Consent classes for Irish rugby team

professore

I have nothing much to say on this except that if the prospect of having your reputation and career destroyed and a possible jail sentence don't put you off then some consent classes certainly won't.

A case of shutting the door after the horse has bolted. I'm not sure of the value of consent classes - I see them similar to "drink responsibly" or "don't murder anyone" classes.

[url] https://m.independent.ie/sport/rugby/other-rugby/irfu-tackles-fallout-from-belfast-rape-trial-37491941.html[/url]

Collie D

Box ticking exercise.

Pretty much like the majority of training courses in the majority of companies.

Covers their asses and gives the HR department a sense of actually doing something

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Collie D wrote: »

Box ticking exercise.

Pretty much like the majority of training courses in the majority of companies.

Covers their asses and gives the HR department a sense of actually doing something

Precisely. No different to any business out there.


\thread.

CinemaGuy45

Collie D wrote: »

Box ticking exercise.

Pretty much like the majority of training courses in the majority of companies.

Covers their asses and gives the HR department a sense of actually doing something

Usually with a stupid video too.

sbsquarepants

professore wrote: »

I see them similar to "drink responsibly" or "don't murder anyone" classes.

One of the finest examples of real life irony I ever came across was a young woman passed out in a field at Oxygen wrapped in a drink aware banner!

As for the classes - probably won't do much good, but they can't hurt can they? Unfortunately there are some **** bags out there who for whatever reason do need to be told it's wrong to "take advantage" of women.

topper75

^^^
Classic image (Oxygen)!

Is 'telling them' going to fix such people though at this stage? I'm on the waste of time side of the fence on these initiatives.

jimgoose

I suppose such classes won't do any harm, and in the case of the sort of thicko who actually needs to be told these things, they might even do a little bit of good. I refer the gentle reader, however, to the comment of my own good lady when she heard about "Sexual Consent" classes in UCC some time back: "Oh for fuck sake, they have to get planning permission to have sex these days!" :pac::pac::pac:

Floppybits

Folks need to read this article seeing as Party season is coming up. 

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/niamh-horan-how-to-flirt-in-metoo-christmas-party-season-37489910.html

wexie

Floppybits wrote: »

Folks need to read this article seeing as Party season is coming up. 

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/niamh-horan-how-to-flirt-in-metoo-christmas-party-season-37489910.html

You mean literally ask a person: "Can I flirt with you?"

"Exactly," she says.

And they say romance isn't dead.....

Mrs OBumble

jimgoose wrote: »

I suppose such classes won't do any harm, and in the case of the sort of thicko who actually needs to be told these things, they might even do a little bit of good.:

Given that sport pretty much exists to keep thickos occupied between wars, I'd say that these classes are well targetted.

jimgoose

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Given that sport pretty much exists to keep thickos occupied between wars, I'd say that these classes are well targetted.

I think that, with the best will in the world, is a somewhat reductionist view of sport, at the very least.

ClanofLams

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Given that sport pretty much exists to keep thickos occupied between wars, I'd say that these classes are well targetted.

What a moronic viewpoint.

Floppybits

wexie wrote: »

Floppybits wrote: »

Folks need to read this article seeing as Party season is coming up. 

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/niamh-horan-how-to-flirt-in-metoo-christmas-party-season-37489910.html

You mean literally ask a person: "Can I flirt with you?"

"Exactly," she says.

And they say romance isn't dead.....

I don't know if that is a tongue in cheek article or if she is serious.  Can you imagine approaching someone and saying "Can I Flirt with you?", I know some of my female friends would look at ya as if ya have 2 heads and either wet themselves laughing or tell ya "F**k off, ya weirdo".

FunLover18

As previous posters have said, there's no harm in it. In fact, even they are being made to do it, it sets a good example. I think it was mentioned in the thread specifically dedicated to the Jackson trial but the Seconds Captain podcast about consent with Sadlier (who runs similar programmes with schools) did an excellent job of highlighting how out of touch sports people can be in this regard.

