Melbourne Cup

kiers47

Anyone have any views on the big race. Some massive British/Irish interest this year.
Seems every year our hand is getting stronger and it looks like the Aussies are up against it to gain the crown back.

Im not really sure is there a bet.
Yucatan is an absolute yak of a yoke im not sure what he beat last time but he looked impressive so maybe the different style/climate has turned him around. Im not sure id have him favourite. He certainly seems a bit short to me.
I thought the Ebor winner would be fav if im honest he more or less won it on the bridle. Which is absolutely ridiculous when you think how competitive that was.
My worry for him is i dont think Jim Crowley is the most tactically astute jockey and this race can often be turned into a bit of a cat and mouse type affair. But he is more than capable so i think i may have a token bet on him for a bit of fun. Cross Counter is also interesting but im not sure id be backing a 3yo in this but he does get a nice weight concession.

PP also going 6 places for anyone having a bet and wants a bit of interest. I think ill shop around and go win only Muntahaa for just a 0.5point sized bet.

irishgoat

I won't have a bet in the race but I do agree with you with Muntahaa. If I was having a bet it would be that horse but to me it's like a lottery.

kiers47

It is certainly a lottery and i know nothing about the Australian form tbh. It wont bother me to much win or lose tbh.

posturingpat

Nakeeta ran well in it last year so will be no shock to the system to him like it could be for some others, is owned by an Australian crowd now so likely been targeting the race and is available at big prices. Ew bet for me.

madmoose

Nakeeta is around 66/1 ew 6 places and one firm is 100/1. Seems too big so ill do him ew myself.

tryfix

It's a baffling race, we could convince ourselves that half the field could win it and we'd still be only throwing darts because it's out of our comfort zone.

Yucatan winning a race of this magnitude seems ridiculous on his flakey European form, but Johannes Vermeer came pretty close to winning it last year for the same team and he was a bit flakey as well.


Out of them all the ones that I'd most like to see winning are the Godolphin pair Best Solution and Cross Counter while of O'Brien's Rostropovich and The Cliffs Of Moher are an interesting pair of oddballs that have hit the woodwork plenty of times.

Nulty

Backed Nakeeta last year, same again. Got the 100 a few days ago. Never picked the winner of this.

AnneFrank

Went for cliffs of moher

gillamandango

Magic Circle says hello? Small bit of excess weight maybe but a massive chance and by reading around, connections are supremely confident.

posturingpat

gillamandango wrote: »

Magic Circle says hello? Small bit of excess weight maybe but a massive chance and by reading around, connections are supremely confident.

Did Koukash not say he'd run around in a g string if it wins? Hardly sounds a ringing endorsement. Berry fair sick he didn't get to go over I'd say.

gillamandango

Something along those lines yes but can’t knock the last two wins. How you would go about getting the PMU equivalent for this race, would taking SP not be Uk SP?

kiers47

Boyles usually allow you to bet the tote price in most jurisdictions. Just change the price to DIV

mailburner

backed cross counter ew at 8/1 (5places)

smaller bet on muntahaa win at 12/1 bf
took singles on cross counter to be placed at 4.2 (3places bf) and
muntahaa to be placed at 3.6 (4places bf)

good luck all

Francie Barrett

Best Solution at 11/1 surely the pick of all these. Ticks all the boxes in terms of trip, going, and form.

Francie Barrett

tryfix wrote: »

O'Brien's Rostropovich and The Cliffs Of Moher are an interesting pair of oddballs that have hit the woodwork plenty of times.

3 year olds have a pretty woeful record in this race unfortunately.

The Tetrarch

Small bets A Prince Of Arran at 25s and Ace High 120s.

irishgoat

The last winner I backed in the race was media puzzle back in 02 or 03. I will say one thing about the Oz racing, if a horse is gambled on, 9/10 it will win. I know a guy who moved from Ireland to Oz and working in Sportingbet. Powers own it. He moved from here to Oz a good few years ago. He worked for powers here they offered him a job over there. The ozzies love their horse racing.

kiers47

irishgoat wrote: »

The last winner I backed in the race was media puzzle back in 02 or 03. I will say one thing about the Oz racing, if a horse is gambled on, 9/10 it will win. I know a guy who moved from Ireland to Oz and working in Sportingbet. Powers own it. He moved from here to Oz a good few years ago. He worked for powers here they offered him a job over there. The ozzies love their horse racing.

