Changing dry dog food

Shelli2

I'm considering a change of dog food for the pack. The two smallies have always been on Royal Canin Small Breed, last year I trialed a changed to Marcus Muhle but it didn't suit so I reverted back.



Earlier this year I noticed a decline in condition, put it down to weather but then on chatting to the local petshop owner, he said (unconfirmed!) that Royal Canin had been bought out and the quality had been reduced.

I changed to Canagan on his recommendation, and with great success. I am now feeding all 3 from the same bag of Canagan - which makes life very handy and they are all thriving on it.

Mini manchester terrier, pomeranian and husky - all rescues with food issues! :rolleyes:



Just wondering if anyone has found a similar quality brand but cheaper. I'll continue to pay €75 for 12kg if necessary as they are so very worth it, but no harm in asking around if there's money to be saved.

cocker5

Shelli2 wrote: »

I'm considering a change of dog food for the pack. The two smallies have always been on Royal Canin Small Breed, last year I trialed a changed to Marcus Muhle but it didn't suit so I reverted back.



Earlier this year I noticed a decline in condition, put it down to weather but then on chatting to the local petshop owner, he said (unconfirmed!) that Royal Canin had been bought out and the quality had been reduced.

I changed to Canagan on his recommendation, and with great success. I am now feeding all 3 from the same bag of Canagan - which makes life very handy and they are all thriving on it.

Mini manchester terrier, pomeranian and husky - all rescues with food issues! :rolleyes:



Just wondering if anyone has found a similar quality brand but cheaper. I'll continue to pay €75 for 12kg if necessary as they are so very worth it, but no harm in asking around if there's money to be saved.

Royal canin has always been poor quality im afraid - just an excellent marketing department!

what about: https://www.zooplus.ie/esearch.htm#q=acana

do all your dogs eat the same food?

https://www.zooplus.ie/shop/dogs/dry_dog_food/206813

Shelli2

cocker5 wrote: »

do all your dogs eat the same food?

They are currently eating the same Canagan, varied amounts based on weights of course. (I had them on different varieties of Royal Canin previously)



The Wolf of Wilderness Adult - looks like a reasonably good alternative.

muddypaws

Royal Canin hasn't been bought out and the food hasn't changed. I assume the Canagan is dearer? Higher profit margin for him.

tk123

In looking Canagan up on Amazon I've discovered Paul O'Grady has a food lol

gmisk

Lily's kitchen dry food is very good as is there wet. We showed to vet and he was impressed with contents

Shelli2

muddypaws wrote: »

Royal Canin hasn't been bought out and the food hasn't changed. I assume the Canagan is dearer? Higher profit margin for him.

I did say unconfirmed, doesn't surprise me :rolleyes:


Canagan is around €75 for 12kg, Royal Canin is around €72 for 12kg...so not too much in the difference, and I was feeding less of the Canagan so more bang for my buck so to speak.



That said, I don't really want to go back to Royal Canin, as one food doesn't suit all 3, and I had definately notices an improvement in condition when I changed to Canagen.



I went to buy a small bag of Wolf of Wilderness last night to try before ordering large amounts on line, the pet shop I tried didn't stock it, but I did pick up a 6kg bag of Eden Holistic 80/20 for €25, half price, this food would be my ultimate choice, but it's way out of my budget normally.



Any idea where stocks Wolf of Wilderness in Dublin?

cocker5

Op .. when I fed dried I ordered everything from zooplus .. so why not order from the link I provided?

tk123

Shelli2 wrote: »

Any idea where stocks Wolf of Wilderness in Dublin?

It's a zooplus own brand afaik so you won't be able to buy it in any shops. Don't MaxiZoo have one similar - it has wolves on it anyways lol!

Shelli2

cocker5 wrote: »

Op .. when I fed dried I ordered everything from zooplus .. so why not order from the link I provided?

I had wanted to try a small bag, just to see. Thought I might pick up a bag locally rather than waiting on delivery. I have that 6kg Eden to get me through a few days now.

