Cities around the world that are reducing car access

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124003793#Comment_124003793

Yes but a ZTL is overly restrictive.

It bans cars from entering the city centre at all!

Deprioritising cars in favour of PT is fine, but cars still need to access car parks and be able to visit and spend in the city centre.

Car occupants are the highest spenders per capita amongst all modes of transport users.

MJohnston

Meh! I think we could (and should) very easily transform everything inside the Inner Orbital Route into a ZTL. A lot of areas in this zone are already off-limits directly or indirectly to non-residents anyway.

Throw a few huge park and ride multi-storey car parks in at strategic transport nodes outside the zone - like Heuston, The Point (already has a big multi-storey) and accommodate access to some of the existing peripheral ones like Werburgh Street

Ben D Bus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124003916#Comment_124003916

I thought that high spending thing for car occupants was somewhat debunked in that they spend more per visit but make fewer visits, and as such are not in fact the biggest overall spenders. Open to correction on that. Either way, I believe bus users are biggest overall spenders.

magicbastarder

how is the spend tracked per mode of transport? more importantly, who does the research?

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124004002#Comment_124004002

Car users spend the most individually and visit the city centre in their thousands every day, so banning them from the city completely would have a big impact on spend levels.

Bus passengers are higher in number but spend less individually.

Flinty997

It's broken down here

https://irishcycle.com/2024/06/29/car-users-account-for-only-24-of-dublin-city-centre-spending-but-lobby-group-uses-misleading-claim-to-halt-transport-plan/

Flinty997

The traditional model of people driving into down to buy books paint or furniture is gone the way of the dodo. It's not coming back. It shouldn't be used as a blocker.

L1011

That lobby group have since admitted they were wrong, too; and shouldn't have opposed it. Statement given to some trade magazine, someone will likely have the photo of it.

magicbastarder

this is the NTA shopper survey; i've just had the barest of scans of it so far, but one thing that jumped out at me was their choice of polling locations - grafton street and henry street. they picked the two main 'shopping' streets in the city, and i guess that's sensible; but they are streets people who specifically go into town to shop would likely pick.

in short, there are a hell of a lot of other streets people go into town to, but for other reasons (e.g. drinking or dining) or whose trip had a different 'source' intention - e.g. workers who frequent the streets near their workplace and might only occasionally need to pop into either of the two main streets.

unfortunately, the figures for how often people enter the city centre are broken down by frequency of visits, but unfortunately not by mode of transport. obviously workers would be much more likely to take PT, and much more likely to spend below the average per trip, but how much would that be compensated for with the frequency of the trips?

also, wouldn't the range of shops on either street be skewed too? towards fashion and shoes, maybe jewellery too? compared to other streets anyway.

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Dublin-City-Shopper-Survey-2022.pdf

magicbastarder

also, i wonder where they stood on each street; e.g. at either end? that could have an impact; with henry street opening onto a major thoroughfare for PT (luas and bus), that could skew results every bit as much as if they had stood outside brown thomas where the spend would be high, and where the shop has a car park right at the back.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124004183#Comment_124004183

I dont think you can read too much into the survey but it does highlight the higher spend of car drivers.

I think there is a judicial review against the traffic changes around the quays.

More pedestrianisation and priority to public transport would be great to see but cars should still be able to access the city centre at the same time and access car parks.

Flinty997

They don't spend more collectively. Which is the only relevance.

Imo. Vested interests commissioned it. When the results didn't support their interests it was selectively quoted from out of context.

That the media let this pass unchallenged raises it's own questions about the media.

Whatever about all that. Congestion, a problem of too many cars is never going to be solved by "more cars".

Flinty997

"....More pedestrianisation and priority to public transport would be great to see.. "

That's past tense. It's already in place.

magicbastarder

I dont think you can read too much into the survey but it does highlight the higher spend of car drivers.

a question that survey can't answer - how many people were put off travelling into the city because their only option is a bus on roads choked by private traffic?

e.g. it's theoretically possible (note theoretically; i'm not stating this is actually the case) that the traffic created for every one person driving in could be worsening PT to the point that two or more bus users don't make the shopping trip.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124004238#Comment_124004238

We should have more pedestrian areas in the city centre. There have been improvements but some way to go yet.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124004255#Comment_124004255

This is true and the same applies to a total ban on cars.

Banning 10,000 drivers from the city centre does not mean those 10,000 people come in by bus instead.

Many wont come to the city at all and may well spend online instead or drive to Liffey Valley etc.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124004233#Comment_124004233

It isnt the only relevance.

If car drivers are the highest spending group and you eliminate them from the city centre, total spend goes down.

There are vested interests on both sides of the argument.

Pro cycling journalists are hardly going to champion car driver behaviour, no matter what the facts of the matter are.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124004308#Comment_124004308

It's the car park owners survey its their facts.

The facts aren't in dispute. Just the ability to read them.

Car drivers aren't the highest spending group. They only account for 24% of spending in that survey. Their numbers have fallen further since the survey.

Flinty997

PT use only rising...

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/record-numbers-used-public-transport-last-year-with-journeys-up-almost-11-1790207.html

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124004357#Comment_124004357

Car park owners and also retail experts who understand where the sales come from in great detail.

Nobody said that drivers were the largest spending group, but they are the largest spenders individually.

The smaller the market share they have the lower the overall spend.

All modes of city centre visitors should be welcomed and PT users should be prioritised. We can probably agree on the 2nd point at least.

Flinty997

So they are minority spending group and falling in numbers. Their priority of road space should reflect that. A minority.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124004392#Comment_124004392

Deprioritised into the city centre, yes. But not banned from visiting.

Nationally, car usage is at record levels and represents 71% of all journeys.

M50 traffic is up 11% since the pandemic so cars arent going away any time soon.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124004357#Comment_124004357

the one i linked is an NTA one. are you saying it was commissioned by the car park owners?

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/publications/nta-shopper-surveys-summer-2022/

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124004416#Comment_124004416

Not that one no.

But consider that survey is going to be skewed like you said simply by the location of the survey. Let's exaggerate and do the survey in the Rolex store Vs Dunnes.

Not that it's wrong. You just need to have the context.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124004413#Comment_124004413

No one is seriously considering banning them. The council have bent over backwards to maintain access to the city centre car parks. But if gets more complicated to get to them then tough.

Car park owners and also retail experts who understand where the sales come from in great detail.

If by retail experts you mean business owners then they are notoriously terrible at knowing where their sales come from and consistently wildly overestimate the spend of drivers. And car park owners dont actually care

Flinty997

Experts who can't read or misrepresent their own data are not experts.

Juza1973

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123998196#Comment_123998196

Removing all the jobs that can be done with wfh. Leave it to tourism and institutional affairs only.