Is sportingbet not owned by William hill?

kiers47

This is gonna be run in an absolute bog by the sounds of what I'm reading on Twitter.

irishgoat

kiers47 wrote: »

Is sportingbet not owned by William hill?

I highly doubt it unless it was purchased in the last year or 2. I know the guy years, he worked in the airton road building in Tallaght. They offered him the position over there. I'm in constant contact with him and he never mentioned a buy out.

kiers47

Sporting bet as in sportingbet.com is definitely owned by William hill

irishgoat

Kiers47 I'm sorry I said it wrongly, this is the site https://www.sportsbet.com.au

kiers47

Ah ok. Was wondering if I missed something.

irishgoat

No it was my error I apologize. In the past you could browse the site but now they are after putting it geographically so you'd have to use a vpn I think, but nothing of interest really. They do have the form of the horses in detail in big races but no use to be honest.

irishgoat

Just trying to have a look at some of the form for the oz racing. The 1.10 @ Flemington, if I base this wholly on the UK racing I'd say the fav Fifty stars is very vulnerable. The 22 in it's form looks deceiving to me. It's about 2.80'ish. I'm going to tip my toe in the water and lay this and see how how it goes. I do bet on the oz racing but I don't study it much.

Mostly Harmless

irishgoat wrote: »

The last winner I backed in the race was media puzzle back in 02 or 03. I will say one thing about the Oz racing, if a horse is gambled on, 9/10 it will win. I know a guy who moved from Ireland to Oz and working in Sportingbet. Powers own it. He moved from here to Oz a good few years ago. He worked for powers here they offered him a job over there. The ozzies love their horse racing.

Aussies love gambling (and in general are pretty terrible punters), betting to a 140% book and only paying 3 places in a 24 runner handicap is pretty rum.

Francie Barrett

Cliffsofmoher a fatality

kiers47

Francie Barrett wrote: »

Cliffsofmoher a fatality

Yes watched it this morning. For all the horse got a fair bit of criticism he was still a high class horse. So fairly gutting to go out on such a big stage.

A race dominated by the Europeans again. I watched the race a few times now and while Cross Counter had to go so wide in the straight. Things went a little to perfect for Marmelo. He got there about a furlong to soon and i thought he was a little unlucky, That being said the winner is a very good horse and would have been unfortunate for him if he didnt get there. Definitely the best 2 horses in the race to me.
Not sure about 2m4f in Ascot but the winner would be a cracking cup horse for next year. Probably they could even start him in something like the coronation cup in epsom. Which would be right up his street i think.

HandsomeBob

Francie Barrett wrote: »

Cliffsofmoher a fatality

Guardian fairly scathing of the lack of coverage given to the fatality during their live updates this morning.

Horse didn't look right before the race allegedly.

BumperD

HandsomeBob wrote: »

Guardian fairly scathing of the lack of coverage given to the fatality during their live updates this morning.

Horse didn't look right before the race allegedly.

Guardian is a rag of a paper

FatRat

BumperD wrote: »

Guardian is a rag of a paper

Rag or not, I think it's fair. On the coverage I watched earlier the commentators made a big deal about how the horse looked and was sweating up - to the point where they even discussed his well-being before the race.

Mostly Harmless

BumperD wrote: »

Guardian is a rag of a paper

Whatever you may think about the paper as a whole, Greg Wood and Chris Cook are two of the best racing journalists going tbh

zimmermania

FatRat wrote: »

Rag or not, I think it's fair. On the coverage I watched earlier the commentators made a big deal about how the horse looked and was sweating up - to the point where they even discussed his well-being before the race.

Far from being a rag the Guardian is owned by Scott Trust LTD which exists to secure the financial and editorial independence of the Guardian newspaper and it would be no harm if more newspapers had the independence of the Guardian.

BumperD

It’s rag for sure.

So they wanted to highlight cliffs of Moher fatally breaking down?

To end does that serve?

BumperD

zimmermania wrote: »

Far from being a rag the Guardian is owned by Scott Trust LTD which exists to secure the financial and editorial independence of the Guardian newspaper and it would be no harm if more newspapers had the independence of the Guardian.

