans that would be one thing. If the carded posts I’ve used as examples were given by a cross section of mods, or posted by fans of a cross section of teams then your point about the differing opinion of mods, how things are perceived and the chances of inconsistency would absolutely ring true and I’d be able to accept your logic.

That’s not the case though.

The posts WERE made by United fans.

The posts WERE carded by one mod only, who also happens to support the team that are his clubs most hated rival.

It’s requires a massive suspension of belief to think that it’s nothing more than a coincidence. The general inconsistency in the application of the charter has arisen specifically because of fishs consistent approach to carding United fans for frivolous reasons, reasons that fans of other clubs do not face action for.

So i ask again.

Why has the charter been applied to the nth degree by the mod tftf when it comes to Manchester United fans when fans of other teams can say and do say the exact same things and face no censure?

Why is “Adolf Mourinho”, posted by a United fan that has been a big supporter of Jose cardable but “Fraudiola” posted by a City fan not?

Why is “snowflake”, not directed at any poster in particular and posted by a United fan cardable but “back to your own playpen” posted by a non-United fan is not?

Why is “Bemitez”, posted by a United fan cardable but 2 separate posts, one calling Neymar an arsehole, one calling him a bollocks, posted by non-United fans are not?.

Beasty

Will I Am Not wrote: »

Does it really though? 23 cards in a United thread he doesn’t even post in. How does that stack up against the rest of the mods? What percentage of cards in the United thread is he responsible for? I’d like to hear those stats before classing it as debunked.

Whether he posts there is completely irrelevant. The fact you don't want to report posts is though.

No I am not going to provide any of the information you request. It is equally irrelevant.

Whether you accept the bias theory is debunked or not is also irrelevant. I have spent enough time as CMod and Admin working with the local mods to know there is no bias. You have an Arsenal supporting CMod who has expressed a similar view to my own. There are discussions amongst the mods when there is doubt over any action that may be considered. It's not a case of one mod heading in one direction and others choosing to head in another.

Beasty

OK, Business Cat, let me throw up a few examples of things posted in the SF that have not been acted on by mods:

Typical bully.

He's always being known for having scumbag tendencies so it's no surprise.

I wouldn't want a yoke like Suarez next nor near the club tbh, detestable human

Huh huh

Says alot about United fans that their season hinges on Liverpool losing a final.

THOSE CNUTS WOULD KNOW BECAUSE THEY HAVE SPENT THE LAST 28 YEARS CELEBRATING WHEN UNITED LOSE

HA

HE

HA

HE

HA

HE

HA

HE

HA

HE

HA

HE

HA

HE

HE

Recognise any of those "comments"?

Do you really want to continue pushing your claims of bias?

Will I Am Not

Beasty wrote: »

Whether he posts there is completely irrelevant. The fact you don't want to report posts is though.

No I am not going to provide any of the information you request. It is equally irrelevant.

Whether you accept the bias theory is debunked or not is also irrelevant. I have spent enough time as CMod and Admin working with the local mods to know there is no bias. You have an Arsenal supporting CMod who has expressed a similar view to my own. There are discussions amongst the mods when there is doubt over any action that may be considered. It's not a case of one mod heading in one direction and others choosing to head in another.

Funny that, considering this...

Beasty wrote: »

Just to add your post is a typical example of posters going into "opposing" threads looking to stir things up for fans of other clubs. By my reckoning you have never even posted in that thread. I guess tit for tat is alive and kicking

Liam McPoyle

So that's the route you are going down now Beasty?

Picking out posts of mine, some of which are from god knows how long ago in an effort to undermine what I'm saying on this thread.

Wow, that's a new low, it really is, and it proves to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that you cannot provide answers to the questions I'm asking here because you know, deep down, that what I'm saying is true.

I'd be confident that if you went through my entire post history you would find other posts that could have been actioned and some that should have been actioned, not just in the soccer forum.

The same could be said for many other posters in the SF and across the site.

But that means absolutely nothing in the context of this thread. Not a single thing, because the fact remains that fish has targeted United fans and given them cards for things that other people have gotten away with scot-free.

So you can stick a fork in the thread as it's clearly done.