Assetbacked

It's a good example to set, agreed. But the reality of the situation is that there are women who make it a career to tie down a famous rugby player and will throw themselves at them. This creates an entitlement attitude with the guys as their negative attitude to women is somewhat unpunished as girls don't care. Unfortunately, this is not a black-and-white yes/no consent issue because people know exactly what they are doing when proceeding with a rape and a simple yes/no consent class is not enough - attitudes and behaviours on both sides should be changed if people think it is harmful for guys to look down on girls and girls to throw themselves at guys.

hatrickpatrick

Last time I checked, the lads involved were found innocent of all charges laid against them, thus negating the need for any "action" to be taken beyond deciding who pays who's legal costs.

I find it hard to believe that these verdicts could have been overturned on appeal without my having heard about it in a major news headline

jimgoose

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Last time I checked, the lads involved were found innocent of all charges laid against them, thus negating the need for any "action" to be taken beyond deciding who pays who's legal costs.

I find it hard to believe that these verdicts could have been overturned on appeal without my having heard about it in a major news headline

The "lads" - a.k.a. "well-reared, educated grown men who should and do know better" - are demonstrated to have an terrible attitude to young women, and treated them abysmally.

PlaneSpeeking

jimgoose wrote: »

The "lads" - a.k.a. "well-reared, educated grown men who should and do know better" - are demonstrated to have an terrible attitude to young women, and treated them abysmally.

And at what point will the classes for women on "it's probably not a good idea to get absolutely locked and sleep with a couple of people who will take the piss the next day".

I'd guess, never in this world. Yet by God are they needed!

LirW

Assetbacked wrote: »

It's a good example to set, agreed. But the reality of the situation is that there are women who make it a career to tie down a famous rugby player and will throw themselves at them. This creates an entitlement attitude with the guys as their negative attitude to women is somewhat unpunished as girls don't care. Unfortunately, this is not a black-and-white yes/no consent issue because people know exactly what they are doing when proceeding with a rape and a simple yes/no consent class is not enough - attitudes and behaviours on both sides should be changed if people think it is harmful for guys to look down on girls and girls to throw themselves at guys.

Show me the hoards of women please that make a career out of that please :rolleyes:

What do you mean by "go throwing themselves at guys"? So if a woman gets raped or assaulted she shouldn't be surprised because she openly flirted with a guy or made out with him?

Anyway it's a brilliant idea because it sets a good example. I've a very Rugby-enthusiastic son who asked me about why Paddy Jackson isn't playing anymore. So these things do not go unnoticed by the young lads that look up to them.
A lot of athletes come from a line of athletes or managers, enjoy very good private education and some indeed are out of touch how the real world works and that a girl can do other things than just being a pretty WAG. There's a world difference in attitude between athletes that got scouted from a local club and one that had his name put down in Blackrock at birth and is destined to live up to their family's name.

Nothing bad came out of measures like that ever.

I'm just surprised that they don't talk about these things and situations in PR classes that they all probably have.

FunLover18

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Last time I checked, the lads involved were found innocent of all charges laid against them, thus negating the need for any "action" to be taken beyond deciding who pays who's legal costs.

I find it hard to believe that these verdicts could have been overturned on appeal without my having heard about it in a major news headline

They were found NOT GUILTY, meaning that the jury did not believe that the evidence presented by the prosecution was enough to rule out any possible doubt that they were guilty.

jimgoose

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

And at what point will the classes for women on "it's probably not a good idea to get absolutely locked and sleep with a couple of people who will take the piss the next day".

I'd guess, never in this world. Yet by God are they needed!

I would guess around the same time as the unisex "Don't be a five-star ocean-going lantherin' buck-eejit with the full complement of lifeboats" module.

ohnonotgmail

FunLover18 wrote: »

They were found NOT GUILTY, meaning that the jury did not believe that the evidence presented by the prosecution was enough to rule out any possible doubt that they were guilty.

That is not what a Not Guilty verdict means.

FunLover18

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

FunLover18 wrote: »

They were found NOT GUILTY, meaning that the jury did not believe that the evidence presented by the prosecution was enough to rule out any possible doubt that they were guilty.

That is not what a Not Guilty verdict means.

Perhaps you can word it better but It doesn't mean that they are innocent which is what the poster I quoted seems to believe.

PlaneSpeeking

jimgoose wrote: »

I would guess around the same time as the unisex "Don't be a five-star ocean-going lantherin' buck-eejit with the full complement of lifeboats" module.

