Luas _ Whats next?

Bluefoam

So, they've finished the extension to the green line & ****ed up College Green... they now intend to extend that line again and call the extension 'Metro North', as if it was something new, although it is obvious we need a line to the Airport...

So, whats next? When one Luas line is finished construction, we should be immediately starting the next... A couple of cross connectors, or a circle line? Some lines on the Northside... I can't believe there is no plan for Crumlin... a massive place with a huge population, but not transport service to speak of...

CatInABox

Bluefoam wrote: »

So, they've finished the extension to the green line & ****ed up College Green... they now intend to extend that line again and call the extension 'Metro North', as if it was something new, although it is obvious we need a line to the Airport...

So, whats next? When one Luas line is finished construction, we should be immediately starting the next... A couple of cross connectors, or a circle line? Some lines on the Northside... I can't believe there is no plan for Crumlin... a massive place with a huge population, but not transport service to speak of...

Ah, you're way off base on some of this. College Green was screwed up because DCC didn't bring in the required traffic changes.

Metro North was cancelled, the replacement is MetroLink, a high frequency line that travels from swords through the city centre and out to Sandyford. People on the Luas will need to change at Sandyford by exiting the Luas and walking across the platform onto a bigger, faster train. It'll travel under the city at Charlemont, so the green line will run from Charlemont out to Broombridge. The Green Line is going to hit capacity in a couple of years, so an upgrade is needed.

There's not really any extra room in Dublin city centre for more Luas lines. If you think cross city screwed things up, imagine what another line or two will do. There's also not much room on the roads into the city either, but I think Lucan was being talked about.

Bluefoam

So thats it? A bit sad really. I still believe a line disecting South County from the Dart, through the Green & connecting to the Red via Crumlin would be achievable and very beneficial...

troyzer

CatInABox wrote: »

Ah, you're way off base on some of this. College Green was screwed up because DCC didn't bring in the required traffic changes.

Metro North was cancelled, the replacement is MetroLink, a high frequency line that travels from swords through the city centre and out to Sandyford. People on the Luas will need to change at Sandyford by exiting the Luas and walking across the platform onto a bigger, faster train. It'll travel under the city at Charlemont, so the green line will run from Charlemont out to Broombridge. The Green Line is going to hit capacity in a couple of years, so an upgrade is needed.

There's not really any extra room in Dublin city centre for more Luas lines. If you think cross city screwed things up, imagine what another line or two will do. There's also not much room on the roads into the city either, but I think Lucan was being talked about.

Is there a reason why all of the rail infrastructure in the last 100 years seems to exclusively serve a north/south axis?

Places like Lucan and Blanchardstown are still stuck with ****ty buses which take an hour to get into town while we're talking about the likes of Sandyford getting a new heavy rail line when they already have a Luas?

I'm not opposed to proper planning and I'm sure there is a reason why so much of our infrastructure is concentrated in small areas but Lucan/Blanchardstown are massive suburbs only served by Dublin bus.

And before someone brings up the commuter lines, don't. They're crap, infrequent and are at the very edges of both of the places I've just mentioned. If you live in Mulhuddart, you're 5km away from a train station. In my part of Lucan (next to the village) the Adamstown station is 4km away.

CatInABox

Bluefoam wrote: »

So thats it? A bit sad really. I still believe a line disecting South County from the Dart, through the Green & connecting to the Red via Crumlin would be achievable and very beneficial...

Well, there's Dart Expansion as well, BusConnects, the BusConnects Core Corridors project, eventually Dart Underground.

Half of Crumlin is 10/15 minutes walk from the red line, so it's got pretty good connections for now. Agree that it needs to be better, but not anytime soon.

lawred2

Bluefoam wrote: »

So thats it? A bit sad really. I still believe a line disecting South County from the Dart, through the Green & connecting to the Red via Crumlin would be achievable and very beneficial...

The West and North of the city and county would be more of a priority for light rail projects I'd have thought

Bluefoam

lawred2 wrote: »

The West and North of the city and county would be more of a priority for light rail projects I'd have thought

I would have thought buses were suited to West Dublin due to the more spread out nature... Northside absolutely needs better links.

CatInABox

troyzer wrote: »

Is there a reason why all of the rail infrastructure in the last 100 years seems to exclusively serve a north/south axis?

