NBA Regular Season & Playoffs 2018-19 Thread

Morrison J

Harden not getting the calls he'd get in the regular season every single time. Predictable but the inconsistency is annoying. Fouls are fouls.

Osmosis Jones

Morrison J wrote: »

Harden not getting the calls he'd get in the regular season every single time. Predictable but the inconsistency is annoying. Fouls are fouls.

I mean he still shot 14 free throws, tough to say he was too hard done by.

Morrison J

The Rockets have got absolutely screwed in this game. Apparently you can jump straight into the opponents landing spot when contesting a three now.

Morrison J

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

I mean he still shot 14 free throws, tough to say he was too hard done by.

They were all from attacking the basket. It's the foul off his three point shot that they've just suddenly stopped calling. Really strange.

Morrison J

https://twitter.com/rudygobert27/status/1122622433717043202?s=19

Elmer Jones

I don't feel too much sympathy for Harden, he's been playing the refs getting favourable calls the last few years so it's about time it balanced out and he had a game where things didnt go his way.

K.O.Kiki

Morrison J wrote: »

The Rockets have got absolutely screwed in this game. Apparently you can jump straight into the opponents landing spot when contesting a three now.

The Rockets & refs do Steph dirtier, so they can take their crying elsewhere.

Hitch2222

Elmer Jones wrote: »

I don't feel too much sympathy for Harden, he's been playing the refs getting favourable calls the last few years so it's about time it balanced out and he had a game where things didnt go his way.

People may not be a fan of his ability to draw fouls which is fair enough and I tend to agree that games even themselves out but some of the calls were ridiculous.

The refs deciding to invoke rules where a substantially different level of contact is allowed is simply not fair if the rules have not been changed.

He was definitely fouled when Livingston jumped into his landing zone, I'm fine with not agreeing with the current rules but being happy because Harden has been "playing official" is ridiculous imo, he takes advantage of the rules better than everyone else and he deserved the call, it's simple.

Elmer Jones

Hitch2222 wrote: »

People may not be a fan of his ability to draw fouls which is fair enough and I tend to agree that games even themselves out but some of the calls were ridiculous.

The refs deciding to invoke rules where a substantially different level of contact is allowed is simply not fair if the rules have not been changed.

He was definitely fouled when Livingston jumped into his landing zone, I'm fine with not agreeing with the current rules but being happy because Harden has been "playing official" is ridiculous imo, he takes advantage of the rules better than everyone else and he deserved the call, it's simple.

Some of calls were bad however in any sport if you have a style of play where taking advantage of the rules is the way you operate it will come back to bite you at some stage and you won't get some calls you deserve to get.

Osmosis Jones

There were a few bad incidents where Klay stepped into Harden's space and no foul was called:



Harden's shot on the final possession of the game was not one of these moments, he leaps forward into Draymond trying to bait the refs, look at how far forward he travels compared to Draymond, that's an offensive foul if anything:



Here's Harden stepping into Curry's landing zone and no foul being called:



Here's Steph getting a clean steal and having it be called as his 5th foul, resulting in him having to be benched:



Here's Harden grabbing Looney's arm and getting 2 free throws :



The refs weren't out to get Houston.

Hitch2222

The Draymond call seems fair enough but I'd argue the Klay & Livingston call. Klay landed in an area where arguably his feet were not where Harden wouldn't have reached. However his body was slightly further forward so Harden drawing contact there seems fine.

Additionally Harden jumps ever so slightly forward on his jumper and invokes a slightly more staggered and agile stance than that of someone like Klay. Livingstons looks like a no brainer call to me

Comparing the Steph non-call to Hardens seems a substantial reach to me? Harden didn't even contest the shot and he quite literally stopped when he realised how close he was, that's not comparable to Livingston or Klays contesting. Clear difference in intent imo.

I agree calls tend to even themselves out over a season and no one -here at least- is claiming that refs are out to get the Rockets.
That said, I don't think sharing missed calls good or bad on the side of GSW means anything.
There's no bias at play imo, what may be at play though is this archaic idea that just because it's the playoffs, calls that exist in the regular season shouldn't always translate to the playoffs.
That is ridiculous, the game should be officiated the exact same way so whether that means greater leniency in the regular season or more stern officiating in the playoffs, continuity should exist.

Change the rules to prevent Harden from utilising a skill he's crafted, that's 100% fine but change it after the season.
It's a game of fine margins and making the correct calls in vital moments is paramount and it's fair to say they were incorrect in key moments here.

Hitch2222

Elmer Jones wrote: »

Some of calls were bad however in any sport if you have a style of play where taking advantage of the rules is the way you operate it will come back to bite you at some stage and you won't get some calls you deserve to get.

Everyone plays the rules to their advantage, it's sport that's what athletes do, soccer player feigning injury, Richie McCaw in rugby, Ebdon in snooker, we could be here for a month.
In basketball 3 second rules in and out of the key, 24 sec clock from the moment you touch the ball, continuation in "act of shooting" all plays on the rules.