I've now odered the trial pack on there, and got one for my mam too to get the free delivery value.

cocker5

Juts be careful chopping and changing food can cause upset tummies... move over to new food with a 50/50 mix for a few days.. to see a noticeable change you'll need to be feeding one food over a month

Hoboo

Ive been using Wolf of Wilderness for the past 3 months. Buy it from zooplus.

Super results, labs coat is softer than ever, and she loves it. Tried all of the flavours, the new beef soft kibble is gone in 60 seconds. 4x5kg bags £80 (buy smaller bags to keep fresher). Actually works out cheaper to buy from .co.uk and pay delivery than buy from .ie. (my total with the cats urinary food was €157 v €168 from .ie).

mvl

anybody else using red mills go native ? (70% meat, puppy food has salmon/spinach/ginger)
- we've put ours onto it last month.

may be stupid question: don't they get bored of same food all the time ? are there any supplements that are good for them for winter ?

The Wild Goose

Hi,
Just came across this thread.
I've got two German shepherds and I'm also minding my daughters small mixed breed temporarily.
These are just a few pointers from my own experience, and I'd like to point out that I'm not associated with anyone or any company.
1. The most important thing with kibble (dry dog food) is the meat content. Pay no attention to advertising slogans, or words like 'complete nourishment' on the packaging.
Some of the worst dog food is from the most well known brands (Pedigree, Bakers).
Always read the ingredients on the back as manufacturers must list the ingredients in order of volume. So if the first ingredient is 'wheat' for example, then it's junk food for dogs.
And ingredients like "meat and animal derivatives" are another no-no. Proper ingredients should say something like "de-boned chicken" or similar.
2. There's no such thing as a free lunch, even for dogs, so essentially you get what you pay for.
So don't expect cheapo dog food to be good quality... it's just not possible.
If you feed your dogs cheap food you'll end up paying for it through vet bills, not to mention your dogs ill-health.
It's just not worth it, especially for your favourite pet.
3. Food like Royal Canin for example have always been so-so, new company or otherwise.
Have you ever noticed when you go to the vet that they only have a stock of one particular brand (typically Royal Canin)?
There's a reason for that. They're pushing that brand because of financial incentive, not because it's the best food.
Royal Canin are also very 'brand aware' with things like 'serious' packaging, and food 'designed for specific breed' etc.
There's a website called (I think) dogfoodanalysis. It's an independent site that analyses dog food, but being based in US doesn't have all the brands that we know. However it does cover most of the major brands.
4. Zooplus stock a huge range, from the very poor to the very good. I buy quite a bit from them myself, and they have free delivery if you spend over a certain amount (not a problem for me with two shepherds!)
I find Naturo an excellent (wet) dog food also. Wet isn't as messy as you might think, as the food comes in trays and B/B dates are a year or more. They're based in Northern Ireland and their food is available in the likes of Dunnes, or you can order online with free deliveries over €35.
No matter what brand you choose or where you buy it, the main thing I would stress is that you take a little time and check the ingredients. Forget about the advertising blurb or the colour of the packet.
These things are aimed at you not your dog because dogs can't read. Those green bits in the cheap dog kibble are designed to fool you into thinking you're giving your dog 'nutritious 'vegetables when in fact it's just colourings and chemicals.
So next time you go shopping to get food for your favourite friend, do him/her a favour and READ THE INGREDIENTS.
In the long run your dog will thank you for it.

The Wild Goose

Just to refer to the OP question specifically....
The Naturo I mentioned in the previous post costs €10 for eight 400g trays.
So at €10 for 3.2kg, Twelve Kg would work out at €38.40

They have lots of different flavours, have a 60% meat content, and some of them are available 'grain-free' for hypo-allergic dogs?

This works out at half the price she's currently paying!