It was cheap. The Dart used the existing rail lines. The Green Line used the old tram alignment.

troyzer wrote: »

Places like Lucan and Blanchardstown are still stuck with ****ty buses which take an hour to get into town while we're talking about the likes of Sandyford getting a new heavy rail line when they already have a Luas?

The Green Line is getting an upgrade because it's
A) required to keep the line running well
Cheap, as most of it is already Metro standard

troyzer wrote: »

I'm not opposed to proper planning and I'm sure there is a reason why so much of our infrastructure is concentrated in small areas but Lucan/Blanchardstown are massive suburbs only served by Dublin bus.

And before someone brings up the commuter lines, don't. They're crap, infrequent and are at the very edges of both of the places I've just mentioned. If you live in Mulhuddart, you're 5km away from a train station. In my part of Lucan (next to the village) the Adamstown station is 4km away.

The Commuter lines are getting turned into Dart Lines, with a frequency/capacity upgrade. Once that happens, frequent buses will serve the lines.

ArthurG

lawred2 wrote: »

The West and North of the city and county would be more of a priority for light rail projects I'd have thought

IIRC Lucan was in line for a Luas until the crash, and unfortunately it hasn't been reinstated into the capital plans for the foreseeable future.

troyzer

CatInABox wrote: »

It was cheap. The Dart used the existing rail lines. The Green Line used the old tram alignment.



The Green Line is getting an upgrade because it's
A) required to keep the line running well
Cheap, as most of it is already Metro standard



The Commuter lines are getting turned into Dart Lines, with a frequency/capacity upgrade. Once that happens, frequent buses will serve the lines.

I hope you're right but I remain sceptical. In any use, a DART on the current lines wouldn't help someone like me.

Chances are that when you factor in the time to get a bus to the DART station and then get the DART in which is almost always going to be a further walk than where a bus can drop you, you probably would have been quicker getting the bus anyway.

CatInABox

troyzer wrote: »

I hope you're right but I remain sceptical. In any use, a DART on the current lines wouldn't help someone like me.

Chances are that when you factor in the time to get a bus to the DART station and then get the DART in which is almost always going to be a further walk than where a bus can drop you, you probably would have been quicker getting the bus anyway.

Of course, that's always going to be the case. For some people, the dart will make sense, for others it won't. Any increase in capacity is to be welcomed though, it'll take people off buses, cars off roads, etc.

troyzer

CatInABox wrote: »

Of course, that's always going to be the case. For some people, the dart will make sense, for others it won't. Any increase in capacity is to be welcomed though, it'll take people off buses, cars off roads, etc.

It does seem unfair though that some areas are public transport black spots, seemingly permanentely.

Bluefoam

It sounds like there isn't much of a plan in place... There should be a mass rollout of trams/trains. As soon as one line is finished, start another.

Bluefoam

troyzer wrote: »

It does seem unfair though that some areas are public transport black spots, seemingly permanentely.

Trains aren't meant to come to your house and pick you up...

lawred2

Bluefoam wrote: »

Trains aren't meant to come to your house and pick you up...

ah here....

CatInABox

Bluefoam wrote: »

It sounds like there isn't much of a plan in place... There should be a mass rollout of trams/trains. As soon as one line is finished, start another.

Again though, there's no room. Lucan is the only one that's possible.

Everything else is going to have to continue using the bus, which they're hoping to improve massively with the various BusConnects corridors.

magicbastarder

troyzer wrote: »

Places like Lucan and Blanchardstown are still stuck with ****ty buses which take an hour to get into town

i know it's not what you're getting at, but there is a railway station less than half a mile walk from blanchardstown main street. granted, it's not walkable (nor is coolmine or clonsilla) for a huge chunk of the population of greater blanchardstown, but i've wondered if the maynooth line is a factor in whether the area gets more rail infrastructure.

troyzer

Bluefoam wrote: »

Trains aren't meant to come to your house and pick you up...

I'm not suggesting they are. But it seems unfair that in certain areas of Dublin you're within a few minutes walk of either the DART and Luas and in others you'd have to get the bus to a crap commuter line.

There's a fundamental unfairness to that and it's not a coincidence that the wealthier areas seem to be hoovering up all of the infrastructure spending.

