Melbourne Cup

Mostly Harmless

BumperD wrote: »

Guardian is a rag of a paper

Whatever you may think about the paper as a whole, Greg Wood and Chris Cook are two of the best racing journalists going tbh

zimmermania

FatRat wrote: »

Rag or not, I think it's fair. On the coverage I watched earlier the commentators made a big deal about how the horse looked and was sweating up - to the point where they even discussed his well-being before the race.

Far from being a rag the Guardian is owned by Scott Trust LTD which exists to secure the financial and editorial independence of the Guardian newspaper and it would be no harm if more newspapers had the independence of the Guardian.

BumperD

It’s rag for sure.

So they wanted to highlight cliffs of Moher fatally breaking down?

To end does that serve?

BumperD

zimmermania wrote: »

Far from being a rag the Guardian is owned by Scott Trust LTD which exists to secure the financial and editorial independence of the Guardian newspaper and it would be no harm if more newspapers had the independence of the Guardian.

Sure you might as well quote the rest of Wikipedia you lifted that from Zimmer ( ps well done on sale of horse you bagged a nice profit zimmer)


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guardian

Very next paragraph...

“The paper's readership is generally on the mainstream left of British political opinion.[3][4] The newspaper's reputation as a platform for liberal and left-wing editorial has led to the use of the "Guardian reader" and "Guardianista" as often (but not always) pejorative epithets for those of left-leaning or politically correct tendencies.[5][6][7]”

For fear of going completely off topic I’ll stop at that on the guardian.

My point was what in God’s name good can come of highlighting the death of a horse? Genuine question

Mostly Harmless

BumperD wrote: »

It’s rag for sure.

So they wanted to highlight cliffs of Moher fatally breaking down?

To end does that serve?

So we should pretend it did not happen?

FWIW it was a Melbourne based Guardian "normal journo" who did the blog and not any horse journos and he was simply highlighting that a large portion of Australian population find this difficult to marry with the national obsession regarding the race.

BumperD

Mostly Harmless wrote: »

So we should pretend it did not happen?

FWIW it was a Melbourne based Guardian "normal journo" who did the blog and not any horse journos and he was simply highlighting that a large portion of Australian population find this difficult to marry with the national obsession regarding the race.

No one suggested that. Did someone pretend it didn’t happen? I saw it covered plenty.

What’s a normal journalist? One pushing an agenda? ( we all know what that agenda is, they want the sport banned). There is only one logical ending if those rags are allowed push their agenda unchallenged. They want to piece by piece pick away at the sport until it’s banned.

Anyway glad you clarified it’s the Australian version of the radical left leaning uk rag

TheRiverman

Just wondering how much the long distance travel takes out of some horses.I know they are well looked after ,but travelling in a plane for all those hours is not easy on any animal.
We don't see many Australian horses coming to Europe for big races.I am not big into in horse racing,but Black Caviar is the only high profile one I remember in recent years.

Mysterypunter

TheRiverman wrote: »

Just wondering how much the long distance travel takes out of some horses.I know they are well looked after ,but travelling in a plane for all those hours is not easy on any animal.
We don't see many Australian horses coming to Europe for big races.I am not big into in horse racing,but Black Caviar is the only high profile one I remember in recent years.

Choisir as well

Mostly Harmless

BumperD wrote: »

No one suggested that. Did someone pretend it didn’t happen? I saw it covered plenty.

What’s a normal journalist? One pushing an agenda? ( we all know what that agenda is, they want the sport banned). There is only one logical ending if those rags are allowed push their agenda unchallenged. They want to piece by piece pick away at the sport until it’s banned.

Anyway glad you clarified it’s the Australian version of the radical left leaning uk rag

I am sensing that you may have entered into this debate with a certain amount of bias...

Guardian's horse racing coverage is very good, they have two fulltime journalists on their payroll dedicated to horse racing - hardly the actions of a publication that wants to bring down horse racing with their liberal leftie snowflake agenda.

Not quite the same as when actual rags ran the pictures of Wigmore Hall getting the bullet but anyway

The Tetrarch

TheRiverman wrote: »

Just wondering how much the long distance travel takes out of some horses.I know they are well looked after ,but travelling in a plane for all those hours is not easy on any animal.
We don't see many Australian horses coming to Europe for big races.I am not big into in horse racing,but Black Caviar is the only high profile one I remember in recent years.

