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Dublin Bus selling some of its VTs

  • 19-10-2018 10:18am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 4,672 ✭✭✭ thomasj


    Th older 2005 registered ones up for sale
    http://www.dublinbus.distilledads.ie/

    Disappointed that they're getting rid of them as they have the greater capacity, but to be fair, IMHO, for someone who has to stand on a full bus, the SG buses are better built for the crowds.

    I hope the NTA/DB know what they're doing, to make up for the loss of capacity.


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Comments

  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 21,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    What I've always wondered about the VT's is their on paper capacity versus real world capacity.

    On paper they have great capacity, but in the real world I wonder if they often actually come close to it. Their long length and in particular single door and lack of standing space makes me think that the real world capacity is far less. I've often seen VT's fly by without stopping, with a couple of people standing by the driver, but clearly lots of standing room behind and empty seats upstairs.

    I'd love to see the data on average peak time capacity of a VT versus SG. Obviously DB and the NTA most have it from the ticket machines. I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't too much difference.

    BTW There are now Euro 6 engineed tri-axles, so maybe they will replace them with those.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,220 ✭✭✭ StreetLight


    They won't be replaced by similar large-capacity types. At least for the foreseeable.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,683 ✭✭✭✭ punisher5112


    124 is the number it can carry and I know of numerous occasions there was way more then that on it.

    They can carry alright.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,297 ✭✭✭✭ _Kaiser_


    I've seen things on YouTube before where people convert ex-city buses and coaches into campers. One of these would be kinda cool and certainly cheaper than rent in Dublin if you had the conversion costs. :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,683 ✭✭✭✭ punisher5112


    Best thing to drive in the wet they are tail happy, great fun to drive.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 27,297 ✭✭✭✭ _Kaiser_


    Best thing to drive in the wet they are tail happy, great fun to drive.

    Fun in the snow too... :p



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,672 ✭✭✭ thomasj


    124 is the number it can carry and I know of numerous occasions there was way more then that on it.
    They can carry alright.

    There was an occasion on Wednesday evening around 7.30 of two full 39As together heading outbound at that time.

    It's quite often VTs would be full on this route so i hope they get their plans for this route right.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 21,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    If they are going to do big tri-axles though, it should be done properly. Triple door, dual stairs like Hong Kong are getting.

    Problem is, I don't think there are any hybrid or biogas tri-axles on the market, so wouldn't go with the no more Diesel directive from next year.

    Maybe BRT style bendy buses could deliver the capacity on some routes where suitable.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,158 ✭✭✭ KD345


    bk wrote: »
    On paper they have great capacity, but in the real world I wonder if they often actually come close to it. Their long length and in particular single door and lack of standing space makes me think that the real world capacity is far less. I've often seen VT's fly by without stopping, with a couple of people standing by the driver, but clearly lots of standing room behind and empty seats upstairs.

    Travel the N11 any morning and you’ll see how full they get.

    It’s a strange decision not to replace them with similar capacity vehicles. Considering you need three SGs to meet the capacity of two VTs, it means an extra driver and fuel etc. At a time when passenger numbers are increasing rapidly it’s odd.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,683 ✭✭✭✭ punisher5112


    These vt have plenty more life as the 1st few years of their service they weren't ran at weekends and were only on peak runs.

    Mileage was extremely low.


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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭ dfx-


    thomasj wrote: »
    Th older 2005 registered ones up for sale
    http://www.dublinbus.distilledads.ie/

    Disappointed that they're getting rid of them as they have the greater capacity, but to be fair, IMHO, for someone who has to stand on a full bus, the SG buses are better built for the crowds.

    I hope the NTA/DB know what they're doing, to make up for the loss of capacity.

    Terrible decision, but inevitable. Great buses.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 21,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    Interesting, Go Ahead in London are trailing a hybrid tri-axle bus for London Bus:

    https://cbwmagazine.com/london-to-try-a-tri-axle-decker/

    Looks nice, though only one stairs.

