Air BnB [and other platforms] to be effectively outlawed in high demand areas

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Thousands upon thousands of people call Dublin City Centre their home, and they are entitled to have their residential houses / apartments be surrounded by same as per applicable planning law - not illegally turned into hotels.

Yeah, I’ve visited friends’ apartment in very busy parts of the city and they were generally set up so that the bedrooms were as far from the street noise as possible. So yeah, being like “LOL, why would anyone live in Temple Bar anyway?” is a daft comment. And even when in the living room or whatever, the street noise was often not that bad as it drifted upwards whereas disruption going right next door would be quite loud.

LuckyLloyd

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Yeah, I’ve visited friends’ apartment in very busy parts of the city and they were generally set up so that the bedrooms were as far from the street noise as possible. So yeah, being like “LOL, why would anyone live in Temple Bar anyway?” is a daft comment. And even when in the living room or whatever, the street noise was often not that bad as it drifted upwards whereas disruption going right next door would be quite loud.

Honestly, people thinking that nobody lives in the city centre are prisoners of their own lack of experience and imagination of the city.

But it changes nothing: this is about planning regulations and acceptable use.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Yes and when asked, you linked back to a comment you made yourself, for reasons that remain a mystery.

And, to make it more clear: It’s not going to be just one disruptive Airbnb guest. There will be more than one. It won’t be all guests but it won’t be just one.

I was going to say I feel silly having to type that out but actually I don’t. If you want to continue along these lines, knock yourself out.

But where is the evidence that airbnb disruption is in anyway meaningful? Just look at the first page of this forum now or at anytime. You will always find a number of threads complaining about neighbours for a vast array of reasons, mostly around noise, parking, dogs, people operating businesses etc. You will also see loads of threads by landlords with a vast array of complaints about tenants but none complaining about airbnb guests despite quite a few airbnb hosts posting on the forum.

Off the top of my head I can't remember one thread where people are complaining about airbnb, now there may have been some but they are certainly very rare. Now you will say that this is no indication of there not being an issue but it certainly suggests that with the number of houses on airbnb that if it was such a big issue that there would be more evidence.

The only place I see disruption from airbnb guests mentioned is from a few anti-airbnb posters on here, even in the media its never highlighted as an issue where the false assumption that airbnb is the cause for homelessness etc is the usual rubbish being peddled.

Just taking one absolutely non-issue which is put forward as a complaint: people brining suitcases on the halls regularly. Does that mean say cabin crew shouldn't be allowed rent a place or people who travel a lot for work (I've a friend who takes flights 3 out of ever 4 weeks). What about kids with bikes, dragging them on the halls etc. Total rubbish is the only way to describe some of the "issues" with airbnb.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Carlos Slow Traitor wrote: »

But where is the evidence that airbnb disruption is in anyway meaningful? Just look at the first page of this forum now or at anytime. You will always find a number of threads complaining about neighbours for a vast array of reasons, mostly around noise, parking, dogs, people operating businesses etc. You will also see loads of threads by landlords with a vast array of complaints about tenants but none complaining about airbnb guests despite quite a few airbnb hosts posting on the forum.

Off the top of my head I can't remember one thread where people are complaining about airbnb, now there may have been some but they are certainly very rare. Now you will say that this is no indication of there not being an issue but it certainly suggests that with the number of houses on airbnb that if it was such a big issue that there would be more evidence.

The only place I see disruption from airbnb guests mentioned is from a few anti-airbnb posters on here, even in the media its never highlighted as an issue where the false assumption that airbnb is the cause for homelessness etc is the usual rubbish being peddled.

Just taking one absolutely non-issue which is put forward as a complaint: people brining suitcases on the halls regularly. Does that mean say cabin crew shouldn't be allowed rent a place or people who travel a lot for work (I've a friend who takes flights 3 out of ever 4 weeks). What about kids with bikes, dragging them on the halls etc. Total rubbish is the only way to describe some of the "issues" with airbnb.

Where do you imagine cabin crew have stayed all these years? Perhaps a purpose-built or retrofitted establishment suitable for the accommodation of many short-term guests, perchance? “Won’t somebody please think of the cabin crew!” is probably not the best angle to take. And who are you to say that suitcases are a non-issue?

I’ve read articles about Airbnb disruption in Ireland. I can’t find them right now but I know that one apartment building that banned them was in the Grand Canal Dock area.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Where do you imagine cabin crew have stayed all these years? Perhaps a purpose-built or retrofitted establishment suitable for the accommodation of many short-term guests, perchance? “Won’t somebody please think of the cabin crew!” is probably not the best angle to take. And who are you to say that suitcases are a non-issue?