Stallions have been shuttling to Australia from Europe for about thirty years i.e. spending the northern hemisphere spring at stud in Europe, then going to stud in Australia for the second half of the year.

Horses that go to race in Australia do not get off the plane and race.
They will be in quarantine in Europe and in Australia.

Cliffsofmoher (in Australia The Cliffsofmoher) ran in Sandown, England on 7th July 2018.
His next run was in Caulfield, Australia, 98 days later on 13th October.
Then he ran again at Caulfield on 20th October.
He ran in the Melbourne Cup on 6th November.

So You Think came from Australia to race in Europe.
As did Takeover Target, Miss Andretti, Scenic Blast, Starspangledbanner, Choisir.

A few of the win and place horses in the Melbourne Cup that raced in Europe and Australia in recent years (2010 and later).
Red Cadeaux, Vintage Crop, Media Puzzle, Rekindling, Johannes Vermeer, Hartnell, Trip To Paris, Protectionist, Mount Athos, Simenon, Green Moon, Fiorente, Dunaden, Americain.

Travelling horses is safe, and as you can see from the above list of 14 Europeans who won or placed in the Melbourne Cup since 2010 they are not physical wrecks who walk off a plane in the morning and onto a racecourse that afternoon.

Mostly Harmless

The Tetrarch wrote: »

Stallions have been shuttling to Australia from Europe for about thirty years i.e. spending the northern hemisphere spring at stud in Europe, then going to stud in Australia for the second half of the year.

Horses that go to race in Australia do not get off the plane and race.
They will be in quarantine in Europe and in Australia.

Cliffsofmoher (in Australia The Cliffsofmoher) ran in Sandown, England on 7th July 2018.
His next run was in Caulfield, Australia, 98 days later on 13th October.
Then he ran again at Caulfield on 20th October.
He ran in the Melbourne Cup on 6th November.

So You Think came from Australia to race in Europe.
As did Takeover Target, Miss Andretti, Scenic Blast, Starspangledbanner, Choisir.

A few of the win and place horses in the Melbourne Cup that raced in Europe and Australia in recent years (2010 and later).
Red Cadeaux, Vintage Crop, Media Puzzle, Rekindling, Johannes Vermeer, Hartnell, Trip To Paris, Protectionist, Mount Athos, Simenon, Green Moon, Fiorente, Dunaden, Americain.

Travelling horses is safe, and as you can see from the above list of 14 Europeans who won or placed in the Melbourne Cup since 2010 they are not physical wrecks who walk off a plane in the morning and onto a racecourse that afternoon.

Red Cadeaux was euthanised after running in MC in 2015 tbf, I agree travelling horses is safe but possibly not best example

BumperD

Mostly Harmless wrote: »

I am sensing that you may have entered into this debate with a certain amount of bias...

Guardian's horse racing coverage is very good, they have two fulltime journalists on their payroll dedicated to horse racing - hardly the actions of a publication that wants to bring down horse racing with their liberal leftie snowflake agenda.

Not quite the same as when actual rags ran the pictures of Wigmore Hall getting the bullet but anyway

You’re 100% spot on. I have zero time for the left leaning guardian.

Back on topic. Still not sure what the furore over COM. As stated, his unfortunate death was widely reported.

Mostly Harmless

BumperD wrote: »

You’re 100% spot on. I have zero time for the left leaning guardian.

Back on topic. Still not sure what the furore over COM. As stated, his unfortunate death was widely reported.

Just think it's good to differentiate between decent publications with high standards of journalistic integrity and bonafide rags that run unsubtantiated nonsense regardless of whether one agrees with their general political leanings...

Re the furore, not sure there really is that much? Horse losing it's life in one of biggest races in world will always get publicity and it's probably because TV comms highlighted that horse was looking agitated pre race and he then broke down and lost his life in the race, it's probably just variance though - either way the horse is now dead and that's that.

At the end of the day, horses regularly die when racing, if you're into horse racing you have to accept it for what it is and level with it, but the wider public are always going to find it difficult to accept.