My other daughter feeds her two pugs exclusively on Naturo, and they both love it and are thriving.
Just a suggestion.

tk123

The Wild Goose wrote: »

Hi,
Just came across this thread.
I've got two German shepherds and I'm also minding my daughters small mixed breed temporarily.
These are just a few pointers from my own experience, and I'd like to point out that I'm not associated with anyone or any company.
1. The most important thing with kibble (dry dog food) is the meat content. Pay no attention to advertising slogans, or words like 'complete nourishment' on the packaging.
Some of the worst dog food is from the most well known brands (Pedigree, Bakers).
Always read the ingredients on the back as manufacturers must list the ingredients in order of volume. So if the first ingredient is 'wheat' for example, then it's junk food for dogs.
And ingredients like "meat and animal derivatives" are another no-no. Proper ingredients should say something like "de-boned chicken" or similar.
......
Royal Canin are also very 'brand aware' with things like 'serious' packaging, and food 'designed for specific breed' etc.
There's a website called (I think) dogfoodanalysis. It's an independent site that analyses dog food, but being based in US doesn't have all the brands that we know. However it does cover most of the major brands.

Your post is a bit of a contradiction to be fair.. De-boned chicken etc etc is just another marketing buzzword like any other big company like RC etc would use to sell their food.

Anyone who raw feeds like myself has no issues feeding 'derivatives' - necks, carcass, green tripe etc etc... and my dogs have no problem eating it :pac:

The cost would also be another marketing tool imo. It's €70 a bag so it must be the best right? etc etc

pawrick

Reading this thread made me look for a comparison site

Here's one which includes food you will get on zooplus and other brands available in Ireland and the UK

https://www.allaboutdogfood.co.uk/the-dog-food-directory

From my own perspective I've been using mostly wolf of the wilderness from zooplus mixed with good quality wet food. I've tried other brands such as taste of the wild and other more expensive ones but i tend to fall back on wolf of the wilderness as my dog does well on it. Raw food diet was better imo but I just don't have the time/space to be prepping raw food.

My cats are on royal canin and i think it's over priced for what it is but at least they like it, go with what ever your pet prefers once it's of decent quality and at the right price for you imo.

The Wild Goose

@tk123
I'm afraid you're barking up the wrong tree there.
The OP was asking about kibble, not feeding raw. Most people don't know about or do know but don't have the time for raw feeding.
Isn't it better to point people in the right direction and encourage them to at least check the ingredients properly so that they can make an informed judgment? Better good kibble than junk kibble.

And maybe best not to pre-judge either. I've met with Conor Brady a couple of times.
I fed my two shepherds exclusively raw for over a year. I was buying 30kg of duck mince or chicken mince at a time, together with duck/chicken necks and wings, beef liver etc. from Carnivore Kellys.
I had 2 fridges and 2 freezers, a human one and a doggie one.
I stopped feeding raw when I moved to the country. I used to collect the raw myself in Dublin, but when I moved it had to be delivered.
Last summer I had two deliveries in a row where the meat was gone off.
That's €120 worth of raw meat only fit for disposing of.

Raw feeding requires not only time and effort, but also good food handling practice, and most people just haven't either the time or knowledge for it.
You may think that it's a marketing tool, but rule of thumb is that the more expensive the dog food, the higher the meat content.

'Meat and animal derivatives' can mean road kill, diseased animals, hooves, fur, in fact anything you can boil up in a big vat, including the scum off the top and the gunk off the bottom. De-boned chicken means the meat that's removed from the bone.
Which would you rather eat?

Diemos

For what it is worth we tried a number of 1 to 1.5 kg bags to see what our guy liked (after about 9 months on Royal Canin).
He is a 2 year old JRT rescue, we got him at 1 year old. He can be picky, He wasn't a fan of Burns, could take or leave Royal Canin and James Wellbeloved but he loves Carnilove.
Absolutely loves it, Salomon and the duck a pheasant flavours esp.
We still have a bag of GAIN to try him on but right now, Carnilove seems to be his preferred choice.

The Wild Goose

As an example, here's two dog food ingredients pulled from the Zooplus website.
Remember, the ingredients must be listed in order of content.

Firstly Royal Canin Maxi Adult:
Ingredients:
Corn, poultry protein (dried), corn feed meal, animal fat, pork (dried)*, animal protein (hydrolyzed), beet pulp, corn gluten feed, minerals, fish oil, soya oil, yeasts, hydrolysed crustaceans (source of glucosamine), hydrolysed cartilage (source of chondroitin).