I meant cabin crew will have a home, many will live in apartments and will be "dragging luggage" on the halls regularly so should they not be allowed to live in apartments either since they are committing one of the "crimes" of airbnb guests.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Carlos Slow Traitor wrote: »

I meant cabin crew will have a home, many will live in apartments and will be "dragging luggage" on the halls regularly so should they not be allowed to live in apartments either since they are committing one of the "crimes" of airbnb guests.

If it’s where they live, they will be acting like workers/residents and not tourists and will be aware of their neighbours and the rules of the building. You’re completely missing the point and focusing far too much on one aspect. Everyone has a suitcase. People are talking about how tourists differ in behaviour.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

If it’s where they live, they will be acting like workers/residents and not tourists and will be aware of their neighbours and the rules of the building. You’re completely missing the point and focusing far too much on one aspect. Everyone has a suitcase. People are talking about how tourists differ in behaviour.

And where is the evidence that tourists won't respect neighbours?

You will see in hotels for example that the vast majority of guests respect other guests and its only fair to assume the same when staying in an airbnb, if anything I would expect people to me more conscious of it.

awec

Airline cabin crew.

That's the depths we've reached now.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Carlos Slow Traitor wrote: »

And where is the evidence that tourists won't respect neighbours?

You will see in hotels for example that the vast majority of guests respect other guests and its only fair to assume the same when staying in an airbnb, if anything I would expect people to me more conscious of it.

Sadly, not my experience. Many times, I’ve been very glad that the hotels I’ve stayed in allow for the fact that people will be noisy and have been built to accommodate that and dampen hallway noise. And when the room next door has got noisy, you can ring down to reception, something I’ve also done. What does the apartment-dweller do in this case? Security isn’t always available. And the buildings are not necessarily designed to deal with hallway noise.

mrslancaster

I'm confused about some of the posts here saying that residential properties should not be used for paying guests. What about B&B's? Any one of those I ever stayed in was a house but there doesn't seem to be any problem there. Is the issue with airbnb's in apartments?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

mrslancaster wrote: »

I'm confused about some of the posts here saying that residential properties should not be used for paying guests. What about B&B's? Any one of those I ever stayed in was a house but there doesn't seem to be any problem there. Is the issue with airbnb's in apartments?

For me, traditional B and Bs are more like the type of Airbnb rental that I have no issue with. The owner is usually in situ so is there to both assist the guest and put manners on them if they are disruptive. Airbnbs with owners in situ are much the same. And people very occasionally renting out a room in their house, say when they go on holiday themselves, I also have no problem with. That would be such a tiny portion of the year.

mrslancaster

thanks for that, that's clear.
can I ask about holiday homes? We've rented them too & there was no owner living there. Do houses used as holiday homes get special planning permission to be used for paying guests before they're built or do th owners need to apply later on for a change of use

davindub

Dav010 wrote: »

I can understand completely how that would be annoying, but my experience is the opposite, In two years I have never had a complaint, and I know the neighbours well, meeting them regularly. Our experiences color our opinions, would you say the problems you describe are the norm for Airbnb?

Never recieved an complaint vs never caused a disruption is quite different I'm sure you would recognise. I would say there is no norm for an airbnb, there are too many variables including the area/luck that would attract the noisier guests.

Problem is, neighbours can't predict it either , you may be an amazing and considerate host and neighbour, carefully vetting guests but guarenteed there are enough that don't to cause issues and you get caught up in the legislative response.

A common post is that LL's resort to airbnb because of the risk of overholding, airbnb has risks also which LL's accept at the expense of their neighbours. But also I wonder if the same LLs consider the risk of squatting in their apartment? It can and does happen in Dublin...

Jamsiek

Carlos Slow Traitor wrote: »

It’s exceptionally difficult to catch people and prove anything.

Not necessarily true. AirBNB rentals are advertised so it should be very easy to spot them

Jamsiek

Dav010 wrote: »

I can understand completely how that would be annoying, but my experience is the opposite, In two years I have never had a complaint, and I know the neighbours well, meeting them regularly. Our experiences color our opinions, would you say the problems you describe are the norm for Airbnb?

In my building AirBNB is banned due to complaints from the residents.
This was largely due to parties during the week, people coming and going, treating the building like a hotel, etc.
I'm not saying long term tenants don't do this but no such issues remain since the ban was put in place.

Jamsiek

Jamsiek wrote: »

Not necessarily true. AirBNB rentals are advertised so it should be very easy to spot them

It has been confirmed there is a very high evidence threashold required. Catching people on the property at a minimum, proving the owner doesn’t live there, proving it’s happening more than the allowed number of days etc.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Jamsiek wrote: »

In my building AirBNB is banned due to complaints from the residents.
This was largely due to parties during the week, people coming and going, treating the building like a hotel, etc.
I'm not saying long term tenants don't do this but no such issues remain since the ban was put in place.

Actually, this makes me think that issues related to Airbnb might not get as far as hitting the media. Your building banned it but was it reported upon?