Sure you might as well quote the rest of Wikipedia you lifted that from Zimmer ( ps well done on sale of horse you bagged a nice profit zimmer)


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guardian

Very next paragraph...

“The paper's readership is generally on the mainstream left of British political opinion.[3][4] The newspaper's reputation as a platform for liberal and left-wing editorial has led to the use of the "Guardian reader" and "Guardianista" as often (but not always) pejorative epithets for those of left-leaning or politically correct tendencies.[5][6][7]”

For fear of going completely off topic I’ll stop at that on the guardian.

My point was what in God’s name good can come of highlighting the death of a horse? Genuine question

Mostly Harmless

BumperD wrote: »

It’s rag for sure.

So they wanted to highlight cliffs of Moher fatally breaking down?

To end does that serve?

So we should pretend it did not happen?

FWIW it was a Melbourne based Guardian "normal journo" who did the blog and not any horse journos and he was simply highlighting that a large portion of Australian population find this difficult to marry with the national obsession regarding the race.

BumperD

Mostly Harmless wrote: »

So we should pretend it did not happen?

FWIW it was a Melbourne based Guardian "normal journo" who did the blog and not any horse journos and he was simply highlighting that a large portion of Australian population find this difficult to marry with the national obsession regarding the race.

No one suggested that. Did someone pretend it didn’t happen? I saw it covered plenty.

What’s a normal journalist? One pushing an agenda? ( we all know what that agenda is, they want the sport banned). There is only one logical ending if those rags are allowed push their agenda unchallenged. They want to piece by piece pick away at the sport until it’s banned.

Anyway glad you clarified it’s the Australian version of the radical left leaning uk rag

TheRiverman

Just wondering how much the long distance travel takes out of some horses.I know they are well looked after ,but travelling in a plane for all those hours is not easy on any animal.
We don't see many Australian horses coming to Europe for big races.I am not big into in horse racing,but Black Caviar is the only high profile one I remember in recent years.

Mysterypunter

TheRiverman wrote: »

Just wondering how much the long distance travel takes out of some horses.I know they are well looked after ,but travelling in a plane for all those hours is not easy on any animal.
We don't see many Australian horses coming to Europe for big races.I am not big into in horse racing,but Black Caviar is the only high profile one I remember in recent years.

Choisir as well

Mostly Harmless

BumperD wrote: »

No one suggested that. Did someone pretend it didn’t happen? I saw it covered plenty.

What’s a normal journalist? One pushing an agenda? ( we all know what that agenda is, they want the sport banned). There is only one logical ending if those rags are allowed push their agenda unchallenged. They want to piece by piece pick away at the sport until it’s banned.

Anyway glad you clarified it’s the Australian version of the radical left leaning uk rag

I am sensing that you may have entered into this debate with a certain amount of bias...

Guardian's horse racing coverage is very good, they have two fulltime journalists on their payroll dedicated to horse racing - hardly the actions of a publication that wants to bring down horse racing with their liberal leftie snowflake agenda.

Not quite the same as when actual rags ran the pictures of Wigmore Hall getting the bullet but anyway

The Tetrarch

TheRiverman wrote: »

Just wondering how much the long distance travel takes out of some horses.I know they are well looked after ,but travelling in a plane for all those hours is not easy on any animal.
We don't see many Australian horses coming to Europe for big races.I am not big into in horse racing,but Black Caviar is the only high profile one I remember in recent years.

Stallions have been shuttling to Australia from Europe for about thirty years i.e. spending the northern hemisphere spring at stud in Europe, then going to stud in Australia for the second half of the year.

Horses that go to race in Australia do not get off the plane and race.
They will be in quarantine in Europe and in Australia.

Cliffsofmoher (in Australia The Cliffsofmoher) ran in Sandown, England on 7th July 2018.
His next run was in Caulfield, Australia, 98 days later on 13th October.
Then he ran again at Caulfield on 20th October.
He ran in the Melbourne Cup on 6th November.

So You Think came from Australia to race in Europe.
As did Takeover Target, Miss Andretti, Scenic Blast, Starspangledbanner, Choisir.

A few of the win and place horses in the Melbourne Cup that raced in Europe and Australia in recent years (2010 and later).
Red Cadeaux, Vintage Crop, Media Puzzle, Rekindling, Johannes Vermeer, Hartnell, Trip To Paris, Protectionist, Mount Athos, Simenon, Green Moon, Fiorente, Dunaden, Americain.