Harden simply does what he does better than most. His draws such attention because what he does leads to situations where the probability of 2 points occurring when driving to the basket is approx 80% so it's success is self evident.

Elmer Jones

Hitch2222 wrote: »

Everyone plays the rules to their advantage, it's sport that's what athletes do, soccer player feigning injury, Richie McCaw in rugby, Ebdon in snooker, we could be here for a month.
In basketball 3 second rules in and out of the key, 24 sec clock from the moment you touch the ball, continuation in "act of shooting" all plays on the rules.

Harden simply does what he does better than most. His draws such attention because what he does leads to situations where the probability of 2 points occurring when driving to the basket is approx 80% so it's success is self evident.

But the point I'm making is that if you play the rules to your advantage where you require the ref to make a decision in your favour then it isn't always going to go your way.Rules are open to interpretation and decisions are being made by human beings and therefore you can't expect any consistency in the making of decisions and you can't expect the playing of the rules to your advantage to always work for you and in this instance it didn't work for Harden.You live by the sword you die by the sword.

ButtersSuki

Some of those calls last night were bad calls or no calls, true. Some however were correct no calls, and if anything could have been called offensive calls.

A shooter is entitled to a "landing zone" (incorrect verbiage btw, but it seems to have become the nom du jour), but so is the defender who contests the shot, but you are not entitled to exaggerate or over-extend what would be a natural landing motion/sequence. The principle of verticality was the standard for this, but it's admittedly an awful long time since I did my referring exams. I for one would like to see more offensive fouls called on offensive players who clearly initiate contact in these situations.

Also, if you watch the last play, Harden has made such an egregious flop looking for the call that he's still on the floor when Paul gets the offensive rebound. Paul looks for Harden but can't get him the ball as....he's on the ground. Now here's a thought, instead of playing for that foul, complaining, and lying on the ground if you were active and on your feet you'd have a chance to get free and have a second chance to tie the game - wouldn't that have been a better use of mental and physical energy at that time?

It's also a bit cry-babyish when the guy who's lead the league (by a considerable distance too) in Free Throw Attempts for 5 straight years is talking about being reffed fairly.

ButtersSuki

I don't have a subscription to The Athletic but this is a piece reportedly fed to them by Houston.

https://theathletic.com/952359/2019/04/28/sources-rockets-game-one-officiating-rage-is-rooted-in-warriors-research/

Daryl Morey applying the pressure through PR. :rolleyes:

Interesting Michel Lewis (Moneyball author) talks about NBA referring in a new podcast he has and that superstars are the ones most likely to complain when they don't get every call. It was mentioned on the podcast he did with Bill Simmons that I mentioned last week. Worth listening to IMO.

Hitch2222

Elmer Jones wrote: »

But the point I'm making is that if you play the rules to your advantage where you require the ref to make a decision in your favour then it isn't always going to go your way.Rules are open to interpretation and decisions are being made by human beings and therefore you can't expect any consistency in the making of decisions and you can't expect the playing of the rules to your advantage to always work for you and in this instance it didn't work for Harden.You live by the sword you die by the sword.

The point here though is that the calls which Harden didn't receive shouldn't be open to interpretation because they were clearly fouls within the current law of the game. Hardens ability to push the boundaries should be irrelevant and calls shouldn't be conditional on his previous play especially with so much on the line.

They're not particularly ambiguous situations imo. His reputation preceded him which shouldn't be the case. Furthermore the malleability of the rules shouldnt be contingent on the stage of the season.
Harden rightly gets those calls during the regular season so he should get them in the post season.

ButtersSuki wrote: »

It's also a bit cry-babyish when the guy who's lead the league (by a considerable distance too) in Free Throw Attempts for 5 straight years is talking about being reffed fairly.

So if someone leads the league in FT attempts, it automatically means that they receive a higher proportion of favourable calls than another player?
It seems more likely that they put themselves in a position more often to draw fouls.

He has every right to feel aggrieved in this situation, leading the league in FT attempts for 5 years is completely- or at least should be- irrelevant.

Elmer Jones

Hitch2222 wrote: »

The point here though is that the calls which Harden didn't receive shouldn't be open to interpretation because they were clearly fouls within the current law of the game. Hardens ability to push the boundaries should be irrelevant and calls shouldn't be conditional on his previous play especially with so much on the line.

They're not particularly ambiguous situations imo. His reputation preceded him which shouldn't be the case. Furthermore the malleability of the rules shouldnt be contingent on the stage of the season.
Harden rightly gets those calls during the regular season so he should get them in the post season.

Fouls in sports like Basketball,soccer, rugby,ice hockey,gridiron and basically any sport where there is some degree of contact occurring during play are open to interpretation by the officials.

You cannot expect the referees to be 100% correct all the time and having a playing style based on referees doing their job properly is risky because referees are human and prone to error.