One final note. It's immensely disappointing that from the outset and up until your last post you have tried to paint me and other United fans as some kind of perpetually offended agitators. The admins are held up as the last bastion of impartiality on the site, that everyone is given a fair hearing by them and when users draw attention to what they believe is a very real issue that they will be listened to and their concerns would be acknowledged. Instead, the below was in your very first post

Unfortunately I have seen plenty of evidence of United fans looking for things to get offended by.

And ye wonder why others don't raise issues?

Thank you for your time.

BC

Skylinehead

Will I Am Not wrote: »

Does it really though? 23 cards in a United thread he doesn’t even post in. How does that stack up against the rest of the mods? What percentage of cards in the United thread is he responsible for? I’d like to hear those stats before classing it as debunked.

What the hell does carding have to do with posting in a given thread?

Beasty

Business Cat wrote: »

So that's the route you are going down now Beasty?

Selectively choosing examples to support my point - yes I completely acknowledge that.

Let's face it - my position is clear and I've seen absolutely nothing to change that. I accept there is inconsistency, and those examples I posted support that. I do not accept there is bias, and I have seen absolutely nothing in this thread to sway my view. Your view is clearly not going to change either, and you are entitled to that view.

bucketybuck

Beasty wrote: »

but let's leave that until the annual SF feedback thread as trying to implement anything new part way through a season is only going to lead to confusion and complexity.

Thats just hilarious! You do know we remember the last feedback thread, right? You know, the one with all the examples of inconsistent moderation towards certain threads? The one that that changed absolutely nothing and hasn't been mentioned since?

And this thread will end up exactly the same. But even if it is to be ignored at least I can say the words, I made a conscious decision to post less because of the moderation of the soccer forum.

Will I Am Not

Nixonbot wrote: »

What the hell does carding have to do with posting in a given thread?

About as much as asking if a post should be acted upon has to do with posting in a given thread.

adox

I’ve given up posting on the soccer forum after being a regular poster for 13 years.

It’s shambolic at this stage and this thread only highlights the utter lack of will to even look at the problems It’s just a baton down the hatches and rally the troops to shut it down.

Just like the last feedback thread where everything was ignored.

It’s your site and you can run it whatever way you want but the lack of honesty by the mods and powers that be is absolutely galling. You may ultimately end up bringing down what you seem so vehemently trying to defend at any cost.

Beasty, you would make a good politician, not answering any of the points directly, just posting a load of whataboutery and condescending nonsense.

It’s utterly shameful.

The Utd thread is an embarrassment.

Skylinehead

Will I Am Not wrote: »

About as much as asking if a post should be acted upon has to do with posting in a given thread.

I didn't make any such argument, I'm asking what your point is.

Will I Am Not

Nixonbot wrote: »

I didn't make any such argument, I'm asking what your point is.

I was replying to Beasty, in the same kind of way he replied to me.

hullaballoo

As an impartial, I'm not seeing any real resolution here.

Let's not beat around the bush. Some Manchester United fans are still annoyed that "their" mod was demodded and are now finding absolutely any and every excuse to attack what will always be an imperfect system of moderation.

The SF has always endeavored to have moderators from each of the "big" (read: most problematic) teams as mods. But that requires a cool head and an ability to be objective.

Once the objectivity and cool-headedness goes, so does the opportunity to have a moderator who sympathises with you.

The long and short of it is someone with a bit of sense needs to step up and get themselves into the fray.

Fighting amongst yourselves is not helping the cause.

ebbsy

adox wrote: »

I’ve given up posting on the soccer forum after being a regular poster for 13 years.

It’s shambolic at this stage and this thread only highlights the utter lack of will to even look at the problems It’s just a baton down the hatches and rally the troops to shut it down.

Just like the last feedback thread where everything was ignored.

It’s your site and you can run it whatever way you want but the lack of honesty by the mods and powers that be is absolutely galling. You may ultimately end up bringing down what you seem so vehemently trying to defend at any cost.

Beasty, you would make a good politician, not answering any of the points directly, just posting a load of whataboutery and condescending nonsense.

It’s utterly shameful.

The Utd thread is an embarrassment.

And that's before we start talking about their team.

