Dublin Bus selling some of its VTs

thomasj

Th older 2005 registered ones up for sale
http://www.dublinbus.distilledads.ie/

Disappointed that they're getting rid of them as they have the greater capacity, but to be fair, IMHO, for someone who has to stand on a full bus, the SG buses are better built for the crowds.

I hope the NTA/DB know what they're doing, to make up for the loss of capacity.

bk

What I've always wondered about the VT's is their on paper capacity versus real world capacity.

On paper they have great capacity, but in the real world I wonder if they often actually come close to it. Their long length and in particular single door and lack of standing space makes me think that the real world capacity is far less. I've often seen VT's fly by without stopping, with a couple of people standing by the driver, but clearly lots of standing room behind and empty seats upstairs.

I'd love to see the data on average peak time capacity of a VT versus SG. Obviously DB and the NTA most have it from the ticket machines. I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't too much difference.

BTW There are now Euro 6 engineed tri-axles, so maybe they will replace them with those.

StreetLight

They won't be replaced by similar large-capacity types. At least for the foreseeable.

punisher5112

124 is the number it can carry and I know of numerous occasions there was way more then that on it.

They can carry alright.

_Kaiser_

I've seen things on YouTube before where people convert ex-city buses and coaches into campers. One of these would be kinda cool and certainly cheaper than rent in Dublin if you had the conversion costs.

punisher5112

Best thing to drive in the wet they are tail happy, great fun to drive.

_Kaiser_

punisher5112 wrote: »

Best thing to drive in the wet they are tail happy, great fun to drive.

Fun in the snow too...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZzNwKLFNYU

thomasj

punisher5112 wrote:

124 is the number it can carry and I know of numerous occasions there was way more then that on it.

punisher5112 wrote:

They can carry alright.

There was an occasion on Wednesday evening around 7.30 of two full 39As together heading outbound at that time.

It's quite often VTs would be full on this route so i hope they get their plans for this route right.

bk

If they are going to do big tri-axles though, it should be done properly. Triple door, dual stairs like Hong Kong are getting.

Problem is, I don't think there are any hybrid or biogas tri-axles on the market, so wouldn't go with the no more Diesel directive from next year.

Maybe BRT style bendy buses could deliver the capacity on some routes where suitable.

KD345

bk wrote: »

On paper they have great capacity, but in the real world I wonder if they often actually come close to it. Their long length and in particular single door and lack of standing space makes me think that the real world capacity is far less. I've often seen VT's fly by without stopping, with a couple of people standing by the driver, but clearly lots of standing room behind and empty seats upstairs.

Travel the N11 any morning and you’ll see how full they get.

It’s a strange decision not to replace them with similar capacity vehicles. Considering you need three SGs to meet the capacity of two VTs, it means an extra driver and fuel etc. At a time when passenger numbers are increasing rapidly it’s odd.

punisher5112

These vt have plenty more life as the 1st few years of their service they weren't ran at weekends and were only on peak runs.

Mileage was extremely low.

dfx-

thomasj wrote: »

Th older 2005 registered ones up for sale
http://www.dublinbus.distilledads.ie/

Disappointed that they're getting rid of them as they have the greater capacity, but to be fair, IMHO, for someone who has to stand on a full bus, the SG buses are better built for the crowds.

I hope the NTA/DB know what they're doing, to make up for the loss of capacity.

Terrible decision, but inevitable. Great buses.

bk

Interesting, Go Ahead in London are trailing a hybrid tri-axle bus for London Bus:

https://cbwmagazine.com/london-to-try-a-tri-axle-decker/

Looks nice, though only one stairs.

If it works out, perhaps their is hope for new tri-axles for us in a few years if GA bring across their experience.

Thing is London Bus don't currently operate any tri-axles, so clearly they aren't a most for a big city operator.

BTW, very interesting and cool, I wish all DB buses had this brilliant feature:

The bus is also equipped with occupancy indicators, with displays in the cab and at the bottom of the staircase showing the number of free seats available.

bk

Reading a little more about this bus, it is even more impressive. It has a 29kwh battery, that is as much as many full EV cars have (e.g. Leaf 24 and 30, Ioniq), by comparison a typical London Bus hybrid has only 5kwh battery!

So this is more like a full EV bus, with a range extender engine, rather then a typical hybrid, nice.

Stephen15

thomasj wrote: »

There was an occasion on Wednesday evening around 7.30 of two full 39As together heading outbound at that time.

It's quite often VTs would be full on this route so i hope they get their plans for this route right.