That suits tbh!

Redneck Culchie

The feminists are out of control in this country. Out of principle I would refuse to take part such a class.

freshpopcorn

LirW wrote: »

Anyway it's a brilliant idea because it sets a good example. I've a very Rugby-enthusiastic son who asked me about why Paddy Jackson isn't playing anymore. So these things do not go unnoticed by the young lads that look up to them.
.

I thought Paddy Jackson was signed to a French club now.

PlaneSpeeking

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I thought Paddy Jackson was signed to a French club now.

Lower down than he should be playing for due to the angry mob.

PlaneSpeeking

FunLover18 wrote: »

Perhaps you can word it better but It doesn't mean that they are innocent which is what the poster I quoted seems to believe.

Seriously ? That ibelieveher crap has clearly got way out of hand.

LirW

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I thought Paddy Jackson was signed to a French club now.

He is, yes, but an 8y/o has no interest in some mediocre french club :pac:

FunLover18

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

FunLover18 wrote: »

Perhaps you can word it better but It doesn't mean that they are innocent which is what the poster I quoted seems to believe.

Seriously ? That ibelieveher crap has clearly got way out of hand.

This goes for all trials, the jury finds a defendent guilty when they are certain beyond reasonable doubt that they are guilty, otherwise the defendant is found NOT GUILTY and in the eyes of the law they are ASSUMED innocent. I'm not taking sides on any particular case, that is literally how the justice system works in all criminal cases.

freshpopcorn

LirW wrote: »

He is, yes, but an 8y/o has no interest in some mediocre french club :pac:

I was just making sure you know. Hopefully he won't be asked it in a quiz.

martingriff

wexie wrote: »

And they say romance isn't dead.....

I used that line in my college days a funny break the ice thing

LirW

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I was just making sure you know. Hopefully he won't be asked it in a quiz.

That little fella actually follows all ex-Ireland players, he knows everything including Paddy Jackson's current stats. My kid doesn't play Fortnite, it reads up Rugby News..... Nerd he is.

But yeah he certainly didn't understand what the trial was about. So I don't see anything wrong with having them taking these classes, even if it's just a box-ticking thing. We all have to do plenty of them during our lifetime, while they're boring, they usually serve their purpose und you take at least some bits out of it.

wexie

LirW wrote: »

My kid doesn't play Fortnite, it reads up Rugby News..... Nerd he is.

You think your kid is a nerd for not playing videogames?

freshpopcorn

I personally have no issue with a class like this. I honestly don't know will it make any difference tough.
I'd welcome a class tough on how to behave on a night out and look out for one another. This would of course include consent but lots of other things to.

Assetbacked

LirW wrote: »

Show me the hoards of women please that make a career out of that please :rolleyes:

What do you mean by "go throwing themselves at guys"? So if a woman gets raped or assaulted she shouldn't be surprised because she openly flirted with a guy or made out with him?

Anyway it's a brilliant idea because it sets a good example. I've a very Rugby-enthusiastic son who asked me about why Paddy Jackson isn't playing anymore. So these things do not go unnoticed by the young lads that look up to them.
A lot of athletes come from a line of athletes or managers, enjoy very good private education and some indeed are out of touch how the real world works and that a girl can do other things than just being a pretty WAG. There's a world difference in attitude between athletes that got scouted from a local club and one that had his name put down in Blackrock at birth and is destined to live up to their family's name.

Nothing bad came out of measures like that ever.

I'm just surprised that they don't talk about these things and situations in PR classes that they all probably have.

Well those sentences have demonstrated your irrational view on the topic (as you have linked girls being easy to being raped) and therefore are unlikely to accept the point.

Nonetheless;if you have ever been to a niteclub/bar in Dublin and some of the recognisable players are there there will never be a shortage of girls who climb over themselves to get to them. It is especially obvious in a niteclub as people are generally there to hook up. Remember a few years ago, the Conor Murray and Simon Zebo gangbang with the girl who ended up leaving the country in shame? The girl bragged about it to her friends after and unfortunately they made it all public but it was clear she wanted to bed them just because they were famous rugby players.