Secondly Taste of the Wild - High Prairie Canine
Ingredients:
Bison, dried lamb meat, dried chicken meat, eggs, sweet potatoes, peas, potatoes, canola oil, roasted bison, roasted game, natural flavourings, tomato puree, ocean fish meal, salt, choline chloride, dried chicory root, tomatoes, blueberries, raspberries, yucca schidigera extract, dried fermentation products of Enterococcus faecium, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus casei and Lactobacillus plantarum, dried Trichoderma longibrachiatum fermentation extract, quality vitamins (A, B1, B2, B6, B12, C, D, E),minerals (iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, manganese proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, manganese sulfate) potassium iodide, manganous oxide, biotin, calcium pantothenate, sodium selenite, folic acid.

As you can see, the main ingredient of Taste of the Wild is buffalo meat, with 2nd and 3rd in descending order also meats.
However in Royal Canin, the first ingredient is Corn?
Actually in RC's first line of ingredients, corn is featured 3 times!
Which makes you wonder if RC is actually more suited as a dog food or a chicken food?

So if you care about your dog, the least you can do is to read the label.
Remember, your dogs can't read, so they're counting on you do the right thing.

muddypaws

Lol invoking the sacred Doctor doesn't impress regular users of this forum.

tk123

muddypaws wrote: »

Lol invoking the sacred Doctor doesn't impress regular users of this forum.

Never heard of him :pac:

The Wild Goose

muddypaws wrote: »

Lol invoking the sacred Doctor doesn't impress regular users of this forum.

Wasn't used to impress, was used to emphasise that I wasn't as unfamiliar with the whole 'raw' ideology as the previous poster seemed to think.

The reason I posted on this thread was an attempt to help people who may not have known how to try and assess a decent dog food for their pets by examining the ingredients.

I did this because I'm a dog lover and have their welfare at heart.
People may disagree which is fine and I'd be happy to discuss further.
However I don't think wise-ass comments are constructive to anyone, least of all the dogs themselves. I also don't think putting LOL before, during or after a comment makes it funny?

tk123

You took my post completely wrong. The point I was trying to make was that many many people feed derivatives probably without realising- it doesn't automatically make them bad. It's nothing to do with raw feeding either.. I mainly raw feed so used that as my example. I know plenty of people who don't feed raw yet have no issues feeding stuff like :
ears - with out without fur
snouts - puffed or not
hooves
necks/legs/trachea/scalp etc etc etc etc I could go on and on


All food is cleverly marketed - whether it's raw, dry or wet. Some companies pay people to promote their food.. some don't. Some post on boards and get banned.. some don't.. And you don't necessarily get what you pay for. My friend pays 80odd per bag of prescription Hills for example.. and assumes it's the best because of the price. I think she's mad but accept that's what she prefers to feed and she prefers to buy it from the vets. I prefer to have my food delivered up to Dublin from Dungarvan which has never melted or had to be disposed of. If it did I'd have a replacement the next day rather than have to wait to get it delivered from another country..

I also like to say lol in my posts and use a variety of emojis .... unless a mod I has an issue with that I shall continue.. lol :pac::P

DBB

Folks, it is a requirement of this forum that users report posts they've an issue with, rather than taking matters into their own hands.
It is also a requirement that posters are respectful towards one another.

The Wild Goose, on this particular subject, I will say that there are so, so many threads and posts about feeding dry and/or raw, and about how to discern good quality wet and dry foods, so with all due respect, this subject has been rather well covered in this forum.
I have to say, I find the tone of your posts a little soapboxy and rather forcefully lecturing on a subject that many on the forum are exceptionally well versed on. By all means, make your point, but why not do a forum search so that you can see it's all been done before.
You may also learn from reading previous threads on the subject that not everyone has the budget to afford the top-grade foods, and hundreds of thousands of dogs do perfectly well, living long and happy lives, on the more middle-of-the-road foods. I fear that the tone of your posts puts you in danger of making dog-owners-on-a-budget feel guilty or inadequate.
So, can we all please recognise that whilst food is quite a divisive issue for some, please bear in mind that different things work for different people... Food is not on one-size-fits-all subject, and nobody should be made feel bad because they can't afford the very best.
Thanks,
DBB

muddypaws

The Wild Goose wrote: »

muddypaws wrote: »

Lol invoking the sacred Doctor doesn't impress regular users of this forum.