The Phibsoboro ones on the 39a are all 07 and it's only the 05 ones in Donnybrook which are being withdrawn. The 07 ones will still be around for a few more years. Although it wouldn't surprise me if some of the 07 buses in Phibsboro were moved to Donnybrook in the meantime to replace the void being left from the 05 buses in Donnybrook which mostly work the 46a.

_Kaiser_

Is this another "plate" decision that's driving this, or is there any reason these are being sold if they've had a (relatively) easier life than comparable AV's of that vintage?

I know they're supposed to be hard on tyres. Can't imagine the diesel is cheap, but is it a decision that makes sense given their capacity until a better replacement (like maybe that new Tri-Ax bk refers to) is found?

Stephen15

bk wrote: »

Interesting, Go Ahead in London are trailing a hybrid tri-axle bus for London Bus:

https://cbwmagazine.com/london-to-try-a-tri-axle-decker/

Looks nice, though only one stairs.

If it works out, perhaps their is hope for new tri-axles for us in a few years if GA bring across their experience.

Thing is London Bus don't currently operate any tri-axles, so clearly they aren't a most for a big city operator.

BTW, very interesting and cool, I wish all DB buses had this brilliant feature:

I have heard they have problems. They sound like a downgrade on an LT (New Routemaster) as they only have three doors. From what I believe TfL want to replace the LTs due to the amount of fare evasion that's happening on them as people are getting without paying on the back and middle doors. Tfl want drivers to take more responsibility for fare evasion from what I believe however that doesn't seem to be much of a worry for DB or the NTA.

The problems with these buses are mainly from the fact that they are designed with coach bodywork rather than as a city bus. Plenty of the features in the drivers cab are out of reach of the driver which is a safety. Also the doors on these look pretty narrow.

AlekSmart

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Is this another "plate" decision that's driving this, or is there any reason these are being sold if they've had a (relatively) easier life than comparable AV's of that vintage?

I know they're supposed to be hard on tyres. Can't imagine the diesel is cheap, but is it a decision that makes sense given their capacity until a better replacement (like maybe that new Tri-Ax bk refers to) is found?

The NTA had intimated that they might consider relaxing their current 14 year limit for PSO vehicles.
However it appears that they decided that there is enough funding for shiny new machines,even if these will come nowhere near directly replacing the VT's.

These machines will sell rapidly,and re-enter service equally so,in the hands of a private operator,less constrained by the wishes of eager young degree holding laptop bearers.

There is little indication as yet,that the NTA allocate any more priority to effective Bus design,than they do to preserving the sanctity of the Official Languages Act

Stephen15

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Is this another "plate" decision that's driving this, or is there any reason these are being sold if they've had a (relatively) easier life than comparable AV's of that vintage?

I know they're supposed to be hard on tyres. Can't imagine the diesel is cheap, but is it a decision that makes sense given their capacity until a better replacement (like maybe that new Tri-Ax bk refers to) is found?

I'm guessing it's because these buses are now approaching 14 years old.

_Kaiser_

Stephen15 wrote: »

I'm guessing it's because these buses are now approaching 14 years old.

My point is that if they are (relatively - by bus standards) low mileage and still a lot of life in them then the question should have been asked whether they should be disposed of now rather than kept going another while if the capacity differences over the newer models made sense to do so.

But then, this is a country obsessed with reg plates and where anything over 10 years or 100k km becomes a obsolete deathtrap, so not that surprising really.

As I've said on this forum before, it makes little sense to me to be disposing of perfectly good vehicles that are still then in daily use elsewhere "just cause" - and I don't buy that fancier front-ends and WiFi are a worthwhile trade for the expense of a new bus.

punisher5112

Donnybrook has 15 07 ones

Stephen15

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

My point is that if they are (relatively - by bus standards) low mileage and still a lot of life in them then the question should have been asked whether they should be disposed of now rather than kept going another while if the capacity differences over the newer models made sense to do so.

But then, this is a country obsessed with reg plates and where anything over 10 years or 100k km becomes a obsolete deathtrap, so not that surprising really.

As I've said on this forum before, it makes little sense to me to be disposing of perfectly good vehicles that are still then in daily use elsewhere "just cause" - and I don't buy that fancier front-ends and WiFi are a worthwhile trade for the expense of a new bus.

While I generally quite like the VTs as a bus and I think their lives could have extended and DB could have blended their 14 year rule as these buses don't have as much miles on the clock as other buses of a similar vintage. I like them but they are not without their flaws. I can see why the NTA want dual door buses as improve dwell times and even more so with BC infrastructure in place which would allow them be used at all stops.