This doesn't mean the girls deserve to be raped, as you have indicated there may be a link to easy girls and rape. The point is that a yes/no consent class is pointless as a rapist will still rape. Since consent classes are being provided for guys to understand whether they should be proceeding with their actions and for girls to be empowered that it is okay to say "no", this opportunity should also be utilised to discuss attitudes and respect in general.

ANXIOUS

Wonder if the ladies team had to also undergo this "training".

LirW

wexie wrote: »

You think your kid is a nerd for not playing videogames?

A rugby nerd at least :pac: not much difference though in Watching YouTube videos about players and games or playing Fortnite me thinks, unless I have to rely on his knowledge in some quiz.

El_Duderino 09

FunLover18 wrote: »

As previous posters have said, there's no harm in it. In fact, even they are being made to do it, it sets a good example. I think it was mentioned in the thread specifically dedicated to the Jackson trial but the Seconds Captain podcast about consent with Sadlier (who runs similar programmes with schools) did an excellent job of highlighting how out of touch sports people can be in this regard.

Sadlier does an amazing job of showing how relevant the discussions he has are for sportspeople and for the transition year students he speaks with.

It’s always amusing to see people belittle the idea of discussing consent because it’s all so obvious, then brush over any differences in understanding and continue to say it’s obvious to everyone.

Fair play to the IRFU for protecting their players by making sure they’re informed.

PlaneSpeeking

ANXIOUS wrote: »

Wonder if the ladies team had to also undergo this "training".

Nope. I asked when my workplace was suggesting them.

There are religious exceptions for one particular faith (but no others) and when asked would women go the reply came "why ?????"

Wibbs

LirW wrote: »

Show me the hoards of women please that make a career out of that please :rolleyes:

Well he didn't say "hoards" for a start. Secondly no matter what the scenario, there's zero excuse for sexual assault.

However there most certainly are some women who while not making a career out of it, do make it a mission to "marry well"(though when they do, the career usually takes a break). The rugger bugger scene has always had that. It being generally a more well heeled middle class D4 sport at the playing end of things anyway. They hang out where the best pickings are and make their way into the clique and take it from there. The ones with brains avoid the "easy" label mind you. Having grown up around that scene to one degree or other I can think of four or five such women like this. And that was more at the schools, club, county level, at national and international level it's even more in play. Fame of any nature, local or international is chock full of hangers on and among that group are a lot of women, some are fans, some are groupies, some want to attach themselves to players more permanently. .

PlaneSpeeking

Wibbs wrote: »

Well he didn't say "hoards" for a start. Secondly no matter what the scenario, there's zero excuse for sexual assault.

However there most certainly are some women who while not making a career out of it, do make it a mission to "marry well"(though when they do, the career usually takes a break). The rugger bugger scene has always had that. It being generally a more well heeled middle class D4 sport at the playing end of things anyway. They hang out where the best pickings are and make their way into the clique and take it from there. The ones with brains avoid the "easy" label mind you. Having grown up around that scene to one degree or other I can think of four or five such women like this. And that was more at the schools, club, county level, at national and international level it's even more in play. Fame of any nature, local or international is chock full of hangers on and among that group is a lot of women, she are fans, some are groupies, some want to attach themselves to players more permanently. .

Max Clifford before his fall from grace, made an entire career out of kiss and tell stories.

Where there's a drunk celebrity there'll be a slapper ready to get her 15 minutes.

upandcumming

LirW wrote: »

I've a very Rugby-enthusiastic son who asked me about why Paddy Jackson isn't playing anymore. So these things do not go unnoticed by the young lads that look up to them.

I hope you told him that he was driven out of his home by clowns didn't like an easily-found verdict in a trial in a different country?

El_Duderino 09

upandcumming wrote: »

LirW wrote: »

I've a very Rugby-enthusiastic son who asked me about why Paddy Jackson isn't playing anymore. So these things do not go unnoticed by the young lads that look up to them.

I hope you told him that he was driven out of his home by clowns didn't like an easily-found verdict in a trial in a different country?

I hope they didn’t use it as a point scoring exercises and told the child an age appropriate version that would help them understand.

Triceratops Ballet

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Nope. I asked when my workplace was suggesting them.