Bluefoam

There were stories that Blanchardstown centre had capacity for an underground station below where the cinema is located & was developed with this in mind...

Keyzer

I was in Munich last week and, although its an extremely wealthy part of Germany, it's transport system makes Dublin look like something out of the 1900's.

L1011

Bluefoam wrote: »

There were stories that Blanchardstown centre had capacity for an underground station below where the cinema is located & was developed with this in mind...

Like 99% of rumours about underground stuff, it isn't true.

There was an overground alignment from the Maynooth line to the centre site preserved since the 70s until the mid 90s. The site had been been planned for a town centre for that long!

Carawaystick

CatInABox wrote: »

Ah, you're way off base on some of this. College Green was screwed up because DCC didn't bring in the required traffic changes.

In an ideal world, the planning board would not have given permission for a tramline through College green until the traffic plan for the city was developed first,
They also wouldn't allow a dangerous to cyclist tramline be installed, but they were too woried about not having 2 tram stops on Dawson st to worry about the actual issues

The same organisation seem to think only car traffic counts, and that through traffic should be encouraged through the city rather than around the city
http://irishcycle.com/2018/10/23/college-green-plaza-planners-were-wrong-and-their-thinking-would-stop-liveable-cities/

ligerdub

Dublin transport is doomed. It's one large traffic jam and it's unlikely to change anytime soon.

RayCun

troyzer wrote: »

I'm not suggesting they are. But it seems unfair that in certain areas of Dublin you're within a few minutes walk of either the DART and Luas and in others you'd have to get the bus to a crap commuter line.

There's a fundamental unfairness to that and it's not a coincidence that the wealthier areas seem to be hoovering up all of the infrastructure spending.

The luas red line services wealthier areas?

bk

Well beyond the fantastic and badly needed Metrolink and upgrade of parts of the Green Line to Metro standard, after that we are also likely to see the Green line extending into Finglas to the North, extended to Bray to the South and the Red line extended to the East to Poolbeg.

I also wouldn't be surprised if we see the Lucan Luas back on the table and perhaps a plan for the Green line to go somewhere new from Charlemont once the Metrolink is in place.

troyzer

RayCun wrote: »

The luas red line services wealthier areas?

A rare exception and is probably the worst of all of the rail options Dublin has. It takes an insanely long time to get from Saggart or City West into town.

bk

troyzer wrote: »

A rare exception and is probably the worst of all of the rail options Dublin has. It takes an insanely long time to get from Saggart or City West into town.

Ignoring the Green Luas line that now goes well into North Dublin, the DART line that goes through North Dublin including some more interesting areas and the two train lines that go through West Dublin.

And the plan to pour 3 billion into a Metro line through north Dublin to Swords and to spend 2 billion DARTifying thus two Western lines and Northern line.

XPS_Zero

Irish people annoy the hell out of me sometimes.


They complain they don't wanna live in apts, cos they want a garden..but there being no room for any more houses with gardens in Dublin, we got way more spread out housing estates south and west of Dublin than we got new apt blocks IN Dublin (esp with our stupid height limits)...then the same people are shocked that this lower splurged out population density cannot be served effectively by trains and has to be sorted with busses.


You can't have both the enormous splurge of houses just to get what, lets face it with modern developments, is a pretty mediocre garden most people seem to keep in sj**te condition anyway, AND a DART / LUAS / Metro like link. You can't have both. Pick one.


There was a Metro West plan and even a Lucan Luas plan is still viable desite Lucans spread out nature but Enda, Noonan and Leo sorted that out quick enough because they didn't understand the difference between an investment and an expense, and decided that they'd decide the needs of people in 2025 and 2030 based on the short term political spending needs of 2011.


We should revisit both those plans, but they need to be tied to a proper planning system where there is decent population density.

bennyineire

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Dublin people annoy the hell out of me sometimes.


They complain they don't wanna live in apts, cos they want a garden..but there being no room for any more houses with gardens in Dublin, we got way more spread out housing estates south and west of Dublin than we got new apt blocks IN Dublin (esp with our stupid height limits)...then the same people are shocked that this lower splurged out population density cannot be served effectively by trains and has to be sorted with busses.