Liam McPoyle

hullaballoo wrote: »

As an impartial, I'm not seeing any real resolution here.

Let's not beat around the bush. Some Manchester United fans are still annoyed that "their" mod was demodded and are now finding absolutely any and every excuse to attack what will always be an imperfect system of moderation.

The SF has always endeavored to have moderators from each of the "big" (read: most problematic) teams as mods. But that requires a cool head and an ability to be objective.

Once the objectivity and cool-headedness goes, so does the opportunity to have a moderator who sympathises with you.

The long and short of it is someone with a bit of sense needs to step up and get themselves into the fray.

Fighting amongst yourselves is not helping the cause.

Hi H.

I want to be 100% clear here. This thread was not started by me because I have an axe to grind about MrMacs demodding. He's a big boy and ive no doubt he doesnt need me or anyone else to fight his battles for him. I'd hazard a guess that some of the parties involved here are, behind the scenes, putting forward that hypothesis in an effort to undermine my credibility. It's an easy tune to play to draw attention away from what I and clearly others feel is a very real issue.

The United thread has long been the most fast moving in the forum ie, hitting the 10k thread limit, even in the days when vangall or Moyes were in charge and things were less than rosey on field. The sharp decline in participation from regular and long term posters and the fact its running parallel with alot of questionable mod actions is no coincidence.

Hotblack Desiato

hullaballoo wrote: »

As an impartial, I'm not seeing any real resolution here.

Let's not beat around the bush. Some Manchester United fans are still annoyed that "their" mod was demodded

Right, let me get this straight.

LFC fans are allowed call MUFC fans nonces.

No non-LFC fan is allowed call a fan of another club a nonce.

We're clear now.

Neutral

Moderation and what I perceive as mod bias and inconsistency have just put me off treating the United thread as a regular stop anymore after 7 years posting there.

Another mod has suggested in here that the United thread is going quiet and/or we have a bee in our bonnet because of on-field results and performances. Funny that, as I remember the thread being quite busy and present on the mainpage during the worst days of Moyes and LVG. Also, United's current poor form is not putting me off discussing football/United on other sites and elsewhere in life.

There's a perfect example in the United thread from earlier tonight of the stuff which goes unpunished and can bait posters into picking up a card themselves...

Neutral wrote:

I say fair play to the Utd fans who opposed his appointment from the get go based on his character history and style. They come out of this looking good imo. Very easy to sell your soul for the possibility of success.

This poster will have known that there was a lot of support for Jose in the United thread during those first two seasons. So he has basically come in to say 'Most of you sold your soul'. Right, where do we go from that discussion-wise? Was he honestly attempting to engage in debate?

The same poster was at that same shtick in the United thread 7 months ago when United 0 - 1 West Brom confirmed City as champions...

Some contrast between posts eight days ago and posts this evening. #mourinhoball didn’t used to offer these types of lows so regularly. Big game next Saturday. Will be quite the crisis summit in the event of defeat.

...and the only posters carded were those in the thread who suggested there was winding-up afoot....

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=106737599&postcount=3812

And that's what it was, winding up, and that wasn't the 'neutral' posters only attempt that evening. A regular poster in the United thread had just posted that he was quitting the thread, and heavily implied that it was the thread which was the reason rather than anything related to football or Mourinho...

Stringer Bell wrote:

I had a long post wrote detailing my exact feelings and reasoning for said feelings, but on reflection this place just isn't worth it. **** this thread, I have nothing more to contribute to it. There are some good posters in here but there is just too many absolute dickheads to waste more time here.

Enjoy the world cup

Fair enough, but then the neutral poster quotes him and replies with...

Neutral wrote:

Personally don’t find it in the least surprising that a decent proportion of the fanbase are annoyed with limited football from an entertainment perspective that has failed to yield the big prize or challenge for same.

Where did he draw any of that from Stringer's post? He didn't, and he knew exactly what he was doing.

Thanks4DaFish was around that night to hand out cards to those calling out the WUMs, yet those particular examples of WUMing above from a fellow Liverpool fan went unpunished.