Jamsiek

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Actually, this makes me think that issues related to Airbnb might not get as far as hitting the media. Your building banned it but was it reported upon?

No I don't think it was reported to the media.
Posters were put up on notice boards saying that it was banned.
I should ask the building manager, I'm curious now.

Jamsiek

Jamsiek wrote: »

No I don't think it was reported to the media.
Posters were put up on notice boards saying that it was banned.
I should ask the building manager, I'm curious now.

How is it being enforced? Surprised hosts aren’t just ignoring it.

Jamsiek

Carlos Slow Traitor wrote: »

How is it being enforced? Surprised hosts aren’t just ignoring it.

Not sure how they do it but the building manager knows who is living in each unit and has a list of residents.
There are big fines for breaking strata rules so I'd say that might be a deterrent.
Not sure what methods they are using though.
I remember there was also a crackdown on people smoking weed on the balconies because of the smell so people were more careful

Jay Dee

Jamsiek wrote: »

Not sure how they do it but the building manager knows who is living in each unit and has a list of residents.
There are big fines for breaking strata rules so I'd say that might be a deterrent.
Not sure what methods they are using though.
I remember there was also a crackdown on people smoking weed on the balconies because of the smell so people were more careful

What's the place going to.....

Dav010

Jamsiek wrote: »

Not sure how they do it but the building manager knows who is living in each unit and has a list of residents.
There are big fines for breaking strata rules so I'd say that might be a deterrent.
Not sure what methods they are using though.
I remember there was also a crackdown on people smoking weed on the balconies because of the smell so people were more careful

How can fines be enforced? Having served as a MC director for a few years, legal advice on penalising late payment of subs was that MC had no legal basis for fining/charging owners for anything. Though you agree to abide by MC rules, fining or barring an owner from using their apartment for Airbnb probably doesn’t extend beyond informing the council that an owner is acting in contravention of the new legislation.

What happens if the owner tells the MC to PFO?, would they sue for breach of contract?

Jamsiek

Dav010 wrote: »

How can fines be enforced? Having served as a MC director for a few years, legal advice on penalising late payment of subs was that MC had no legal basis for fining/charging owners for anything. Though you agree to abide by MC rules, fining or barring an owner from using their apartment for Airbnb probably doesn’t extend beyond informing the council that an owner is acting in contravention of the new legislation.

What happens if the owner tells the MC to PFO?

The owner pays strata fees and is contractually bound to obey the strata rules in the building. I'm not sure how they are enforced though but I know they have regular meetings.
I'd be interested to find out how many of these fines are actually imposed but I don't attend the meetings, just second hand information.

Dav010

Jamsiek wrote: »

The owner pays strata fees and is contractually bound to obey the strata rules in the building. I'm not sure how they are enforced though but I know they have regular meetings.
I'd be interested to find out how many of these fines are actually imposed but I don't attend the meetings, just second hand information.

Getting legal advice and taking a legal case against a property owner for anything is expensive, if a MC did that every time an owner broke the rules, subs would be enormous. While the legislation can be brought to bare by the CoCo on an Airbnb host, I doubt any owner would be concerned about the MC banning it in an apartment complex.

mrslancaster

Excuse my ignorance but what are strata rules & strata fees?

Dav010

mrslancaster wrote: »

Excuse my ignorance but what are strata rules & strata fees?

US version of our Management Company subs.

Jamsiek

mrslancaster wrote: »

Excuse my ignorance but what are strata rules & strata fees?

The managers of the building provide services for the owners such as heating, cleaning, parking, dumping, recycling, etc. The fees cover this.
They also have regulations that the owners sign up to before taking possession of the property.

Jamsiek

Jamsiek wrote: »

The owner pays strata fees and is contractually bound to obey the strata rules in the building. I'm not sure how they are enforced though but I know they have regular meetings.
I'd be interested to find out how many of these fines are actually imposed but I don't attend the meetings, just second hand information.

That’s not Ireland though, here any attempt to fine would be laughed at. Not a chance it could be enforced.

awec

Carlos Slow Traitor wrote: »

That’s not Ireland though, here any attempt to fine would be laughed at. Not a chance it could be enforced.

Of course it can, you really do exist in your own little bubble don't you? Being in arrears with the management company can have all sorts of consequences, just recently someone on here was posting how they lost access to the car park.

And good luck ever selling a property if you're in arrears with the management company.

Dav010

awec wrote: »

Of course it can. Being in arrears with the management company can have all sorts of consequences, just recently someone on here was posting how they lost access to the car park.

And good luck ever selling a property if you're in arrears with the management company.

Being in arrears is different, fining someone for smoking on a balcony or Airbnb will not have consequences when selling.

As I said, legal advice we got was that fining owners was unenforceable.