Travelling horses is safe, and as you can see from the above list of 14 Europeans who won or placed in the Melbourne Cup since 2010 they are not physical wrecks who walk off a plane in the morning and onto a racecourse that afternoon.

Mostly Harmless

The Tetrarch wrote: »

Stallions have been shuttling to Australia from Europe for about thirty years i.e. spending the northern hemisphere spring at stud in Europe, then going to stud in Australia for the second half of the year.

Horses that go to race in Australia do not get off the plane and race.
They will be in quarantine in Europe and in Australia.

Cliffsofmoher (in Australia The Cliffsofmoher) ran in Sandown, England on 7th July 2018.
His next run was in Caulfield, Australia, 98 days later on 13th October.
Then he ran again at Caulfield on 20th October.
He ran in the Melbourne Cup on 6th November.

So You Think came from Australia to race in Europe.
As did Takeover Target, Miss Andretti, Scenic Blast, Starspangledbanner, Choisir.

A few of the win and place horses in the Melbourne Cup that raced in Europe and Australia in recent years (2010 and later).
Red Cadeaux, Vintage Crop, Media Puzzle, Rekindling, Johannes Vermeer, Hartnell, Trip To Paris, Protectionist, Mount Athos, Simenon, Green Moon, Fiorente, Dunaden, Americain.

Travelling horses is safe, and as you can see from the above list of 14 Europeans who won or placed in the Melbourne Cup since 2010 they are not physical wrecks who walk off a plane in the morning and onto a racecourse that afternoon.

Red Cadeaux was euthanised after running in MC in 2015 tbf, I agree travelling horses is safe but possibly not best example

BumperD

Mostly Harmless wrote: »

I am sensing that you may have entered into this debate with a certain amount of bias...

Guardian's horse racing coverage is very good, they have two fulltime journalists on their payroll dedicated to horse racing - hardly the actions of a publication that wants to bring down horse racing with their liberal leftie snowflake agenda.

Not quite the same as when actual rags ran the pictures of Wigmore Hall getting the bullet but anyway

You’re 100% spot on. I have zero time for the left leaning guardian.

Back on topic. Still not sure what the furore over COM. As stated, his unfortunate death was widely reported.

Mostly Harmless

BumperD wrote: »

You’re 100% spot on. I have zero time for the left leaning guardian.

Back on topic. Still not sure what the furore over COM. As stated, his unfortunate death was widely reported.

Just think it's good to differentiate between decent publications with high standards of journalistic integrity and bonafide rags that run unsubtantiated nonsense regardless of whether one agrees with their general political leanings...

Re the furore, not sure there really is that much? Horse losing it's life in one of biggest races in world will always get publicity and it's probably because TV comms highlighted that horse was looking agitated pre race and he then broke down and lost his life in the race, it's probably just variance though - either way the horse is now dead and that's that.

At the end of the day, horses regularly die when racing, if you're into horse racing you have to accept it for what it is and level with it, but the wider public are always going to find it difficult to accept.

BumperD

Fair point. I wasn’t having a swipe at the g’ s two UK horse journalists so happy to clarify that if those two chaps are reading this ( doubtful- I’m sure they have better things to be doing )

The Tetrarch

Mostly Harmless wrote: »

Red Cadeaux was euthanised after running in MC in 2015 tbf, I agree travelling horses is safe but possibly not best example

He was euthanised on 21st November, 18 days after the race.
As a 9 year old flat runner with 54 races Red Cadeaux probably had little racing value, and as a gelding nil breeding value.
The owner probably had a decision to make - should he pay heavy veterinary costs to save a horse with nil value.

You get this outcry from people with little knowledge of horses.
Do they think when horses finish racing they are released into the wild (where's that?) or go to a retirement home?
They are outraged when one horse is put down on their television but ignore the thousands of horses that are put down out of their sight.
The faux concern is like a #MeToo for horses.

Mostly Harmless

The Tetrarch wrote: »

He was euthanised on 21st November, 18 days after the race.
As a 9 year old flat runner with 54 races Red Cadeaux probably had little racing value, and as a gelding nil breeding value.
The owner probably had a decision to make - should he pay heavy veterinary costs to save a horse with nil value.