You can't have both the enormous splurge of houses just to get what, lets face it with modern developments, is a pretty mediocre garden most people seem to keep in sj**te condition anyway, AND a DART / LUAS / Metro like link. You can't have both. Pick one.


There was a Metro West plan and even a Lucan Luas plan is still viable desite Lucans spread out nature but Enda, Noonan and Leo sorted that out quick enough because they didn't understand the difference between an investment and an expense, and decided that they'd decide the needs of people in 2025 and 2030 based on the short term political spending needs of 2011.


We should revisit both those plans, but they need to be tied to a proper planning system where there is decent population density.

Fixed that for ya

n!ghtmancometh

Can add Clondalkin into that too. No bus serves either Clondalkin/Fonthill Station or Red Cow Luas directly either.

Bus has no priority in Clondalkin Village and when it finally gets onto the N7, it has a bus lane that takes an age to battle through traffic exiting the M50 to get into, and is then blocked by idiots in the wrong lane by the time it reaches the Long Mile Road junction. Whoever designed that Red Cow 'upgrade' should be pelted with balls of their own sh!te. Zero thought given to public transport, and not as if it was designed 30 years ago either.

Del2005

troyzer wrote: »

A rare exception and is probably the worst of all of the rail options Dublin has. It takes an insanely long time to get from Saggart or City West into town.

It's much quicker than the buses though.

Last Stop

After Metrolink is built, I would love to see luas continue from harcourt down Adelaide Rd. onto Leeson st. to UCD, possibly elevated past Donnybrook. It's only a couple of km but would make a massive difference!

Hotblack Desiato

That "Clondalkin" station is a joke, impossible to get to from anywhere actually in Clondalkin except by car, surrounded by absolutely no housing at all. Even the unopened Kishoge station is slightly better in that regard.

All future investment in rail in Dublin needs to be underground. Each "upgrade" of the Luas has just made the existing slow and crowded services even slower and more crowded.

Stephen15

Last Stop wrote: »

After Metrolink is built, I would love to see luas continue from harcourt down Adelaide Rd. onto Leeson st. to UCD, possibly elevated past Donnybrook. It's only a couple of km but would make a massive difference!

To be honest UCD would probably be still better served by bus if that were to happen. Between the 39a, 46a and 145 UCD is very well served by bus which would likely be quicker than any Luas detouring around Harcourt Street resources would be better placed elsewhere. I don't agree with building rail infrastructure for the sake of it some people are of the opinion that rail based transport is automatically better than bus transport but I would somewhat disagree. I don't care if I'm served by bus, train, tram or underground/metro as long as I'm adquently served by a service that is fast, frequent, affordable and reliable.

I wouldn't support anymore Luas Green Line expansion until after Metrolink is built as it is at capacity at the moment. Finglas and Bray should be built but not until the Metrolink is built and the line from Sandyford to Charlemont is upgraded.

troyzer

bk wrote: »

Ignoring the Green Luas line that now goes well into North Dublin, the DART line that goes through North Dublin including some more interesting areas and the two train lines that go through West Dublin.

And the plan to pour 3 billion into a Metro line through north Dublin to Swords and to spend 2 billion DARTifying thus two Western lines and Northern line.

The Green line is pretty good, full credit to that. Although it should be said that the areas the green line goes through have been undergoing gentrification for years now, the same goes for Tallaght. It's a bit of a chicken and egg scenario, nobody is disputing that the house price acceleration granted by the Luas construction is a factor but it was already happening beforehand.

If and when Metro and the DARTificiation of the other lines happen, then I'll stand corrected. I seriously doubt they will.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Irish people annoy the hell out of me sometimes.


They complain they don't wanna live in apts, cos they want a garden..but there being no room for any more houses with gardens in Dublin, we got way more spread out housing estates south and west of Dublin than we got new apt blocks IN Dublin (esp with our stupid height limits)...then the same people are shocked that this lower splurged out population density cannot be served effectively by trains and has to be sorted with busses.


You can't have both the enormous splurge of houses just to get what, lets face it with modern developments, is a pretty mediocre garden most people seem to keep in sj**te condition anyway, AND a DART / LUAS / Metro like link. You can't have both. Pick one.