They should be replaced with similar sized with two or preferably three sets of doors. I like the VTs I remember when they were first introduced and thinking they were great improvement on the buses that were in service at that time.

You also have to remember that new buses are more fuel efficient and more economically viable to maintain than keeping older buses on the road that's the main reason they are being withdrawn.

Stephen15

I would hope one or two are preserved as they are one of the more unique and somewhat iconic buses to operate in Dublin over the years.

n!ghtmancometh

Stephen15 wrote: »

While I generally quite like the VTs as a bus and I think their lives could have extended and DB could have blended their 14 year rule as these buses don't have as much miles on the clock as other buses of a similar vintage. I like them but they are not without their flaws. I can see why the NTA want dual door buses as improve dwell times and even more so with BC infrastructure in place which would allow them be used at all stops.

They should be replaced with similar sized with two or preferably three sets of doors. I like the VTs I remember when they were first introduced and thinking they were great improvement on the buses that were in service at that time.

You also have to remember that new buses are more fuel efficient and more economically viable to maintain than keeping older buses on the road that's the main reason they are being withdrawn.

Stops here are badly designed (designed being a generous description) for the two doors, no way would 3 door vehicles be considered!

Shame the VT's are being phased out. Such an illogical decision that will leave a lot more passengers standing like idiots as a jammed SG passes them by, discouraging bus usage. But the NTA don't seem to be too bothered about the
actual reality of using the services they ostensibly administer.

ted1

dfx- wrote: »

Terrible decision, but inevitable. Great buses.

13 years old , high fuel and maintenance costs and would be fully deprecated

Stephen15

n!ghtmancometh wrote: »

Stops here are badly designed (designed being a generous description) for the two doors, no way would 3 door vehicles be considered!

Shame the VT's are being phased out. Such an illogical decision that will leave a lot more passengers standing like idiots as a jammed SG passes them by, discouraging bus usage. But the NTA don't seem to be too bothered about the
actual reality of using the services they ostensibly administer.

Hopefully Bus Connects sorts things out some stops are bad particularly around the city centre I'm not denying that . While some drivers are great there is a cohort of mainly senior drivers who refuse to use middle doors even if it is perfectly safe to do so.

If the proper infrastructure is put no reason why we can't have three door buses sure even London manages them despite the fact the new Routemasters were a complete waste of money.

Shpud2

Just curious but how much would one of these be worth?

Stephen15

Shpud2 wrote: »

Just curious but how much would one of these be worth?

I wouldn't be sure but it would probably be a slightly higher amount than a regular DB bus up for sale. I'd be interested to see what kind of operators would be interested in these perhaps it would be the likes of those running concert shuttles and that kind of thing.

StreetLight

I'd say the likes of Swords Express or Ashbourne Connect would be interested in them.

dublinman1990

The VT's are a great asset to Dublin Bus. They are fast, reliable & are wonderful for easing capacity issues. I still think they badly needed to stay in Dublin. This has to be one of the most unnecessary things that Dublin Bus has done to try & run high capacity routes in Dublin. To get rid of high capacity buses when coming at a time when the population in Dublin is increasing is an odd decision to make. It does not give Dublin Bus any signals that they are to escape some suffering because of this decision. The commuters will not like this move when it start to give an affect on their most used high capacity route.

I still think the NTA have made a serious error in not allowing funding for new tri-axle buses to come in for Dublin Bus. If they were really serious in assuming that retaining the same level of capacity for these routes along the N11 will succeed with the loss of the VT's overtime; they could be in for a big shock. It is currently one of the biggest QBC's being used in Dublin. We're looking at a future which is going to be fully dependent on 2 axle double deck buses going along the N11 all the time. The future of people using Dublin Bus along this area is not to become rosy. If all those VT's were gone by tomorrow; commuters would not be happy with that outcome at all before their commute comes in Monday morning.

The VT's will be sadly missed by people when they inevitably all go off from Dublin Bus fleet altogether. When that time comes to us; it won't be a easy switch to permanent use for using 2 axle double deck buses. GAI have done it already with taking over the 75 two weeks ago even though when DB were using some of them on that route as they were a great help to ease capacity during the morning & evening peak times. It was remarked here on boards recently that the 75 with GAI had problems with suffering big delays in the mornings with traffic in Dublin. When large numbers of people begin to accumulate at bus stops in periods of heavy traffic when GAI are running the 75 at that crucial peak period of the day; it then starts to become a big potential problem if was not addressed in future.