You get this outcry from people with little knowledge of horses.
Do they think when horses finish racing they are released into the wild (where's that?) or go to a retirement home?
They are outraged when one horse is put down on their television but ignore the thousands of horses that are put down out of their sight.
The faux concern is like a #MeToo for horses.

Like I said, I agree - just didn't think using a horse that died after running in the Melbourne Cup was a great example.

Do think racing needs to a better job of the PR around these things, horses do die as a by product of the sport and that is objectionable to people without much knowledge of racing/horses. The Grand National has done a pretty good job around this IMO.

Imhof Tank

The Tetrarch wrote: »

He was euthanised on 21st November, 18 days after the race.
As a 9 year old flat runner with 54 races Red Cadeaux probably had little racing value, and as a gelding nil breeding value.
The owner probably had a decision to make - should he pay heavy veterinary costs to save a horse with nil value.

You get this outcry from people with little knowledge of horses.
Do they think when horses finish racing they are released into the wild (where's that?) or go to a retirement home?
They are outraged when one horse is put down on their television but ignore the thousands of horses that are put down out of their sight.
The faux concern is like a #MeToo for horses.

I know all about factory-ing horses and don't get sentimental but that is absolute rubbish.

Red Cadeaux won $8million in his career for connections, of course he was booked for a retirement field. On the vet bills, he did actually have the surgery it just didn't work out. Do you really think owners would begrudge a 10 grand vet bill for a $8million winner?

The Tetrarch

Imhof Tank wrote: »

I know all about factory-ing horses and don't get sentimental but that is absolute rubbish.

Red Cadeaux won $8million in his career for connections, of course he was booked for a retirement field. On the vet bills, he did actually have the surgery it just didn't work out. Do you really think owners would begrudge a 10 grand vet bill for a $8million winner?

I do not know what influenced the owner's decision.
Reports say there was a loss of blood flow to the injured area.

It was reported he was due to go to the Living legends "Rest Home for Retired Champions", Melbourne, entry fee $15 adults, extra $10 to meet the champions.

Sicalade, dam of Sea-Bird, the greatest horse of the 20th century, was sold to a butcher for the equivalent of £100 ... and thus the residents of St Andelys found themselves eating the dam of Sea Bird when he was only 19 months old.

Imhof Tank

The Tetrarch wrote: »

I do not know what influenced the owner's decision.
Reports say there was a loss of blood flow to the injured area.

It was reported he was due to go to the Living legends "Rest Home for Retired Champions", Melbourne, entry fee $15 adults, extra $10 to meet the champions.

Sicalade, dam of Sea-Bird, the greatest horse of the 20th century, was sold to a butcher for the equivalent of £100 ... and thus the residents of St Andelys found themselves eating the dam of Sea Bird when he was only 19 months old.

The horse was beyond saving. You posted to the effect that he didn't get treatment because of his nil value and why would the owner throw money down the drain.

As I said before I don't get sentimental about horses but there absolutely is an unwritten code of honour in racing that a good horse such as Red Cadeaux will get the chance to see out his days in a field, or hunting or showing, like Don Cossack is doing now for example.

Why did they sell Sea Bird's dam for meat money? Because, at the time, they thought she was no good I suggest.

Don't follow your point about entry fees to the legends retirement place. The Irish National Stud charges €12.50 a visit.

The Tetrarch

Imhof Tank wrote: »

Don't follow your point about entry fees to the legends retirement place. The Irish National Stud charges €12.50 a visit.

The moderator can reprimand me if I posted unacceptable content.

The point you might accept is that the owner was sending the horse to a place that charges entry fees. That indicates that the upkeep of the horse is linked to entrance fees, and brings into question the idea that the horse is getting a retirement he deserves financed by the former owner.
If you have facts about how much the owner was going to contribute to the retirement of his horse you can post them here.

The Irish National Stud on their website say they get 120,000 visitors a year.
The retired horses are an attraction. I met them.

Perhaps forumites would like to read on this Wiki page what happened to one of the greatest Irish stallions, Birdcatcher ("from whom most Thoroughbreds descend today"), sire of winners of all five English Classics.
Read The death of Birdcatcher

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birdcatcher_(horse)