There was a Metro West plan and even a Lucan Luas plan is still viable desite Lucans spread out nature but Enda, Noonan and Leo sorted that out quick enough because they didn't understand the difference between an investment and an expense, and decided that they'd decide the needs of people in 2025 and 2030 based on the short term political spending needs of 2011.


We should revisit both those plans, but they need to be tied to a proper planning system where there is decent population density.

I want to live in an apartment and be within a ten minute walk of some form of mass transit, it can't be done in Dublin. I agree with you though that people who sound similar to me complaining about public transport but then also want a 3 bed semi-d are delusional.

Del2005 wrote: »

It's much quicker than the buses though.

Wonderful, the Luas is slightly less awful. But far more expensive to build.

Great job Ireland.

Keyzer

The real question here is, in its totality, is the public transport system in Dublin up to standard.

It's not. No where near up to standard.

25 years ago I used to get the Maynooth train into the city. The train stopped every morning for 5-10 mins due to congestion at Connolly.

This still happens today. Simply not good enough.

bk

Stephen15 wrote: »

To be honest UCD would probably be still better served by bus if that were to happen. Between the 39a, 46a and 145 UCD is very well served by bus which would likely be quicker than any Luas detouring around Harcourt Street resources would be better placed elsewhere. I don't agree with building rail infrastructure for the sake of it some people are of the opinion that rail based transport is automatically better than bus transport but I would somewhat disagree.

Yes, bus can be very good, but where rail wins, in particular Luas is consistency and reliability. There are definitely routes along the red line where the bus will handily beat the Luas most of the time. The problem is sometimes the bus gets stuck in traffic and ends up taking twice as long. Many people take Luas because it ends up being more consistent. They grab the Luas at 8:30 or whatever and know that the vast majority of time they will be in work for 9.

Stephen15 wrote: »

I don't care if I'm served by bus, train, tram or underground/metro as long as I'm adquently served by a service that is fast, frequent, affordable and reliable.

Yes and I'm lucky to actually have a brilliant bus service. My local bus stop has roughly half a dozen major routes passing it. That means there is a bus by roughly every 1 or 2 minutes, so never a long wait. And then offpeak it takes me just 10 minutes (I actually timed it recently) to get into O'Connell St. and about 20 minutes peak. Really quiet brilliant.

The above experience is why I think BusConnects would be great for the rest of the city. I've already experienced what a lot of BC promises and I'd love to see the rest of Dublin get it.

A big reason why my journey is so quick, is the BC like change to the Cat & Cage where they widened the road to make a continuous bus lane, which easily dropped the journey time in half! That was just a 100 meters of road improvement and it had a fantastic effect. Now imagine that for the rest of the city, I think it could be truly revolutionary for buses here.

Then add greater frequency, bus lane enforcement *, better ticketing and lower dwell time and I think buses could come quiet close to matching Luas for the same consistency and reliability I mentioned above.

* Bus lane enforcement is an important one, we badly need more hard infrastructure to stop cars entering bus lanes and we need automated cameras handing out fines and penalty points.

Stephen15 wrote: »

I wouldn't support anymore Luas Green Line expansion until after Metrolink is built as it is at capacity at the moment. Finglas and Bray should be built but not until the Metrolink is built and the line from Sandyford to Charlemont is upgraded.

Of course I don't think anyone is suggesting that they happen before Metrolink completes. Though you could obviously start planning once Metrolink is under way. I don't think TII would have the resources anyway with all hands on deck for Metrolink.

Stephen15

bk wrote: »

Yes, bus can be very good, but where rail wins, in particular Luas is consistency and reliability. There are definitely routes along the red line where the bus will handily beat the Luas most of the time. The problem is sometimes the bus gets stuck in traffic and ends up taking twice as long. Many people take Luas because it ends up being more consistent. They grab the Luas at 8:30 or whatever and know that the vast majority of time they will be in work for 9.

I'm not disputing that I agree that the bus service in most parts of Dublin is fairly shoddy but in some areas there is a good service with QBCs for example the N11 QBC. What I'm saying is UCD is very well served by bus and I reckon could a Luas line to there taking longer than current bus routes serving from the city centre if built.