If people living along high capacity route corridors find that they are being compromised with using smaller double decks on the N11. Their use of the car could turn into quite a domino effect in decreasing usage for buses in that area and this will be happening before BusConnects is eventually implemented in Dublin. Bus passengers numbers are growing in Dublin for a good few years. In a hypothetical sense if BusConnects here gets delayed again by the NTA until after 2020; what would bus usage be like by then along the N11? What would you think will happen if bus usage along this area was going through this scenario?

Stephen15

I agree with most of the above. I have mixed feelings about the VTs they are good well built buses but they are not without their flaws. I think it's stupid that such a large bus has only one entrance which is narrow and cramped compared to the SG class which has a good wide entrance and a set of centre doors which does speed up dwell times.

They are getting on a bit now but I think they could still have another year or two in service considering they did have a lighter life than other DB buses of a similar vintage. I do believe the NTA should be more high capacity buses as I do think they are needed. However the introduction the 45 at a 15 minute frequency will add significant additional capacity to the n11 corridor which should take some of the strain off the 145. Also the VTs only take 34 more passengers than a regular double decker but more could definitely be taken by having extra SGs.

Tickityboo

You say Vt's Only take 34 more passengers than a regular double decker!! So over a 3rd more than an SG which are heaps of junk!! The vts should be kept without question.

Sorry if that post is not clear but that is in response to Stephens post above.

punisher5112

The ones going have a narrow front door but the newer ones were widened.

The experience as a driver and a passenger on the vt is a 1,000 times better then anything we have now.

They will be really missed.

I can't see why they couldn't be kept another 5 years.

The ax spews out a lot of smoke where as these vt don't. Obviously they eat tyres as no rear steer and are quite thirsty but they are ideal for the runs they are on.

How are the 75 doing now without them as GA are running it now.

I seen the ones in Japan or China have lights that shine outwards from the rear wheel area to illuminate where the tyres can go.

Extremely good idea.

Stephen15

Tickityboo wrote: »

You say Vt's Only take 34 more passengers than a regular double decker!! So over a 3rd more than an SG which are heaps of junk!! The vts should be kept without question.

Sorry if that post is not clear but that is in response to Stephens post above.

I was saying that extra capacity in the form of a regular sized double decker would take more than an VT. There would definitely have to be a capacity increase to justify getting rid of the VTs. I wasn't giving a personal opinion on the SGs but think about which would carry more two SGs or one VT.

dfx-

ted1 wrote: »

13 years old , high fuel and maintenance costs and would be fully deprecated

13 years old is an arbitrary deadline..

They are extremely reliable and they are perfect for how this network has been set up to cause high volumes on major routes. There are many 39A, 46A, 145 passengers glad they have arrived where an SG would've been full.

Stephen15 wrote: »

Also the VTs only take 34 more passengers than a regular double decker but more could definitely be taken by having extra SGs.

That's when the VT is full, not that there would only be 34 people waiting for that single decker. You'd have to add on the people the VT turns away when full. It's 60+ more than an SG's capacity if it shows up instead.

Trying to replace buses as well built as the reliable sturdy VT with the 'lightly built' but still high cost likes of GTs and SGs is mad.

bk

Well on another forum, some are saying that the older VT's are experiencing reliability issues. Which being 14 years old now wouldn't be surprising, despite less miles on the clock.

But I was thinking about why it might actually be logical why operators don't want them and why even London Bus don't use tri-axles (beyond the above mentioned trial).

Someone above mentioned you would need 3 regular double deckers to replace 2 tri-axles, which is true. But I've been thinking that might actually be preferable to operators!

Think about it, the tri-axles are much more expensive to buy then regular double deckers, they would be the most expensive bus in your fleet, yet they are also your least used bus, you only use them on-peak, because off-peak their capacity isn't needed and they guzzle fuel.

So from an operators perspective, they are a bit of a waste, expensive to buy, expensive to maintain, expensive to fuel, but not used much!

I haven't seen prices on new tri-axles (there are very few, which is telling), but I suspect you could actually buy 3 SG buses for the price of 2 modern tri-axles. So there is no real money saving there, and 3 SG's would offer greater flexibility.

Yes, you would have the cost of an extra driver, but that would be offset by lower fuel and maintenance costs of a SG or similar.