BumperD

Fair point. I wasn’t having a swipe at the g’ s two UK horse journalists so happy to clarify that if those two chaps are reading this ( doubtful- I’m sure they have better things to be doing )

The Tetrarch

Mostly Harmless wrote: »

Red Cadeaux was euthanised after running in MC in 2015 tbf, I agree travelling horses is safe but possibly not best example

He was euthanised on 21st November, 18 days after the race.
As a 9 year old flat runner with 54 races Red Cadeaux probably had little racing value, and as a gelding nil breeding value.
The owner probably had a decision to make - should he pay heavy veterinary costs to save a horse with nil value.

You get this outcry from people with little knowledge of horses.
Do they think when horses finish racing they are released into the wild (where's that?) or go to a retirement home?
They are outraged when one horse is put down on their television but ignore the thousands of horses that are put down out of their sight.
The faux concern is like a #MeToo for horses.

Mostly Harmless

The Tetrarch wrote: »

He was euthanised on 21st November, 18 days after the race.
As a 9 year old flat runner with 54 races Red Cadeaux probably had little racing value, and as a gelding nil breeding value.
The owner probably had a decision to make - should he pay heavy veterinary costs to save a horse with nil value.

You get this outcry from people with little knowledge of horses.
Do they think when horses finish racing they are released into the wild (where's that?) or go to a retirement home?
They are outraged when one horse is put down on their television but ignore the thousands of horses that are put down out of their sight.
The faux concern is like a #MeToo for horses.

Like I said, I agree - just didn't think using a horse that died after running in the Melbourne Cup was a great example.

Do think racing needs to a better job of the PR around these things, horses do die as a by product of the sport and that is objectionable to people without much knowledge of racing/horses. The Grand National has done a pretty good job around this IMO.

Imhof Tank

The Tetrarch wrote: »

He was euthanised on 21st November, 18 days after the race.
As a 9 year old flat runner with 54 races Red Cadeaux probably had little racing value, and as a gelding nil breeding value.
The owner probably had a decision to make - should he pay heavy veterinary costs to save a horse with nil value.

You get this outcry from people with little knowledge of horses.
Do they think when horses finish racing they are released into the wild (where's that?) or go to a retirement home?
They are outraged when one horse is put down on their television but ignore the thousands of horses that are put down out of their sight.
The faux concern is like a #MeToo for horses.

I know all about factory-ing horses and don't get sentimental but that is absolute rubbish.

Red Cadeaux won $8million in his career for connections, of course he was booked for a retirement field. On the vet bills, he did actually have the surgery it just didn't work out. Do you really think owners would begrudge a 10 grand vet bill for a $8million winner?

The Tetrarch

Imhof Tank wrote: »

I know all about factory-ing horses and don't get sentimental but that is absolute rubbish.

Red Cadeaux won $8million in his career for connections, of course he was booked for a retirement field. On the vet bills, he did actually have the surgery it just didn't work out. Do you really think owners would begrudge a 10 grand vet bill for a $8million winner?

I do not know what influenced the owner's decision.
Reports say there was a loss of blood flow to the injured area.

It was reported he was due to go to the Living legends "Rest Home for Retired Champions", Melbourne, entry fee $15 adults, extra $10 to meet the champions.

Sicalade, dam of Sea-Bird, the greatest horse of the 20th century, was sold to a butcher for the equivalent of £100 ... and thus the residents of St Andelys found themselves eating the dam of Sea Bird when he was only 19 months old.

Imhof Tank

The Tetrarch wrote: »

I do not know what influenced the owner's decision.
Reports say there was a loss of blood flow to the injured area.

It was reported he was due to go to the Living legends "Rest Home for Retired Champions", Melbourne, entry fee $15 adults, extra $10 to meet the champions.

Sicalade, dam of Sea-Bird, the greatest horse of the 20th century, was sold to a butcher for the equivalent of £100 ... and thus the residents of St Andelys found themselves eating the dam of Sea Bird when he was only 19 months old.

The horse was beyond saving. You posted to the effect that he didn't get treatment because of his nil value and why would the owner throw money down the drain.

As I said before I don't get sentimental about horses but there absolutely is an unwritten code of honour in racing that a good horse such as Red Cadeaux will get the chance to see out his days in a field, or hunting or showing, like Don Cossack is doing now for example.

Why did they sell Sea Bird's dam for meat money? Because, at the time, they thought she was no good I suggest.

Don't follow your point about entry fees to the legends retirement place. The Irish National Stud charges €12.50 a visit.