What I am is in some areas the bus service can be just as good as the Luas such where you live and on certain QBC for example the N11 QBC in my opinion is just as fast, frequent and reliable as the Dart or Luas and it serves UCD.

cherryghost

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

That "Clondalkin" station is a joke, impossible to get to from anywhere actually in Clondalkin except by car, surrounded by absolutely no housing at all. Even the unopened Kishoge station is slightly better in that regard.

All future investment in rail in Dublin needs to be underground. Each "upgrade" of the Luas has just made the existing slow and crowded services even slower and more crowded.

Not to mention 0 feeder buses to the Luas. It's ludicrous.

zom

troyzer wrote: »

Wonderful, the Luas is slightly less awful. But far more expensive to build.

Is building tram track that much more expensive than building a road ?

troyzer

zom wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

Wonderful, the Luas is slightly less awful. But far more expensive to build.

Is building tram track that much more expensive than building a road ?

Apples and oranges. The Luas is built largely on existing roads which can theoretically take a bus with some extra paint for a bus land.

Taking a normal road and adding a bus is likely several orders of magnitude cheaper than adding tracks and all the prep work and disruption that goes into it.

end of the road

troyzer wrote: »

Apples and oranges. The Luas is built largely on existing roads which can theoretically take a bus with some extra paint for a bus land.

Taking a normal road and adding a bus is likely several orders of magnitude cheaper than adding tracks and all the prep work and disruption that goes into it.

sure, but it can't offer a blip of the capacity of luas without mountains of vehicles and drivers. so luas may be a bit more expensive but there is plenty of bang for that buck.

Hotblack Desiato

troyzer wrote: »

The Luas is built largely on existing roads

nope and there'd be no point having it if it was.

Alkers

Will the green line remain operational during the upgrade to metro?

zom

Simona1986 wrote: »

Will the green line remain operational during the upgrade to metro?

Not for two years and I can't even imagine commuting chaos and disaster caused by. But surely people who get dosh for this stupid idea don't use Luas.

BTW - more Metrolink discussions on Environment and Infrastructure forum: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=887

CatInABox

zom wrote: »

Not for two years and I can't even imagine commuting chaos and disaster caused by. But surely people who get dosh for this stupid idea don't use Luas.

BTW - more Metrolink discussions on Environment and Infrastructure forum: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=887

Simona1986 has actually already asked that question there, and gotten some fairly in-depth answers. Basic gist is that the two year figure is a total red herring, and it won't be closed for anywhere near that length of time.

zom

CatInABox wrote: »

Simona1986 has actually already asked that question there, and gotten some fairly in-depth answers. Basic gist is that the two year figure is a total red herring, and it won't be closed for anywhere near that length of time.

I haven't got through discussions on Environment and Infrastructure, but just to answer you here, you can't be much wrong saying "two years", knowing speed and organization of big infrastructure projects in Ireland.

CatInABox

zom wrote: »

I haven't got through discussions on Environment and Infrastructure, but just to answer you here, you can't be much wrong saying "two years", knowing speed and organization of big infrastructure projects in Ireland.

The plans are already out there for how they're going to do most of the work on the Metrolink upgrade, including building new temporary Luas tracks beside the current Luas tracks, so that work can commence without any disruption.

The tie in works for the Red and Green line were scheduled to take four months, and they were completed in less than 6 weeks.

There's a prevailing belief in Ireland that we're bad at infrastructure projects, but we're not. Companies and people in Ireland work on major infrastructure projects all over the world, our expertise is well regarded. The difficulty that we have is getting project out of the planning phase.

Bray Head

CatInABox wrote: »

There's a prevailing belief in Ireland that we're bad at infrastructure projects, but we're not. Companies and people in Ireland work on major infrastructure projects all over the world, our expertise is well regarded. The difficulty that we have is getting project out of the planning phase.

Project delivery in Ireland in the last 15 years has been in general on time and within budget.

Compare to Germany at the moment where Berlin's new airport is years and billions over budget and may never be opened. Stuttgart's new hauptbahnhof project is estimated at 75% over budget, and basic motorway widening projects often involve contra-flow for three years at a time.

As CatInABox says, the real delays in Ireland are the planning approval system, as well as the reluctance of D/PER to commit to very large projects given what happened the last time with cancellation of MN and DU due to the long recession.