    If it works out, perhaps their is hope for new tri-axles for us in a few years if GA bring across their experience.

    Thing is London Bus don't currently operate any tri-axles, so clearly they aren't a most for a big city operator.

    BTW, very interesting and cool, I wish all DB buses had this brilliant feature:
    The bus is also equipped with occupancy indicators, with displays in the cab and at the bottom of the staircase showing the number of free seats available.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 21,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    Reading a little more about this bus, it is even more impressive. It has a 29kwh battery, that is as much as many full EV cars have (e.g. Leaf 24 and 30, Ioniq), by comparison a typical London Bus hybrid has only 5kwh battery!

    So this is more like a full EV bus, with a range extender engine, rather then a typical hybrid, nice.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭ Stephen15


    thomasj wrote: »
    There was an occasion on Wednesday evening around 7.30 of two full 39As together heading outbound at that time.

    It's quite often VTs would be full on this route so i hope they get their plans for this route right.

    The Phibsoboro ones on the 39a are all 07 and it's only the 05 ones in Donnybrook which are being withdrawn. The 07 ones will still be around for a few more years. Although it wouldn't surprise me if some of the 07 buses in Phibsboro were moved to Donnybrook in the meantime to replace the void being left from the 05 buses in Donnybrook which mostly work the 46a.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,297 ✭✭✭✭ _Kaiser_


    Is this another "plate" decision that's driving this, or is there any reason these are being sold if they've had a (relatively) easier life than comparable AV's of that vintage?

    I know they're supposed to be hard on tyres. Can't imagine the diesel is cheap, but is it a decision that makes sense given their capacity until a better replacement (like maybe that new Tri-Ax bk refers to) is found?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭ Stephen15


    bk wrote: »
    Interesting, Go Ahead in London are trailing a hybrid tri-axle bus for London Bus:

    https://cbwmagazine.com/london-to-try-a-tri-axle-decker/

    Looks nice, though only one stairs.

    If it works out, perhaps their is hope for new tri-axles for us in a few years if GA bring across their experience.

    Thing is London Bus don't currently operate any tri-axles, so clearly they aren't a most for a big city operator.

    BTW, very interesting and cool, I wish all DB buses had this brilliant feature:

    I have heard they have problems. They sound like a downgrade on an LT (New Routemaster) as they only have three doors. From what I believe TfL want to replace the LTs due to the amount of fare evasion that's happening on them as people are getting without paying on the back and middle doors. Tfl want drivers to take more responsibility for fare evasion from what I believe however that doesn't seem to be much of a worry for DB or the NTA.

    The problems with these buses are mainly from the fact that they are designed with coach bodywork rather than as a city bus. Plenty of the features in the drivers cab are out of reach of the driver which is a safety. Also the doors on these look pretty narrow.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,998 ✭✭✭✭ AlekSmart


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    Is this another "plate" decision that's driving this, or is there any reason these are being sold if they've had a (relatively) easier life than comparable AV's of that vintage?

    I know they're supposed to be hard on tyres. Can't imagine the diesel is cheap, but is it a decision that makes sense given their capacity until a better replacement (like maybe that new Tri-Ax bk refers to) is found?

    The NTA had intimated that they might consider relaxing their current 14 year limit for PSO vehicles.
    However it appears that they decided that there is enough funding for shiny new machines,even if these will come nowhere near directly replacing the VT's.

    These machines will sell rapidly,and re-enter service equally so,in the hands of a private operator,less constrained by the wishes of eager young degree holding laptop bearers.

    There is little indication as yet,that the NTA allocate any more priority to effective Bus design,than they do to preserving the sanctity of the Official Languages Act ;)


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭ Stephen15


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    Is this another "plate" decision that's driving this, or is there any reason these are being sold if they've had a (relatively) easier life than comparable AV's of that vintage?