There are religious exceptions for one particular faith (but no others) and when asked would women go the reply came "why ?????"

that to me would suggest that it is, at least in your workplace, literally just a box ticking exercise. Excluding women from it makes it seem like a) a punishment and b)kind of meaningless in a broader societal context. The objective of discussions around consent is supposed to lead to healthy discourse around the subject and breakdown of barriers in understanding from the perspective of all parties. Nobody is going to take it seriously if it is seen as a punitive measure.

LirW

Assetbacked wrote: »

Well those sentences have demonstrated your irrational view on the topic (as you have linked girls being easy to being raped) and therefore are unlikely to accept the point.

Nonetheless;if you have ever been to a niteclub/bar in Dublin and some of the recognisable players are there there will never be a shortage of girls who climb over themselves to get to them. It is especially obvious in a niteclub as people are generally there to hook up. Remember a few years ago, the Conor Murray and Simon Zebo gangbang with the girl who ended up leaving the country in shame? The girl bragged about it to her friends after and unfortunately they made it all public but it was clear she wanted to bed them just because they were famous rugby players.

This doesn't mean the girls deserve to be raped, as you have indicated there may be a link to easy girls and rape. The point is that a yes/no consent class is pointless as a rapist will still rape. Since consent classes are being provided for guys to understand whether they should be proceeding with their actions and for girls to be empowered that it is okay to say "no", this opportunity should also be utilised to discuss attitudes and respect in general.

Thanks for clarifying, like that it makes a lot more sense.
I think this (un) fortunately comes with fame. It's the same in every sports really and it's no secret that girls swoon over rich sport stars.

It is indeed a problematic playing field since there's a thin line and things can go wrong pretty quickly for either of them (looking at the Murray-Zebo fling).
Nonetheless, it's not wrong that they have to sit through these classes. I'm honestly surprised that this topic isn't already picked up in PR classes though. I know at the end of the day they'll do as they please but as mentioned before here, it's also some sort of security for the IRFU or the clubs that give themselves very family oriented and can't really afford having bad publicity.

One of the downsides of fame, eh?

hatrickpatrick

jimgoose wrote: »

The "lads" - a.k.a. "well-reared, educated grown men who should and do know better" - are demonstrated to have an terrible attitude to young women, and treated them abysmally.

So it's about thought-crime, not actual consent? There is no indication that anything non-consensual happened. Using disrespectful language in private is just that, a private matter. Both men and women do this constantly when in their private groups of friends, and no amount of Orwellian "re-education" is going to change that. Nor should it.

hatrickpatrick

FunLover18 wrote: »

They were found NOT GUILTY, meaning that the jury did not believe that the evidence presented by the prosecution was enough to rule out any possible doubt that they were guilty.

It's the same thing. Our society is founded on the principle of innocent until proven guilty. Therefore a not guilty verdict = an innocent individual.

PlaneSpeeking

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

So it's about thought-crime, not actual consent? There is no indication that anything non-consensual happened. Using disrespectful language in private is just that, a private matter. Both men and women do this constantly when in their private groups of friends, and no amount of Orwellian "re-education" is going to change that. Nor should it.

Quite frankly if we could be prosecuted for sexually demeaning thoughts and language I'd have been sharing a cell with the Mulhall sisters sometime around Season 2 of The Fall!

Having opinions such as those they shared is not a crime, nor should it be used to bootstrap a lame prosecution of a crime that simply did not happen.

Kintarō Hattori

FunLover18 wrote: »

As previous posters have said, there's no harm in it. In fact, even they are being made to do it, it sets a good example. I think it was mentioned in the thread specifically dedicated to the Jackson trial but the Seconds Captain podcast about consent with Sadlier (who runs similar programmes with schools) did an excellent job of highlighting how out of touch sports people can be in this regard.

I'd be very very annoyed if I was forced into doing something like this. Raised well, I'd consider myself a balanced individual who doesn't force himself upon anyone and knows what boundaries are and what no means. As said, it really seems like a box ticking exercise and I'd do my best to resist having to take part in it if I could.

freshpopcorn

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I personally have no issue with a class like this. I honestly don't know will it make any difference tough.
I'd welcome a class tough on how to behave on a night out and look out for one another. This would of course include consent but lots of other things to.

Exactly it would hardly stop Larry Murphy/ted bundy if they had these magical classes Louise o Neill /una mullaly espouses