But also 3 SG's would also have more capacity then 2 VT's (255 people for 3 SG's, versus 238 for 2 VT's conservatively speaking) so extra passengers would go towards paying for an extra driver. And you have the advantage of greater frequency on the route.

Of course I get why drivers like the VT's why it seems better that it can take more people. But sometimes if you step back and look at it from an operators perspective, you might see reasons why higher capacity vehicle isn't the better option.

Look at BE and Aircoach, BE use double decker coaches on some routes, then look at Aircoach, all single decker coaches, when they are busy, they just send a second single decker, so obviously it isn't a straight forward decision.

bk

dfx- wrote: »

That's when the VT is full, not that there would only be 34 people waiting for that single decker. You'd have to add on the people the VT turns away when full. It's 60+ more than an SG's capacity if it shows up instead.

These VT's are 119 capacity, the SG is 85, only 34 difference.

And 3 SG's carry 30 more then 2 VT.

dfx- wrote: »

Trying to replace buses as well built as the reliable sturdy VT with the 'lightly built' but still high cost likes of GTs and SGs is mad.

This is down to environmental reasons. More modern buses of all types (including tri-axles) are lighter in order to meet much stricter emission standards, Euro 6.

You know, so we don't have buses blowing cancer causing PM's and NOX emissions into our faces on our city streets.

Stephen15

dfx- wrote: »

That's when the VT is full, not that there would only be 34 people waiting for that single decker. You'd have to add on the people the VT turns away when full. It's 60+ more than an SG's capacity if it shows up instead.

Trying to replace buses as well built as the reliable sturdy VT with the 'lightly built' but still high cost likes of GTs and SGs is mad.

But two SGs can carry more than one VT. It's bit like the fact that buying two regular sized boxes of corn flakes is likely better value for money than buying one jumbo pack.

Another problem with VTs is their lack of flexibility as certain routes can't have to their large size and they can't take certain tight corners whereas a regular sized bus can work on any route.

punisher5112

124 is the number a vt can carry.... I've had many more on then that over the years.

Last bus, concerts you name it.

They are used all the time now but all wouldn't be out at weekends but they do put them on more then the 1st few years.

I will honestly miss them.

Seriously powerful, great feedback from steering and just feel solid.

The newer batch aren't anywhere near as powerful from 21 up to 70 nearly sure it's 70 as donnybrook got a batch up to model 35 a few years back.


Price tag on an SG is around €350k

bk

punisher5112 wrote: »

124 is the number a vt can carry.... I've had many more on then that over the years.

119 for the 2005 VT's that they are currently getting rid off. The 2007 VT's are 124

The SG's can take a lot more then their plate too, the capacity number on the plate isn't really reality as most know and changes over the years (I think different years SG's have had different numbers despite not otherwise changing!).

punisher5112 wrote: »

Price tag on an SG is around €350k

I know and a modern triaxle would cost a lot more. Specially the one being trialled in London, since it is based on a coach body, a hybrid and has a 40kwh battery. Also the fact that so few triaxles are built nowadays, it would be pretty much custom build.

punisher5112

As I said they can hold more then that.

Sg 1st batch have a lower number then the later ones but absolutely no change in design.

It will be interesting to see what style hybrid we will be getting.

I hope they come before I go as would like to see what they are like.

bk

Yes choosing the type and size of vehicle is not easy and you have to balance cost with demand and many other issues.

You can certainly go too far in the other direction too. Cork City in the past was a terrible example of this. The single deckers were completely unsuitable. But then you have to remember that the real problem in Cork was the combination of small vehicles and poor frequency. It was infuriating in Cork seeing a full bus drive by you, because you knew the next bus will be 30 or 40 minutes on many routes!

That is less of an issue in Dublin on routes with high frequency. At my local route, buses often pass by full, but it doesn't bother me much, as I know there will be another one by in 2 or 3 minutes.

Remember the capacity of a route is frequency x capacity of each vehicle. As long as they are replacing the VT's with more buses/frequency, it shouldn't make much if any difference.

Hell massive Chinese cities get by with just single decker buses, the difference is they just have massive numbers of these buses.

Stephen15

punisher5112 wrote: »

It will be interesting to see what style hybrid we will be getting.

I hope they come before I go as would like to see what they are like.

It wouldn't surprise me if it's something from Wrightbus similar to the SGs with hybrid transmission. I heard they were meant to trial some this year but I've yet to hear any news on that since.

bk

Stephen15 wrote: »

It wouldn't surprise me if it's something from Wrightbus similar to the SGs with hybrid transmission. I heard they were meant to trial some this year but I've yet to hear any news on that since.