    I know they're supposed to be hard on tyres. Can't imagine the diesel is cheap, but is it a decision that makes sense given their capacity until a better replacement (like maybe that new Tri-Ax bk refers to) is found?

    I'm guessing it's because these buses are now approaching 14 years old.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,297 ✭✭✭✭ _Kaiser_


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    I'm guessing it's because these buses are now approaching 14 years old.

    My point is that if they are (relatively - by bus standards) low mileage and still a lot of life in them then the question should have been asked whether they should be disposed of now rather than kept going another while if the capacity differences over the newer models made sense to do so.

    But then, this is a country obsessed with reg plates and where anything over 10 years or 100k km becomes a obsolete deathtrap, so not that surprising really.

    As I've said on this forum before, it makes little sense to me to be disposing of perfectly good vehicles that are still then in daily use elsewhere "just cause" - and I don't buy that fancier front-ends and WiFi are a worthwhile trade for the expense of a new bus.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,683 ✭✭✭✭ punisher5112


    Donnybrook has 15 07 ones


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭ Stephen15


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    My point is that if they are (relatively - by bus standards) low mileage and still a lot of life in them then the question should have been asked whether they should be disposed of now rather than kept going another while if the capacity differences over the newer models made sense to do so.

    But then, this is a country obsessed with reg plates and where anything over 10 years or 100k km becomes a obsolete deathtrap, so not that surprising really.

    As I've said on this forum before, it makes little sense to me to be disposing of perfectly good vehicles that are still then in daily use elsewhere "just cause" - and I don't buy that fancier front-ends and WiFi are a worthwhile trade for the expense of a new bus.

    While I generally quite like the VTs as a bus and I think their lives could have extended and DB could have blended their 14 year rule as these buses don't have as much miles on the clock as other buses of a similar vintage. I like them but they are not without their flaws. I can see why the NTA want dual door buses as improve dwell times and even more so with BC infrastructure in place which would allow them be used at all stops.

    They should be replaced with similar sized with two or preferably three sets of doors. I like the VTs I remember when they were first introduced and thinking they were great improvement on the buses that were in service at that time.

    You also have to remember that new buses are more fuel efficient and more economically viable to maintain than keeping older buses on the road that's the main reason they are being withdrawn.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭ Stephen15


    I would hope one or two are preserved as they are one of the more unique and somewhat iconic buses to operate in Dublin over the years.


  • Registered Users Posts: 407 ✭✭ n!ghtmancometh


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    While I generally quite like the VTs as a bus and I think their lives could have extended and DB could have blended their 14 year rule as these buses don't have as much miles on the clock as other buses of a similar vintage. I like them but they are not without their flaws. I can see why the NTA want dual door buses as improve dwell times and even more so with BC infrastructure in place which would allow them be used at all stops.

    They should be replaced with similar sized with two or preferably three sets of doors. I like the VTs I remember when they were first introduced and thinking they were great improvement on the buses that were in service at that time.

    You also have to remember that new buses are more fuel efficient and more economically viable to maintain than keeping older buses on the road that's the main reason they are being withdrawn.

    Stops here are badly designed (designed being a generous description) for the two doors, no way would 3 door vehicles be considered!

    Shame the VT's are being phased out. Such an illogical decision that will leave a lot more passengers standing like idiots as a jammed SG passes them by, discouraging bus usage. But the NTA don't seem to be too bothered about the
    actual reality of using the services they ostensibly administer.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,767 ✭✭✭✭ ted1


    dfx- wrote: »
    Terrible decision, but inevitable. Great buses.

    13 years old , high fuel and maintenance costs and would be fully deprecated


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭ Stephen15


    Stops here are badly designed (designed being a generous description) for the two doors, no way would 3 door vehicles be considered!

    Shame the VT's are being phased out. Such an illogical decision that will leave a lot more passengers standing like idiots as a jammed SG passes them by, discouraging bus usage. But the NTA don't seem to be too bothered about the
    actual reality of using the services they ostensibly administer.