Wasn't used to impress, was used to emphasise that I wasn't as unfamiliar with the whole 'raw' ideology as the previous poster seemed to think.

The reason I posted on this thread was an attempt to help people who may not have known how to try and assess a decent dog food for their pets by examining the ingredients.

I did this because I'm a dog lover and have their welfare at heart.
People may disagree which is fine and I'd be happy to discuss further.
However I don't think wise-ass comments are constructive to anyone, least of all the dogs themselves. I also don't think putting LOL before, during or after a comment makes it funny?

But your advice is incorrect. We live in the EU, not America, meat and animal derivatives does not include road kill or diseased animals. Dogs were domesticated because, among other things, they eat the parts of animals that we generally don't, i.e. derivatives.

The two foods you posted, the first ingredient of bison, doesn't say dry, so was it weighed before being dehydrated? If so, there will appear to be more of it in the food than there actually is, as meat contains a lot of water. Once the water is removed, it will move down the ingredient list, but there is no legislation about whether ingredients have to be dry or not.

And as for that nonsense about vets being paid to sell particular foods. They are a business, they sell things, which they buy at wholesale and sell at retail prices and make a profit, just like every other retail business including Zoo plus. The reason a lot of vets sell Royal Canin and Hills pet range is because they also sell the veterinary range so have a relationship with the reps. FYI my vets don't sell either pet range, but do sell other dry foods such as Propac.

As for using LOL, do a search in this forum and you may get some idea of the history and nonsense that forum users have had to put up with in the past. I thought it was funny, I guess it's subjective.

Cherry Blossom

Lads, I think the issues with derivitaves are mainly twofold. Firstly, they come from whatever animal is available at the time, they may be chicken in one batch of food and turkey in another batch of the same brand of food. In these days when food allergies in dogs is so common it is important to know what protein source you are feeding your pet. The second issue is that foods containing derivitaves generally don't contain any named meats meaning you are only feeding hooves and beaks etc and none of the nutritious meaty parts of the animal, this in no way mimics a natural diet for dogs.

I feed Acana, it says on the bag its based on the whole prey model. The dogs here are thriving on it. Whole prey model seems to be the newest buzz phrase. I'm sure thinking on the matter will change a couple more times before we are done. It's only a few years since burns was held to be the holy grail of dog food full of rice and oats it is. Thankfully there are always new brands comming on the market and new theories on dog food. We should just be thankful there is so much choice.

Choc Chip

The Wild Goose wrote: »

Just to refer to the OP question specifically....
The Naturo I mentioned in the previous post costs €10 for eight 400g trays.
So at €10 for 3.2kg, Twelve Kg would work out at €38.40

They have lots of different flavours, have a 60% meat content, and some of them are available 'grain-free' for hypo-allergic dogs?

This works out at half the price she's currently paying!

I know you're aware, but in case someone else is reading this: you can't directly compare the price of wet food per kg and the price of dry food per kg.



The recommended amount fed for my 30kg dog (I've assumed lowest activity levels and recommended feeding amounts) would be:

1. Dry food (from the back of a pack): 329g/day

2. Naturo (lowest amount on their website): about 1400g per day
3. Raw (2.5% body weight): 750g per day


If I have to feed circa 4x naturo compared to dry food by weight, the equivalent amount of naturo to a 12kg bag of dry food would cost €153.60 (using your above cost of naturo).

The Wild Goose

muddypaws wrote: »

But your advice is incorrect. We live in the EU, not America, meat and animal derivatives does not include road kill or diseased animals. Dogs were domesticated because, among other things, they eat the parts of animals that we generally don't, i.e. derivatives.

The two foods you posted, the first ingredient of bison, doesn't say dry, so was it weighed before being dehydrated? If so, there will appear to be more of it in the food than there actually is, as meat contains a lot of water. Once the water is removed, it will move down the ingredient list, but there is no legislation about whether ingredients have to be dry or not.