Carcharodon

I think the league is just finally catching up to how Harden (and a lot others) create these fouls, it’s pretty god damn obvious in most cases, one of the refs released a very good statement stating why they were not called. Hopefully it continues this way and league doesn’t cave.
Rockets are turning into the Clippers of a few years ago, just a bunch of whining little bitches, hopefully this motivates the Warriors to get the finger out a bit

Hitch2222

Elmer Jones wrote: »

Fouls in sports like Basketball,soccer, rugby,ice hockey,gridiron and basically any sport where there is some degree of contact occurring during play are open to interpretation by the officials.

You cannot expect the referees to be 100% correct all the time and having a playing style based on referees doing their job properly is risky because referees are human and prone to error.

Again I'm not arguing that, as I said in my previous post "
The point here though is that the calls which Harden didn't receive shouldn't be open to interpretation because they were clearly fouls within the current law of the game.".
They were clear calls, no matter who the player, the issue in this case was that reputation preceded him so perhaps there was a slight bias at play though I don't think it's systematic against the Rockets.
Furthermore that's compounded by the fact that foul calls change in the post season which they shouldn't.

Asking for consistency is hardly whining and bitching, it's a fair request, GSW are hard enough to beat without refs missing obvious calls.
Pretty sure Kerr has been calling for rule changes to technicals because The Bash Brothers can't avoid getting technicals.

Elmer Jones

Hitch2222 wrote: »

Again I'm not arguing that, as I said in my previous post "
The point here though is that the calls which Harden didn't receive shouldn't be open to interpretation because they were clearly fouls within the current law of the game.".
They were clear calls, no matter who the player, the issue in this case was that reputation preceded him so perhaps there was a slight bias at play though I don't think it's systematic against the Rockets.
Furthermore that's compounded by the fact that foul calls change in the post season which they shouldn't.

Asking for consistency is hardly whining and bitching, it's a fair request, GSW are hard enough to beat without refs missing obvious calls.
Pretty sure Kerr has been calling for rule changes to technicals because The Bash Brothers can't avoid getting technicals.

There is always going to be inconsistency with the refs, teams need to just deal with this. All foul calls are open to interpretation and can be subject to errors in a sport like basketball.

All the Rockets are trying to do is to put pressure on the refs and hope they'll deliberately balance things out by giving them everything in the upcoming games.

I have no time for those sort of mind games across all sports and the Rockets should shut there mouths and get on with playing.

The nonsense report they did on last years series from them is simply pathetic.

https://sports.yahoo.com/report-rockets-have-research-that-shows-warriors-get-favorable-officiating-172417632.html

Hitch2222

Elmer Jones wrote: »

There is always going to be inconsistency with the refs, teams need to just deal with this. All foul calls are open to interpretation and can be subject to errors in a sport like basketball.

All the Rockets are trying to do is to put pressure on the refs and hope they'll deliberately balance things out by giving them everything in the upcoming games.

I have no time for those sort of mind games across all sports and the Rockets should shut there mouths and get on with playing.

The nonsense report they did on last years series from them is simply pathetic.

https://sports.yahoo.com/report-rockets-have-research-that-shows-warriors-get-favorable-officiating-172417632.html

I don't think I could disagree with much of the above tbh. The only thing I'd say is that I disagree with is the bolded, not all calls/fouls are open to interpretation which is where we probably disagree. Some fouls are clear cut while others certainly are ambiguous. Our disagreement probably lies in the fact that I think some of the calls against Harden lay in the first group while you feel they lay in the second.

I agree the report is pretty cringe stuff but if a potential edge exists in terms of influencing officials then why not use it.
It's a game of fine margins so anything that tips the balance of power in your favour is fair game.
I wouldn't mind a rule preventing this type of thing in the future during a series but unless I'm missing something so far it seems fine for now.

DaveyDave

I'll be in Toronto when Raptors vs 76'ers Game 5 is on. €250 for two nosebleed seats. Tempting.

K.O.Kiki

Kyle Lowry smh

What was he thinking with that nutmeg?
I still have the Raptors in 6; the Sixers don't seem to have an answer to Kawhi & his synergy with Danny Green will save the Raps.

Also Sixers played Simmons & Butler 44/43 minutes respectively and barely closed it out.

Carcharodon

Really looking forward to the game tonight, over 15 years following Warriors and this season has been the most boring, (well maybe not) but finally some spice this season, Rockets will come out all guns blazing.

Carcharodon

Harden rolling around like Neymar already, pretty sad .

DreamsBurnDown

Carcharodon wrote: »

Harden rolling around like Neymar already, pretty sad .

Green got him good.

Carcharodon

DreamsBurnDown wrote: »

Green got him good.

Yea, he caught him alright, wasn’t malicious, just one of those things.
Harden was complaining in the first few minutes after a few stops on him, I honestly thought he was faking just to get out of the game

Morrison J

Rockets need to learn to box out

Morrison J

Between Rockets turnovers, Warriors offensive rebounding and the Harden injury I think thats a win for the Rockets to only be down single digits at the half. Not sure how they are.

Carcharodon

Yea, they have done well, pretty much down to Rivers with some big shots.