    Hopefully Bus Connects sorts things out some stops are bad particularly around the city centre I'm not denying that . While some drivers are great there is a cohort of mainly senior drivers who refuse to use middle doors even if it is perfectly safe to do so.

    If the proper infrastructure is put no reason why we can't have three door buses sure even London manages them despite the fact the new Routemasters were a complete waste of money.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,749 ✭✭✭ Shpud2


    Just curious but how much would one of these be worth?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭ Stephen15


    Shpud2 wrote: »
    Just curious but how much would one of these be worth?

    I wouldn't be sure but it would probably be a slightly higher amount than a regular DB bus up for sale. I'd be interested to see what kind of operators would be interested in these perhaps it would be the likes of those running concert shuttles and that kind of thing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,220 ✭✭✭ StreetLight


    I'd say the likes of Swords Express or Ashbourne Connect would be interested in them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,680 ✭✭✭ dublinman1990


    The VT's are a great asset to Dublin Bus. They are fast, reliable & are wonderful for easing capacity issues. I still think they badly needed to stay in Dublin. This has to be one of the most unnecessary things that Dublin Bus has done to try & run high capacity routes in Dublin. To get rid of high capacity buses when coming at a time when the population in Dublin is increasing is an odd decision to make. It does not give Dublin Bus any signals that they are to escape some suffering because of this decision. The commuters will not like this move when it start to give an affect on their most used high capacity route.

    I still think the NTA have made a serious error in not allowing funding for new tri-axle buses to come in for Dublin Bus. If they were really serious in assuming that retaining the same level of capacity for these routes along the N11 will succeed with the loss of the VT's overtime; they could be in for a big shock. It is currently one of the biggest QBC's being used in Dublin. We're looking at a future which is going to be fully dependent on 2 axle double deck buses going along the N11 all the time. The future of people using Dublin Bus along this area is not to become rosy. If all those VT's were gone by tomorrow; commuters would not be happy with that outcome at all before their commute comes in Monday morning.

    The VT's will be sadly missed by people when they inevitably all go off from Dublin Bus fleet altogether. When that time comes to us; it won't be a easy switch to permanent use for using 2 axle double deck buses. GAI have done it already with taking over the 75 two weeks ago even though when DB were using some of them on that route as they were a great help to ease capacity during the morning & evening peak times. It was remarked here on boards recently that the 75 with GAI had problems with suffering big delays in the mornings with traffic in Dublin. When large numbers of people begin to accumulate at bus stops in periods of heavy traffic when GAI are running the 75 at that crucial peak period of the day; it then starts to become a big potential problem if was not addressed in future.

    If people living along high capacity route corridors find that they are being compromised with using smaller double decks on the N11. Their use of the car could turn into quite a domino effect in decreasing usage for buses in that area and this will be happening before BusConnects is eventually implemented in Dublin. Bus passengers numbers are growing in Dublin for a good few years. In a hypothetical sense if BusConnects here gets delayed again by the NTA until after 2020; what would bus usage be like by then along the N11? What would you think will happen if bus usage along this area was going through this scenario?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭ Stephen15


    I agree with most of the above. I have mixed feelings about the VTs they are good well built buses but they are not without their flaws. I think it's stupid that such a large bus has only one entrance which is narrow and cramped compared to the SG class which has a good wide entrance and a set of centre doors which does speed up dwell times.

    They are getting on a bit now but I think they could still have another year or two in service considering they did have a lighter life than other DB buses of a similar vintage. I do believe the NTA should be more high capacity buses as I do think they are needed. However the introduction the 45 at a 15 minute frequency will add significant additional capacity to the n11 corridor which should take some of the strain off the 145. Also the VTs only take 34 more passengers than a regular double decker but more could definitely be taken by having extra SGs.


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