And as for that nonsense about vets being paid to sell particular foods. They are a business, they sell things, which they buy at wholesale and sell at retail prices and make a profit, just like every other retail business including Zoo plus. The reason a lot of vets sell Royal Canin and Hills pet range is because they also sell the veterinary range so have a relationship with the reps. FYI my vets don't sell either pet range, but do sell other dry foods such as Propac.

As for using LOL, do a search in this forum and you may get some idea of the history and nonsense that forum users have had to put up with in the past. I thought it was funny, I guess it's subjective.

Your argument regarding wet or dry ingredients may have had substance if it wasn't for the fact that you seem to have ignored that the second ingredient in TOTW is also meat (dried lamb) as is the third (dried chicken), moving bison down the list.
So using your criteria the contents of TOTW are:
1st dried lamb, 2nd dried chicken, with bison somewhere further down.
RC by comparison has Corn as it's 1st, 3rd and 8th ingredients.
Would you care to comment as to which one in your opinion is more suitable for dogs?

The "nonsense" you refer to regarding vets is actually correct.
Obviously vets are entitled to their mark-up and profit for whatever they sell.
However they are incentivized to exclusively stock just one brand of dog food, and to push varieties of that brand as being the ideal solution to every eating issue, undernourished, overweight, sensitive tummy etc.
This is irrespective of the quality of the food, as demonstrated by the majority of vets exclusively stocking Royal Canin.

FYI it was a vet who told me this, when I asked them why so many vets stock only one dog food, and not a particularly healthy one either.

The Wild Goose

DBB wrote: »

Folks, it is a requirement of this forum that users report posts they've an issue with, rather than taking matters into their own hands.
It is also a requirement that posters are respectful towards one another.

The Wild Goose, on this particular subject, I will say that there are so, so many threads and posts about feeding dry and/or raw, and about how to discern good quality wet and dry foods, so with all due respect, this subject has been rather well covered in this forum.
I have to say, I find the tone of your posts a little soapboxy and rather forcefully lecturing on a subject that many on the forum are exceptionally well versed on. By all means, make your point, but why not do a forum search so that you can see it's all been done before.
You may also learn from reading previous threads on the subject that not everyone has the budget to afford the top-grade foods, and hundreds of thousands of dogs do perfectly well, living long and happy lives, on the more middle-of-the-road foods. I fear that the tone of your posts puts you in danger of making dog-owners-on-a-budget feel guilty or inadequate.
So, can we all please recognise that whilst food is quite a divisive issue for some, please bear in mind that different things work for different people... Food is not on one-size-fits-all subject, and nobody should be made feel bad because they can't afford the very best.
Thanks,
DBB

Firstly, your criticism of my introduction of 'raw' into the thread is incorrect.
I was merely responding to tk123's remarks regarding raw, in which they appeared to suggest I was unaware of raw feeding.
I was replying that in fact I do have experience in this area, and I myself also mentioned the fact that the Op's question was about kibble, not raw.

So if this is an issue with you, you're directing your criticism at the wrong person and should instead be admonishing tk123 who introduced 'raw' into the thread.

Secondly, this thread was about a particular brand of kibble (Royal Canin) and the OP seeking alternatives. If you check my posts you will see that the main point throughout is that people should study the list of ingredients.

This applies to all budgets, big and small.

To encourage people to forget about the advertising slogans and instead focus on the ingredient list is not in my opinion "soapboxy"
Considering there were other members making at least as "soapboxy" posts as I if not more so, I fail to see why you single out me for a lecture. Surely a moderator is supposed to be unbiased, otherwise what's the point?

Your presumption that people posting on this form are well informed and educated about dog food ingredients is not borne out by the fact some are discussing spending €70 on a bag of corn based kibble.

I presumed the whole objective of this forum was to discuss suggestions and ideas which promote responsible dog keeping.

Frankly your eagerness to jump into a thread and admonish a member (incorrectly, see above) in a post which contained no heated arguments or insults, or anything apart from a discussion I would regard as micro-management.

I presume I will be banned from this forum for daring to question the moderators interjection, but I'm not prepared to suffer inaccurate accusations or be singled out for unjustified criticism so, so be it.

Hellrazer

Wild goose don't post in this thread again.
If you have an issue with moderation take it to either pms or the help desk.