The Tetrarch

Imhof Tank wrote: »

Don't follow your point about entry fees to the legends retirement place. The Irish National Stud charges €12.50 a visit.

The moderator can reprimand me if I posted unacceptable content.

The point you might accept is that the owner was sending the horse to a place that charges entry fees. That indicates that the upkeep of the horse is linked to entrance fees, and brings into question the idea that the horse is getting a retirement he deserves financed by the former owner.
If you have facts about how much the owner was going to contribute to the retirement of his horse you can post them here.

The Irish National Stud on their website say they get 120,000 visitors a year.
The retired horses are an attraction. I met them.

Perhaps forumites would like to read on this Wiki page what happened to one of the greatest Irish stallions, Birdcatcher ("from whom most Thoroughbreds descend today"), sire of winners of all five English Classics.
Read The death of Birdcatcher

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birdcatcher_(horse)

Mostly Harmless

Doubt that Ronald Arculli is on the breadline somehow, horse was probably just being put in a legends retirement place because the horse was a bit of a legend?

Imhof Tank

The Tetrarch wrote: »

The moderator can reprimand me if I posted unacceptable content.


The Irish National Stud on their website say they get 120,000 visitors a year.
The retired horses are an attraction. I met them.

Not "unacceptable" content - you just posted something I disagreed with, not a boards crime to get a bit of debate going now and then?

What you say on the Irish National Stud - surely you are proving the point. You and the 120000 others paid to see the retired racehorses there. Around the same fee as at the Legends place in Australia? What's the difference then between the owners of Hurricane Fly retiring him to the National Stud and an Aussie owner sending a horse to Legends - are they not both pretty standard options? You just seem very suspicious of the Red Cadeaux owner and his motives for some reason.

Mostly Harmless

Worth taking a look at Tom Kerr's terrible opinions on this subject in today's Racing Post (a rag with an agenda)

BumperD

Just opinions, don’t take them personally. Didn’t read it as it’s subscription only.

Can you share his opinion?

Mostly Harmless

https://twitter.com/djebel/status/1060730110959992833

The Mig

Kerr writes such sh*te. His piece a few months ago on banning the whip was nonsense too

kiers47

While i didnt agree with Tom Kerr's piece on the whip. To say it was nonsense is complete rubbish. It was his opinion and it was well written. I didnt see much wrong with the piece other than i didnt agree with it. The problem with that piece was the headline of the article which he had no part in.
"Time for racing to accept the inevitable: the whip will have to go"

BumperD

Hardly a prize winning opinion piece. A flat race run on a premier track. I guess they can if there are any trends. Any reason he chose to highlight only the last 6 yrs? What about the previous 10, 20, 50 running’s?

Anyway if they can reduce fatalities great. Don’t want to give more fodder to those uneducated outrage enthusiasts wanting an outright ban on the sport. You don’t have to google to far to see some reactions. I’ve found those expressions of outrage, which we’ve become accustomed to in this online social media world, often have bigger skeletons to hide. The bigger the insecurity the bigger the outrage expressed. That’s for another day.

zimmermania

BumperD wrote: »

Sure you might as well quote the rest of Wikipedia you lifted that from Zimmer ( ps well done on sale of horse you bagged a nice profit zimmer)


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guardian

Very next paragraph...

“The paper's readership is generally on the mainstream left of British political opinion.[3][4] The newspaper's reputation as a platform for liberal and left-wing editorial has led to the use of the "Guardian reader" and "Guardianista" as often (but not always) pejorative epithets for those of left-leaning or politically correct tendencies.[5][6][7]”

For fear of going completely off topic I’ll stop at that on the guardian.

My point was what in God’s name good can come of highlighting the death of a horse? Genuine question

It was not in relation to the piece on the death of a horse I was posting about.it was the assertion that The Guardian was a rag that is disagreed with.
More and more papers and magazines fall into the hands of large,mainly conservative consortium's and an independent left of centre press is essential as my hero Phi Bull often pointed out.

BumperD

zimmermania wrote: »

It was not in relation to the piece on the death of a horse I was posting about.it was the assertion that The Guardian was a rag that is disagreed with.
More and more papers and magazines fall into the hands of large,mainly conservative consortium's and an independent left of centre press is essential as my hero Phi Bull often pointed out.

Fair enough