There has also been a lot of rumours that we might get biogas buses instead of hybrids!

Seems strange though, it is pretty unusual for us to do something so radically different from the UK.

punisher5112

They had a gas bus back in 97 it never worked and had to be filled at the docks.

bk

punisher5112 wrote: »

They had a gas bus back in 97 it never worked and had to be filled at the docks.

Ay, I'm quite dubious when I first heard it.

Though other cities have been successfully using them for years, hundreds running around various Swedish, Norwegian, etc. cities. So it does work, if you have the supporting infrastructure.

But as you say, I'd wonder about how and who is going to pay for depots to be upgraded for it and how neighbours would react.

And while it has decent CO performance, PM and Nox are questionable versus modern Diesels.

I would have thought that just following Londons example and going Hybrid would be the easiest approach all round.

Stephen15

punisher5112 wrote: »

They had a gas bus back in 97 it never worked and had to be filled at the docks.

The hybrid VG didn't work out either was very unreliable and ended up going up in flames when it was sold on over in the UK.

AlekSmart

Stephen15 wrote: »

Hopefully Bus Connects sorts things out some stops are bad particularly around the city centre I'm not denying that . While some drivers are great there is a cohort of mainly senior drivers who refuse to use middle doors even if it is perfectly safe to do so.

If the proper infrastructure is put no reason why we can't have three door buses sure even London manages them despite the fact the new Routemasters were a complete waste of money.

Perhaps you might reflect on the generalization regarding individual Busdrivers (Senior or not),as it really does little to add to the current thread.

If you are offering an opinion on Centre Door useage as a passenger,well and good,but a Busdrivers opinion of "Perfectly Safe" and your own,may well differ for perfectly valid reasons,even if these are not visible to you at the point of exit.

The regulations on Bus Stop design & Installation can be found in the Traffic Signs Manual of the Dept of Transport.

http://trafficsigns.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/07-traffic-signs-manual-2010-chapter-7-road-markings.pdf

7.7.3
The major factor in achieving parallel docking at a bus stop is the
entry and exit distance required. At a typical roadside bus stop, a
conventional 12m European standard bus requires a minimum
overall clearance of 37m of unimpeded access (see Figure 7.28);
an articulated bus needs 49m. Vehicles parked or loading
adjacent to the bus stop can result in buses failing to achieve
parallel docking or having to stop too far from the kerb, requiring
passengers to step into the carriageway to board and alight.

This is the Department of Transport's own recommendation,which I suggest is more featured in omission rather than actuality ?

Stephen15

AlekSmart wrote: »

Perhaps you might reflect on the generalization regarding individual Busdrivers (Senior or not),as it really does little to add to the current thread.

If you are offering an opinion on Centre Door useage as a passenger,well and good,but a Busdrivers opinion of "Perfectly Safe" and your own,may well differ for perfectly valid reasons,even if these are not visible to you at the point of exit.

I wasn't making a generalisation but from what I have observed it is mostly older drivers who I assume are senior who don't use them. I have also seen drivers whom I would also assume are senior who do use them.

From what I have observed is that there are certain drivers who do not use them as at every single stop they don't use even them even when at these stops most other drivers would use them at a particular stop. So it seems one bus drivers opinion of perectly safe would differ to another bus drivers not just a passengers. I think a tram/train style passenger operated middle door would be the best solution similar to in other cities.

AlekSmart

Stephen15 wrote: »

I wasn't making a generalisation but from what I have observed it is mostly older drivers who I assume are senior who don't use them. I have also seen drivers whom I would also assume are senior who do use them.

From what I have observed is that there are certain drivers who do not use them as at every single stop they don't use even them even when at these stops most other drivers would use them at a particular stop. So it seems one bus drivers opinion of perectly safe would differ to another bus drivers not just a passengers. I think a tram/train style passenger operated middle door would be the best solution similar to in other cities.

Bus Atha Cliath,in line with policy regarding ageism,have recruited new staff up to 61 years of age,some of them who look it,and some very well preserved.

Looks can,and do decieve,so really should be avoided when generalising.

I would suggest that,as you carry out significant amounts of "observations" across Bus Service provision,it might be more productive were you to provide these to either,Bus Atha Cliath or the NTA,FIRST and then perhaps inform the Board as to their response/s ?

punisher5112

I will use double doors once safe.

If a cyclist can fit up then it's not safe.

I've had people hit but on the footpath where if it were to happen on the road where it's not safe I would be in huge trouble.