Also, another mod has suggested in here that United fans on Boards have an axe to grind after the demodding of Mr. Mac. Well, I can't speak for all of the other United posters, but that incident has no affect on my words here. Fwiw, I wasn't a big fan of Mr. Mac the mod. In another disclosure which might surprise some - I have absolutely no problem with Slick Ric.

Never mind anything else though, that card for 'Bemitiez' shows a clear bias IMO. Just bizarre. If that doesn't show bias, I'm not sure what does. It's not as if we're going to see the mod posting "I'm biased against United fans". It's their actions which will tell us, and that's why we have this thread now it seems.

Admin/mods can tell themselves and their superiors that the United thread is quiet because United are shíte and/or there's a sulk going on over Mr. Mac. The reality is though that moderation is absolutely strangling the place and just putting longtime posters off discussing United on Boards.

Hotblack Desiato

Well that's just it exactly.

Anyone calling out an obvious troll or WUM is carded, the trolls and WUMs are not and have free rein.

Every time a goal is scored against Utd, (never mind a bad loss, just a goal being scored) in they come with their oh so constructive posts.

If the mods are wondering why there are fewer and fewer posts they don't have far to look.

The soccer forum on the whole is fine. The vast majority of threads tick along with little orno issues.The mods do a decent job in a tough forum to mod.

This seems like a vandetta thread or certain posters have axes to grind if I'm being honest.

pjohnson

hullaballoo wrote: »

As an impartial, I'm not seeing any real resolution here.

Let's not beat around the bush. Some Manchester United fans are still annoyed that "their" mod was demodded and are now finding absolutely any and every excuse to attack what will always be an imperfect system of moderation.

The SF has always endeavored to have moderators from each of the "big" (read: most problematic) teams as mods. But that requires a cool head and an ability to be objective.

Once the objectivity and cool-headedness goes, so does the opportunity to have a moderator who sympathises with you.

The long and short of it is someone with a bit of sense needs to step up and get themselves into the fray.

Fighting amongst yourselves is not helping the cause.

Its nothing to do with who the mod supports. Its to do with consistency. The "charter" is a joke with most of it being only occasionaly enforced to differing severity. Yeah moderation will always be somewhat imperfect but it has just failed completely in the soccer forum over the last few months.

It appears that there is at the very least no communication between any of the mods and certainly no interest in actually maintaining any standard of discussion in the forum. Only occasionally do breaches get acted on. But its obvious it will only be fobbed off to the next pointless feedback thread that will change nothing.

The whole attitude of "their mod" is moronic. Mods should primarily be focused on stopping the forum descending to a dumpsterfire. Regardless of who supports who and who reports what where. Breaches per the charter should be carded. Or the charter should just be binned and officially make it a free for all. A half arséd charter is just causing inconsistency when sometimes, something might be a breach of it.

pjohnson

Just noticed there is apparently a moderator discussion area. Then how can things be so awful do they not discuss/try to establish a standard?

And the whole AH style crap of "looking to be offended" yeah its childish but simple question if a post breaches charter then why does it matter what club the person reporting it follows?

Are you only supposed to report posts from people who support the same team as you or something?

VW 1

Not a whole heap to add to the contributions above, other than to say the actions surrounding the end of season incidents last year, lack of action, and feedback swept under the carpet leaves me barely flicking through the soccer forum these days, never mind wanting to engage or contribute.

The Manchester unite thread is one of the most entertaining on the Boards.ie. I always enjoy reading it. But I can see every day, veiled comments about a mod, and have seen over a few years a campaign by a few against the mod mentioned in OP. I think this guy does the job for many years? Not get paid, and is shown not to favouritise.

It is sad and a bit childish to try to bully.

LuckyLloyd

In my opinion the root cause of the “issues” raised here is the continued poor performance of Manchester United FC on the pitch, particularly in light of strong performance from their two biggest rival clubs - but most specifically in light of the increasing failure of a high profile management appointment and significant doubt over the short to medium term future of the club.

To be blunt, negative opinions on Utd are currently reasoned by any objective measure and this is clearly hard for those posting here to swallow. When their fortunes on the pitch improve, so will their comfort level with the boards soccer forum improve. But, of course, that is beyond the remit of boards.ie.

And I say this as a Liverpool fan sanctioned by T4TF earlier this year - a sanction upheld in DR.